Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force Thread

Musashi_kenshin

Active Member
I'm not sure I accept that a ski-jump carrier with F-35Bs can be considered purely "defensive" whereas a CATOBAR carrier with F-35Cs would be "offensive". A carrier can be used defensively or offensively. I remember back in the day when it was firmly believed by all sides that any sort of fixed-wing aircraft carrier for the MSDF would be completley unconstitutional. Then the MSDF poked at the boundaries by having through-deck helicopter "destroyers". Now the boundaries have been pushed again by the F-35B.

If Japan went for larger carriers with F-35Cs, the decision would be political, not legal. I'm unaware of a single case that has gone through the Japanese courts in the last 10 years interpreting what the MSDF can and can't do, and where the decision has restricted the Japanese government's procurement plans.

It's also important to remember that Japan has already announced plans to order the JASSM-ER, which is objectively an offensive weapon.


(If anything this is old news, as plans to buy JASSM-ER were announced years ago.)

No legal cases have been brought successfully against that, nor have any of the major parties sought to block the purchase on the basis that it's unconstitutional.

Besides, significantly larger carriers are not going to be built tomorrow, nor will there be a sudden order of F-35Cs. I think any decision won't be at least for another 5 years, when the converted Izumos are ready and the public has seen and accepted ship-launched fighters.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
With every passing day, Xi’s absolute control of the CCP along with his increasing bold provocative moves will completely erode any opposition to Japanese enhancement of their military capability domestically. The same applies to other countries in the region with the economic means to do so. I would be willing to bet Japan has an accelerated plan for nuclear weapons production that would see deployable weapons in months, not years given the threat both Xi and Kim present along with a questionable US commitment to defend allies worldwide.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
With every passing day, Xi’s absolute control of the CCP along with his increasing bold provocative moves will completely erode any opposition to Japanese enhancement of their military capability domestically. The same applies to other countries in the region with the economic means to do so. I would be willing to bet Japan has an accelerated plan for nuclear weapons production that would see deployable weapons in months, not years given the threat both Xi and Kim present along with a questionable US commitment to defend allies worldwide.
Agree with your assessment regarding Xi. I am now of the opinion that he seems himself not only the equal of the Great Helmsman, but superior to him, and that he will push as much as he can in foreign adventures to divert the masses from the problems and crackdowns at home.

I think that the SKs are going to have to grow up and put the past in the past and start working with the Japanese in common defence against the PRC. Pushback, jointly, both nations in the maritime domain against the PRC is actually needed. Neither country can no longer count on the US being a reliable ally and I am of the opinion that this state of affairs will not change even if there is a change in the occupancy of the White House come November.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Wikipedia isn't a reliable source. I will still stand by what I said because I believe that F-35C and CATOBAR CV are bridge to far at the moment precisely because of their constitution. The Diet may have changed laws but there is still significant domestic political opposition to it. The F-35B and the STOVL carriers still meet the criteria for the law changes and helping out allies, but also I think save a certain amount of face with the domestic audience. There's a lot more at play here than there would be in say South Korea or Singapore.
Is this good enough for you?

The new laws allow Japan’s Self-Defense Forces to defend the country’s close allies in combat for the first time under its constitution, which renounces “war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes.”

The laws also allow SDF troops to defend weapons platforms of foreign countries contributing to Japan’s defense, while providing a standing legislative procedure for overseas troop deployments. Any use of force must be used only when there is no other option and to the minimum extent required, according to the new legal changes.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Is this good enough for you?



The operative phrase in there, especially with regard to protecting allied and friendly forces, is the minimum extent required. Like I said there are domestic politics and considerations at play here that we wouldn't normally factor in, because we are of a different culture and have a different history.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Active Member

Most of the article is not news, but the following was interesting.

...while the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force has asked for $937.2 million and $654.1 million respectively to acquire two more frigates and the first boat of a new class of attack submarine.
I hadn't realised Japan was already seeking to move on from the Soryu. Is it going to be a sub-class or entirely new boat?

Also good to see the frigate orders continue. It looks like the surface fleet might be expanding a bit, as Japan has plans to build 22 frigates in order to replace 14 destroyer-escorts.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

Most of the article is not news, but the following was interesting.



I hadn't realised Japan was already seeking to move on from the Soryu. Is it going to be a sub-class or entirely new boat?

Also good to see the frigate orders continue. It looks like the surface fleet might be expanding a bit, as Japan has plans to build 22 frigates in order to replace 14 destroyer-escorts.
"and the first boat of a new class of attack submarine."

From which i understand the construction of the last boat of the planned 12 Soryuu Class, SS-512, is almost finished.
The exterior of the new 29SS class will not differ much compared to the Soryuu class. Its more the inside that differs, like new sensors and probably also new torpedoes.

 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
It seems that only $220.000.000 of the requested $52,1 billion 2021 year budget will be used for the modification of the Izumo.

 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
seems that only $220.000.000 of the requested $52,1 billion 2021 year budget will be used for the modification of the Izumo.
USD 220 Mio for modifications works seems quite big. However if talking on changing Helicopter Carrier for Fixed Wing capable Carrier, then it's not really that big. This shown from beginning of design Izumo and Kaga already being prepared for this.

I'm still think that JMSDF will evolve the design for more appropriate carrier, perhaps as Hyuga replacement later on. The way Japanese work always on step by step evolving progress. JMSDF after all already have enough escorts fleet for up to 4 carrier group.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Active Member
It seems that only $220.000.000 of the requested $52,1 billion 2021 year budget will be used for the modification of the Izumo.
I'm fairly sure that the MSDF are only planning the coversion to be completed after several years. I guess that rather than taking it out of service for a long period of time to do all the work at once they'll be doing it incrimentally as it comes back to port.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
The first of the new Taigei 29SS class is recently launched.
The hull design of the Taigei-class is said to not differ too much from the Sōryū-class but will be 100 tons heavier than its predecessor.



MHI Just Launched The First Of The New Taigei-Class Submarines For JMSDF
Japan's newest submarine “Taigei” (previously known as 29SS) was launched today at the Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) shipyard in Kobe, Hyogo Prefecture.

The external appearance of the Taigei is not much different from the Sōryū-class, but inside of it is a completely different submarine. First, the Taigei uses lithium-ion batteries instead of the 4V-275R Mk. III AIP system, which was installed aboard the first 10 Sōryū-class submarines.

 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Standard Displacement: about 3000 tons
Length: 84 meters
Total width: 9.1 meters
Crew: about 70
Propulsion: Diesel Electric Propulsion (with lithium-ion batteries)
Scheduled for commissioned: March 2022

The designation “29SS” is derived from the 29th year of the reign of Emperor Akihito, otherwise known to everyone else as 2017, and SS is shorthand for non-nuclear attack submarine. 29SS retains the general hull form of earlier submarines but with some important changes; including the use of new accoustic absorbent materials and a floating floor structure to make it quieter. It is also equipped with Torpedo Counter Measures, which ejects decoys to evade enemy torpedoes for improved survivability.
The 1st of the "Taigei" (big whale) class submarines was launched on 14 October 2020 at the Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd‘s Kobe Shipyard, has accommodations for female crew members; it will be used as a test submarine, according to the “National Defense Program Guidelines for FY 2019 and beyond” published in December 2018. In other words, Taigei will be a dedicated boat as the Capability & Technology Demonstrator on JMSDF submarines.
  • 6x 533mm torpedo tubes
  • ZQQ-8 sonar suite
    ZPS-6H surface search radar
  • NZLR-2 electronic support measures (ESM) system
  • ZQX-12 submarine tactical display system
  • Photonics mast
  • combat management system that includes OYX-1
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
  • 6x 533mm torpedo tubes
  • ZQQ-8 sonar suite
    ZPS-6H surface search radar
  • NZLR-2 electronic support measures (ESM) system
  • ZQX-12 submarine tactical display system
  • Photonics mast
  • combat management system that includes OYX-1
Cool, including promotion poster in chibi manga/anime style... The remarkable thing is that the girls in games and series like Kantai Collection and Azur Lane are never submarines...
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Best blog write up on the latest JMSF submarine that I have seen — by a former Singaporean Naval Officer — he took the trouble to translate the Japanese specifications in a manner that can be understood.

Taigei-Class Specifications

Displacement ( surface ) : 3000 Tonnes
Displacement ( submerged ) : 4200+ Tonnes?
Length 84.0m
Beam 9.1m
Draught : 10.4m
Complement : 70
Engine Type : Diesel-Electric
Storage : Lithium-Ion Battery - Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminium Oxide ( NCA ) ?
Propulsion : Screw Propeller x 1
Speed : 20 knots submerged
Range : ?
Operational Depth : ?

C4ISTAR

Submarine Combat Management System ( 潜水艦情報管理システム )
Core Network System ? ( 基幹ネットワークシステム )
Submarine Tactical Display System ZQX-12 ( 潜水艦戦術状況表示装置 )
Information Processing Subsystem OYX-1 ( 情報処理サブシステム )
Electronic Support Measures : NZLR-2 ( 電波探知装置 )
Surface Search Radar : ZPS-6H ( 対水上捜索用レーダ )
Sonar : ZQQ-8 Fiber-Optic Array ( ソナー ) ( 水中音波探知機 )
Periscope : Non-penetrating Periscope Type 1 Mod 1 ( 非貫通式潜望鏡1型改1 )


Armament

HU-606 21 inch ( 533mm ) Torpedo Tubes x 6 ( 魚雷発射管 )
Type 18 Heavyweight Torpedo ( 18式長魚雷 )
UGM-84 Harpoon Missile ( ハープーン対艦 ミサイル)

Others

Torpedo Countermeasure System ( 潜水艦魚雷防御システム )
Snorkel Power Generation System ( スノーケル発電システム )
 
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