Japan Air Self-Defence Force
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John Fedup
The Bunker Group
I think the cost escalation was the greater concern. NG's B-2 history probably hurt their chances for selection even though some of the cost escalation in that program wasn't their fault. YF-23 certainly was a looker though.
The USAF released it's study on the feasibilty of restarting F-22 production and each new jet would cost $260M. Note that this reflects a base F-22 model using legacy avionics and not up to current standards which would add more cost. The sticker shock of a F-22/F-35 hybrid would be epic.
I saw that too, largely based on a RAND study from 2011
Here’s a good summary. Interesting to note is the section about JDF use. If they paid the restart costs thenflyaway costs seem more reasonable and the JDF would get a fiftieth Gen aircraft in under five years
Here’s The F-22 Production Restart Study The USAF Has Kept Secret For Over A Year
Here’s the actual USAF white paper
F-22A Production Restart Assessment
Tyler Rogoway. Very authoritative source. If you ignore his track record and almost everything else.
oldsig
Joe Black
Active Member
Just a thought, what if the US govt finally agree to develop an export version of the F-22 (replacing the F-22's avionics with the F-35's version with a up-scaled APG-81, replace the F-22 stealth coating with F-35's version, and replace the F-119 engines with F-135 engines, would that work?
If JSDF gets around 100 planes, whilst the USAF get another 100+, perhaps the RAF, RAAF, IAF could throw their lots with with about 40 planes each, would this work? Would it make it viable to restart the production?
If JSDF gets around 100 planes, whilst the USAF get another 100+, perhaps the RAF, RAAF, IAF could throw their lots with with about 40 planes each, would this work? Would it make it viable to restart the production?
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Such changes to the aircraft would make it essentially an entirely new aircraft, and not an "export version" of the F-22. Incidentally, the Obey amendment is still in place AFAIK, which bars the US gov't from any expenditure which would involve exporting the F-22.
Replacing the F-22 avionics for F-35 avionics would require re-working what is wired where, since the F-35 using a fiber optic wiring harness. To replace the engines would also require not only re-working where the engines are fitted, but likely also changing the size/location of air intakes and air flow. This is also assuming that the F-135 engine will roughly fit into the space an F-119 engine fits.
At some point, an aircraft stops being a new version of an old design and is instead an entirely new design. I suspect that is what would occur if one tried to fit F-35 systems onto an F-22 airframe.
Incidentally, if a new aircraft is going to be designed, why try developing yet another 5th gen fighter to add to the F-22 and F-35 and instead why not figure out what will define a 6th gen fighter and work towards that.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
If there had been no export ban, we would not being having this conversation. The additional export orders would have enabled more domestic orders by lowering the overall costs per unit. The F-35 delays would have spurred sales somewhat as well. At this point, the F-22 rebirth is pure fantasy as is any third 5th Gen jet from the US. A 5th Gen from either Europe or Japan might happen but it would coincide with the arrival of 6th Gen US jet some 15-20 years from now. China might have a 5.5 Gen by then too.
The looming Western debt problem really requires a combined approach for developing high technology kit that will be needed to compete with China. Whether this is politically possible is questionable.
The looming Western debt problem really requires a combined approach for developing high technology kit that will be needed to compete with China. Whether this is politically possible is questionable.
The conclusions Tyler draws from the report are flawed but the report itself is quoted in full so you can just draw your own conclusions from that report - I'm minded to feel that as some of the components are no longer made and the architecture is pretty antiquated that building more F22 would be expensive and pointless.
SpazSinbad
Active Member
'Fiber Mat' is one term used to describe the skin of most of the F-35, a structural component of the aircraft. Not much more has been said about it then 'til now AFAIK. Then there is a stealth covering/paint on top with any joins having special stealth stuff. Some of this latter material will be used on the F-22 maintenance cycle but an F-22 could not be built out of 'fiber mat'. As some have suggested it is pointless to modify the F-22 new builds with anything other than 'design a new aircraft' and that seems to be happening with '6th gen future'. BTW the RAAF have repeatedly stated that they were never interested and still not interested in the F-22. The RAAF require a multi-tasker such as the old Hornet/Super Hornet and now the new F-35A (chuck in some Bs at the end to make this old codger happy). 
Joe Black
Active Member
To think F-22 as just a stealthy air supremacy fighter is misguided. I think RAAF would rethink the role F-22 played in the USAF and would probably warm to it. How the Raptors were utilised in Syria would give us the hint. It is in fact an invisible mini AEW / battle space controller which employed correctly with F-35s and the Growlers would be a true force multiplier (in magnitude never envisioned before). Just having a few Raptors would totally transform how one would fight a much greater force. I suspect JSDF would be traversing down this path.'. BTW the RAAF have repeatedly stated that they were never interested and still not interested in the F-22. The RAAF require a multi-tasker such as the old Hornet/Super Hornet and now the new F-35A (chuck in some Bs at the end to make this old codger happy).
SpazSinbad
Active Member
Well one has to think years ago when the choice was made for the F-35A by the RAAF. At that time the F-22 was ONLY air supremacy (and NOT available) with some addons coming later on along with this new 'role' against insurgents with 4th Gen the bomb droppers. So no - this does not sound like something the RAAF needs/wants - even today (not only because the F-22 is still no longer available). The RAAF over the last decade has improved their networking / long range skills with an HUGE number of new assets. And still the F-22 is NOT on the table.
Take the concept of the F-35 being an EVEN BETTER quarterback and networker (as long as the other ADF assets are able to network with it) and you will have the last tranche being F-35Bs able to protect the ARMY or the ARMY on NAVY ships as required doing the NETWORKING NODE thing and providing the COP Common Operating Picture etc.
So the F-35B (along with the already purchased 72 F-35As) able to network seamlessly with the A model can be so much more useful compared to some mythical not able to be purchased F-22. OMG F-35Bs on LHDs as required but mostly up forward supporting ARMY from FOBs etc and jumping about unable to be found both ashore and possibly afloat if ADF gets their NETWORKING act together.
Take the concept of the F-35 being an EVEN BETTER quarterback and networker (as long as the other ADF assets are able to network with it) and you will have the last tranche being F-35Bs able to protect the ARMY or the ARMY on NAVY ships as required doing the NETWORKING NODE thing and providing the COP Common Operating Picture etc.
So the F-35B (along with the already purchased 72 F-35As) able to network seamlessly with the A model can be so much more useful compared to some mythical not able to be purchased F-22. OMG F-35Bs on LHDs as required but mostly up forward supporting ARMY from FOBs etc and jumping about unable to be found both ashore and possibly afloat if ADF gets their NETWORKING act together.
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I think you'll find that the capacity of the F-35 to act as a mini-AEW/battel space controller is a full generation advanced over the F-22 and the reverse is likely to be the case. Where it's widely "understood" that the F-22 has the advantage is in kinetic manouvre and range, not sensors and computer and communications integration
oldsig
SpazSinbad
Active Member
AGREE - exackerly. It was not until the beginning RED FLAGs last year that the F-35B then A could show their worth to their peers (and others). Not only did they take down the threats but hung about Winchester to keep the 4th Gen viable and on target and withdraw. How about F-35Bs able to launch SMs from ships when ships cannot see target but the F-35B/C can? The F-35C is due to demonstrate this from an actual ship in our winter this year (rather than earlier an F-35B demo SM launched from a desert ship). How cannot this be useful for FLEET DEFENCE along with the intelligence gathering to transmit to all assets around at the time. Not a peep from RAN. ARMY is going to wake up that they need protection at sea.
MEANWHILE the Japanese are getting onboard with the idea of F-35Bs on their flat deck 'destroyers' - GO JAPAN! BANZAI!
MEANWHILE the Japanese are getting onboard with the idea of F-35Bs on their flat deck 'destroyers' - GO JAPAN! BANZAI!
I'm not sure that it is the F-35's are able to launch weapons off other platforms, but more their sensor data can be incorporated in the wider network. I think the term they used is elevated sensor.
Navy Conducts First Live Fire NIFC-CA Test with F-35
I believe currently Australia intends to cover most of that capability with the E7 wedgetails and the new G550 AEWAC's which have radars as big as the F-35 plane itself. The F-35 electronic capabilities are good but still niche and complimentary, I think there would be a number of cases where it would be useful to have the F-35 not using any of its active sensors and just being passive most of the time.
When it comes to actual weapons being launched, being able to have that sensor able to ensure it can provide better data to the weapons and decision making process. SM-6 with its much longer range, LRASM with it much longer range are going to be ideal partners with this.
Navy Conducts First Live Fire NIFC-CA Test with F-35
I believe currently Australia intends to cover most of that capability with the E7 wedgetails and the new G550 AEWAC's which have radars as big as the F-35 plane itself. The F-35 electronic capabilities are good but still niche and complimentary, I think there would be a number of cases where it would be useful to have the F-35 not using any of its active sensors and just being passive most of the time.
When it comes to actual weapons being launched, being able to have that sensor able to ensure it can provide better data to the weapons and decision making process. SM-6 with its much longer range, LRASM with it much longer range are going to be ideal partners with this.
SpazSinbad
Active Member
Thanks - had not seen that article before with that term IIRC however there were quite a few articles such as this one below (yours 13 Sep 2016):
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SpazSinbad
Active Member
This video get some people in the mood for wot weez speake off...
Maybe the argument is not the cost of the F35B, but rather the cost of not having it.
Regards S
Lets bring the conversation back to the topic. If people want to discuss Australian F-35Bs then the RAN / RAAF threads would be more appropriate.