Italian Navy Discussions and Updates

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SolarisKenzo

Active Member
The Italian Navy Chief of Staff spoke to Parliament in a hearing on the state of the armed forces.
Some main points:

- Navy is 5k men short. ( 30k currently, 35k minimum to guarantee operativity )
- Funding and time problems ( FREMM 11-12 and Lhd Trieste suffered delays after during/after covid pandemics )

Current main programs:
- The last 2 FREMMs will be asw enhanced.
- Lhd Trieste ready in early 2024
- PPA light will be upgraded to full config.
- U-212NFS and DDX will be equipped with cruise missiles, very likely to be SCALP NAVAL ( the competitor was the Tomahawk but for political reasons they preferred the french missile, still not official yet )
- DDX destroyers suffered changes during the design and are very likely to exceed 13.5/14k tons ( basically a Zumwalt cruiser )

Future programs:
Admiral Credendino explained the need for:
- 5k men, possibly 2.5k in short time
- 4 new FREMM asw
- 2 additional DDX ( 4 total )
- 2 more u212NFS ( 6 in total + 4 u212a )
- 1 new aircraft carrier and more f35b

This of course were his demands, parliament could easily approve nothing.
link :

evento | WebTV

webtv.camera.it webtv.camera.it
 
M

Meriv90

Active Member
StingrayOZ said:
There was some talk about modules, and austal had some ideas made out of aluminium.

The module thing I think still has merit for a tier 2 type vessel, that can't do every role all at once, but can embark some capability when needed.

The whole OPV-Patrol-Corvette-light Frigate is pretty much a blurry continuum these days. Take the Gowind thing, its as blurry as all hell, it can be a 1000t OPV, or a 3,100t frigate. The Italian Thaon di Revel class is a 4800t -6000t OPV but can sometimes embark up to ~150, operate two helos, 5" + 76mm, land attack/antiship, aster 30, 6 torpedo's and 2 xsh90.. They are offering these to greece with two dedicated corvettes. But we are talking about 21 days endurance here. Which is fine for Greece, its not like they have to go far to find Turkey. But in the Australian context we wouldn't even get out of WA EEZ.

Again Im not sure if our weakness is air defence. Im not sure we are looking at small air defence ships. It might be a flexible role we want to sometimes embark, but Im not sure its our focus.
Click to expand...
THE PPA of which this video just came out.


Was an escamotage to get frigates with an adverse public opinion, it was during the migrant crisis so for example if you go and watch the renderings:

(Should be an official rendering from Fincantieri if i remember correctly)

You can see the giant red cross containers. It was even advertised for energy production in case of disaster(earthquake). It was sold as "dual use". Also for that the 3 configurations.

And if not wrong we are going to convert the Lights in FULL version.

We got the frigates we needed for what we call Enlarged Mediterrean.


From an admiral blog.

Because our FREMM were and are getting too much attrition, consumption, doing missions like anti-piracy where they are too much, or show the flag like is doing the Morosini right now.

131 mens on board (space for 173) very high speed and the new cockpit for fast decisions. I think you can give them the esplorative/screening role mainly.

But they are frigates called OPV to be able to order them.

On Greece our offering is different.

www.navalnews.com

Fincantieri reveals details of its FCx30 Corvette Proposal to Greece - Naval News

Naval News met with Fincantieri for an exclusive interview on the Italian shipbuilder's FCx30 proposal for the Greek corvette program.
www.navalnews.com www.navalnews.com

We are offering the highly armed corvette that we sold to Qatar and that probably is going to have high commonality with the future EPC.

Short legged armed corvette is what the Greeks need after all.
 
StingrayOZ

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Meriv90 said:
THE PPA of which this video just came out.
Click to expand...
Wow.. I had heard they are pretty different but that bridge, sorry, cockpit, is straight out of sci-fi! Having the large screen tv pop out of the captains console (chefs kiss).

They are very odd looking ships from the outside.
Meriv90 said:
Because our FREMM were and are getting too much attrition, consumption, doing missions like anti-piracy where they are too much, or show the flag like is doing the Morosini right now.
Click to expand...
Which highlights the issues with just only having large ships. Although they are still pretty big ships, I would imagine that Italy has similar issues to many navies where the crew number and cost is the most significant part of the cost. Why tie up 200 crew and a high end warship performing a mission that 60 or 100 crew ship could do. You could have 2-3 times the number of ships doing these smaller missions, which they are more suitable for meaning more big ships available for missions, more missions able to be completed, more points of presence, easier to crew, better retention.

Meriv90 said:
And if not wrong we are going to convert the Lights in FULL version.
Click to expand...
This is up gunning done right. Have a ship with all the systems, features, space for weapons built, then when you want them (which is nearly always), you can easily fit them in a ship designed and built for those weapons.

Meriv90 said:
Short legged armed corvette is what the Greeks need after all.
Click to expand...
Indeed, if you can see the enemy literally from your territory, there is no need to build long endurance ships. However, Australia doesn't have the wonderful benefit of having our enemy close. For some reason, all our likely enemies are thousands of kilometers away. The distance between Turkey and Greece in an Australian context wouldn't even get out of the training area.
 
S

SolarisKenzo

Active Member
Italian Navy to finally acquire MdCN ( Missile de Croisiere Naval ), also ( incorrectly ) known as SCALP-NAVAL.
According to RID, a first preliminary contract will be signed within this year between Italy and France.
Being the MdCN a MBDA product, the purchase will be hugely simplified for Italy.
www.rid.it

RID Rivista Italiana Difesa - Missile de Croisière Naval per l’Italia: ci siamo?

Missile de Croisière Naval per l’Italia: ci siamo?
www.rid.it www.rid.it
The missile will be likely used by the new U-212 NFS, DDX and FREMM-EVO.
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
StingrayOZ said:
Indeed, if you can see the enemy literally from your territory, there is no need to build long endurance ships. However, Australia doesn't have the wonderful benefit of having our enemy close. For some reason, all our likely enemies are thousands of kilometers away. The distance between Turkey and Greece in an Australian context wouldn't even get out of the training area.
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I've walked from Turkey to Greece. It's further than you'd expect from the size of the river, but it still only took a few minutes to cross the bridge, despite pausing to show my passport to the unfriendly (in contrast to the Turks, who wished me farewell & shook my hand) Greek soldiers in the middle.

It wouldn't get out of my street.
 
M

Meriv90

Active Member
ngatimozart said:
Ahem SCUBA wasn't around during WW1.
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en.wikipedia.org

Raid on Pula - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

he Raid on Pula (Italian: Impresa di Pola) was a maritime raid undertaken on 1 November 1918 at the end of World War I. It was carried out with a manned torpedo by two officers of the Italian Regia Marina, Raffaele Paolucci and Raffaele Rossetti, with the goal of damaging what they thought was an Austro-Hungarian fleet anchored in the bay of Pula
Click to expand...

Not Scuba yet, but still frogmen operation that sank a dreadnought
 
7

76mmGuns

Active Member
One thing that puzzles me is why the Italians need a 14000 ton destroyer to put 64 VLS on. Sure, I understand there's sensors, electronics , computer rooms etc, but it looks like less than 10% of the ship's total length. It's about the same length as a tico which has 122 VLS. I do like that they have made space for multiple 76mm guns, but that's not that much space or weight.

Is the weight from creature comforts like carpets, king size beds and 5 star restaurant facilities? (yes, I do know it's not)
 
S

SolarisKenzo

Active Member
76mmGuns said:
One thing that puzzles me is why the Italians need a 14000 ton destroyer to put 64 VLS on. Sure, I understand there's sensors, electronics , computer rooms etc, but it looks like less than 10% of the ship's total length. It's about the same length as a tico which has 122 VLS. I do like that they have made space for multiple 76mm guns, but that's not that much space or weight.

Is the weight from creature comforts like carpets, king size beds and 5 star restaurant facilities? (yes, I do know it's not)
Click to expand...
I can do some guesses based on what I know about the DDX program.
1) These ships will have major command-and-control facilities, to be able to operate as a lead ship in a naval group.
Italy's major units ( Cavour and Trieste, won't count Garibaldi as she's going to be decommissioned soon ) are also multirole units and won't always be at sea, so the Navy needs more Command-capable units to work with frigates, OPVs, corvettes and destroyers.
Such facilities requires a lot of space.
2) The current displacement is not definitive. RID reported that the Navy is trying to cut the displacement to 13000/13500, but since the project is not completed yet... we can only speculate about the true size of these ships
3) VLS number is unlikely to be 64.
64 was actually a number that some magazines reported before the war in Ukraine, but it was not including the A70 sylver VLS to carry cruise missiles.
I'd say the total number of VLS will be something near 96, but I dont have any confirmation yet.

Anyway, think about a flight 3 Burke.
Such unit has a displacement of around 10k tons.
Now, to a flight 3 Burke, you have to add 3x76mm, command and control facilities ( USN places such facilities on CVNs and CGs ) and probably more.
A Type 055 also is around 13k tons.
So, the new italian destroyers/cruisers are really big ships, but nothing extraordinary...
 
M

Meriv90

Active Member
They were still expecting attacks, or just wanted to be sure, in fact all defensive measures and procedures were still up at the moment of the raid.

Or for example they wouldn't have been caught up if there were no defensive measures or patrols.
 
M

Meriv90

Active Member
76mmGuns said:
One thing that puzzles me is why the Italians need a 14000 ton destroyer to put 64 VLS on. Sure, I understand there's sensors, electronics , computer rooms etc, but it looks like less than 10% of the ship's total length. It's about the same length as a tico which has 122 VLS. I do like that they have made space for multiple 76mm guns, but that's not that much space or weight.

Is the weight from creature comforts like carpets, king size beds and 5 star restaurant facilities? (yes, I do know it's not)
Click to expand...
I add my personal opinion to what Solaris Kenzo alraedy wrote, why upping the game on the amount of VLS in the Med? To start a armament race like in the Pacific area? IMHO like the FREMM it is going to start with X amount of VLS and it will be FFBNW for more VLS in case of need.
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
Meriv90 said:
They were still expecting attacks, or just wanted to be sure, in fact all defensive measures and procedures were still up at the moment of the raid.

Or for example they wouldn't have been caught up if there were no defensive measures or patrols.
Click to expand...
Er - no. Between the raid setting off & being out of contact, & reaching Pula, the new State of Serbs, Croats & Slovenes took possession of the port & the ships & declared its neutrality - & informed the allies. The Italian navy couldn't recall the raiders, but could have told the navy of the State of Serbs, Croats & Slovenes of the raid. It didn't. That may have been because the high command didn't know what was happening, or didn't know who to contact, or simply didn't think of it: it wasn't necessarily deliberate.

No blame can be attached to the frogmen. They had no idea that they were attacking a neutral ship.
 
S

SolarisKenzo

Active Member
The President of the Republic aboard the ITS Cavour to commemorate the 80th Anniversary of the sinking of the Battleship Roma, the largest warship of the Regia Marina and the third Littorio-class Battleship.
Roma was sunk by german Fritz-X guided bombs on the 9th of Semptember 1943, carrying 1,393 men ( including High Admiral Bergamini, commander of the entire Italian fleet ) down with her.


Some more about the Roma, if anyone is interested

en.wikipedia.org

Italian battleship Roma (1940) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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