Indonesian Aero News

[r0m8470]

IMHO:
The 2 SU-35 that are supposed to appear for Armed Forces Day parade may be destined originally for RuAF, but then diverted for Indo AF. This is possible if the configuration purchased by Indo is similar to what RuAF will get. We've seen this before, where BAe diverted Typhoon production to meet RSAF early delivery requirement.

Sukhoi may agree to this, with the right incentive, or if the contract is important enough to them. With global commodity price, especially oil and gas, not doing as well as their projection (I don't know what their projection is), they may be willing to divert for the first 2.

Part of my curiosty - and I posted this before - is that Indo AF does not seem to develop proper operational doctrine, or not equip their platform with right set of ordnance. Everything is done in haphazard way, and no clear structure. They seem to be content utilizing F-16s and the existing Flankers as bomb trucks. I am not sure how survivable that is in a medium to high intensity conflict. Maybe they are confident enough that in such scenario, they will be facing the opponents (PRC) jointly with other PacRim nations (read: Australia, and the US).

It is also interesting that the current admin seem to orient North for future threats (fortifying Ranai at Natuna, renaming the waters around Natuna as Natuna sea, as opposed to So China sea - which in a way pissing on PRC), but yet the current purchases of UAV, anti ship missiles and CIWS are from China.

 

[Ananda]

IMHO:
The 2 SU-35 t

Part of my curiosty - and I posted this before - is that Indo AF does not seem to develop proper operational doctrine, or not equip their platform with right set of ordnance. Everything is done in haphazard way, and no clear structure. They seem to be content utilizing F-16s and the existing Flankers as bomb trucks. I am not sure how survivable that is in a medium to high intensity conflict. Maybe they are confident enough that in such scenario, they will be facing the opponents (PRC) jointly with other PacRim nations (read: Australia, and the US).

It is also interesting that the current admin seem to orient North for future threats (fortifying Ranai at Natuna, renaming the waters around Natuna as Natuna sea, as opposed to So China sea - which in a way pissing on PRC), but yet the current purchases of UAV, anti ship missiles and CIWS are from China.

I believe is not that TNI-AU did not have clear doctrine, however their doctrine is being dictated with what limitation that available for them. They are off course can't developed doctrine on more specialise force structure, since their force structure is limited, thus everything has to be developed for multipurpose capabilities. Hawk 200 for example, eventough on paper, they are being stated as Attack Aircraft, but in reality on day to day, they are part on multipurpose patrol force including Air Interception. For that all Flankers and F-16, eventough their main job being stated in Air Interception, but they have to be prepared also for ground attack.

As for defense procurement from China, well it's part of Indonesian diplomacy. As like Infrastructure projects, like High Speed train, Indonesia give one project to China and another one to Japan. The defense procurement also being spread from US, Russia, ROK, Europe, local producers and China. It's part of defense logistics strategy on diversification, altough politically the government stated that all procurement has to provide local industry benefits. Indonesia did not want to tell China, "I don't want cooperation on defense with you "..however it want to tell China 'I will have cooperation with you, and with anyone else"..

The Mindef says China the only UCAV producers (with on market products), that willing to cooperate with Indonesia on UCAV..Indonesia also cooperating with Turkey on UAV and UCAV..but Turkey UCAV products is still on development stages, whille Chinese UCAV (especialy Winn Long 1) already being used in combat operstion in middle east. It's simply part law of demand and supply.

 

[STURM]

Hawk 200 for example, eventough on paper, they are being stated as Attack Aircraft, but in reality on day to day, they are part on multipurpose patrol force including Air Interception. For that all Flankers and F-16, eventough their main job being stated in Air Interception, but they have to be prepared also for ground attack.

The Hawk has always had an air to air capability; even if the main reason it was originally bought was to perform the light attack role. It's to be expected that at times, the Hawks will be utilised for roles that don't call for a more expensive F-16 or Su-27/30. Same with the T-50; despite it's roles as a trainer and light attack platform; it does have an air to air capability. Not to the same level of a F-16 or Su-27/30 of course but at times it will be cheaper and more practical to use a T-50.

 

[Ananda]

TNI AU - Bantu distribusi barang di Indonesia Timur, TNI AU Siapkan Pilot terbangkan Airbus A-400 M

From Indonesian AF (TNI-AU) website. The Article talked about CEO of Indonesian Trade Company (PT. PPI), one of the SOE with main business in Trade and Logistics. He mentioned that Ministry of State Owned Enterprise (SOE), will procured 2 A-400 as part of Logistics Infrastructure in Eastern Indonesia.

The plane will be owned and operated by SOE, but will used TNI-AU personals to maintain. Thus this somewhat confirm previous rumours that A-400 deal, will not used Defense Budget and will be operate commercially by Indonesian SOE.

It's somewhat similar with Aeroflot operating military heavy transport.
This is not first time SOE maintain and operate military heavy transport. In Soeharto era, Pelita Air also operating C-160 Transall, which being operated commercially but sometimes being used for TNI purpose.

 

[Ananda]

The Hawk has always had an air to air capability; even if the main reason it was originally bought was to perform the light attack role. It's to be expected that at times, the Hawks will be utilised for roles that don't call for a more expensive F-16 or Su-27/30. Same with the T-50; despite it's roles as a trainer and light attack platform; it does have an air to air capability. Not to the same level of a F-16 or Su-27/30 of course but at times it will be cheaper and more practical to use a T-50.

Yep..that's the point that I make on r0m comment in the matter of TNI-AU Operational structure . Relatively small AF like TNI-AU did not have much luxury to compermentalise their force structure. They're simply not big enough. Thus any part of fleet has to be prepared to take multipurpose job.

 

[40 deg south]

Gentlemen
Any local opinion on recent reports that Indonesia has signed up for two A400s? I've got one link from the US and one from Indonesia below. As far as I understand, the aircraft would be bought by a government-owned corporation, flown by Air Force crew, and used for disaster relief, civilian logistics and what could be generally called 'nation-building'.

Alert 5 » Indonesia to buy two A400Ms to move goods - Military Aviation News

Pesan Dua Unit, Indonesia Bakal Gunakan Airbus A400M untuk Operator Sipil – Indomiliter.com

This follows the signing of a preliminary letter of intent in March 2017.

Indonesia signs letter-of-intent to buy Airbus A400M transport aircraft

The purchasing method is highly unusual - could it indicate the Air Force does not want to fund the A400? I'm sure you will be able to access more info on local websites and blogs than I can find in English.

UPDATE
While I was typing this post, Janes have also reported the sale.

Indonesia confirms A400M acquisition plan | Jane's 360

 

[Ananda]

Ahh..I already repply on A-400 thread. Here's what I can summarise:

One, this A-400 deal officially not for TNI, but for SOE business. Thus will be used commercially. However TNI-AU personels will be involved on maintaining and fly the aircraft. As I mentioned on my post, this practise already been done before with Pelita Air operating Transall and L-100 with some TNI-AU involvement, during Soeharto era.

Two, from local media, blog and forum. There are indications that TNI-AU want to used it's transport budget for C-130J. TNI-AU seems addamant they are only want to used their budget on C-130 family on based of their current suporting infrastructure.

On other hand the SOE ministry want to used the A-400 for logistics commercial need in Eastern Indonesia, where Military type transport deemed more suitable for less developed infrastructure there (compared to Western and Central part of Indonesia), then commercial type Airliner. Thus any suporting infrastructure will be financed by SOE and not TNI budget.

This commercial way around on procurings military heavy lifter also being used by UAE (remember Qatar Airlines operated C-17), and Aeroflot. For the case of Indonesia, in my opinion also seems being used to procured Military type airlifter that're not particularly on TNI-AU taste. Like C-160 Transall in Soeharto era before or 'if' the deals goes through A-400.

I've also mentioned before on this thread, I suspected the SOE ministry also has interest on supporting DI/IAe cloud with Airbus worldwide business. Thus getting A-400 order which are needed by Airbus can also help DI cause.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

"The Indonesian Air Force (Tentara Nasional Indonesia Angkatan Udara: TNI-AU) has confirmed its plans to procure........."
Again an announcement of a confirmation of having plans to buy some A400Ms somewhere in the future, maybe.
No news actually.

Any news about the EH101 saga?
I also have doubts about the finishing of certification of the N219 end this year.

Just some recent "news updates" of the N219 and N245.
Turki Mau Jual Pesawat N219 dan Kembangkan N245 Buatan Bandung

https://finance.detik.com/industri/...88.969117693.1520539148-1357380834.1518922820
Just wait and see what will happen.

 

[Ananda]

Will see on this A-400M, somehow I got a feeling that this will be different than AW-101 and Su-35 due different procurement process.

Again this is not part of TNI-AU and Mindef deal. This is part of SOE business, thus going to be handle through commercial process and Channel.

For AW-101, The sole aircraft still in hangar and still being part of corruption investigation. In my mind, this is part of DI-Airbus effort to scuttle potential rival for Indonesian defense helicopter market. Other suppliers now already thread carefully when facing DI-Airbus on Indonesian market. Thus why Boeing now conducting high level lobby for potential Chinook deal.

This deal basically will not end like this, If AW/Leonardo conducting their deal more carefully. This is not first time AW/Leonardo stumble politically sensitive hurdle in global export market.

 

[Ananda]

TNI AU Beri Sinyal Kuat Pengadaan 5 C-130J Super Hercules

From Angkasa Review website. The new Air Force chief already told media that C-130J seems is the strongest candidate for TNI-AU heavy transport.

This confirm previous info that TNI-AU want newer version of C-130 to strengthen existing C-130 family. Thus C-130 J still the choice after evaluating other candidates from Antonov and Airbus. The AF Chief did not stated the types, but previous reports in local media indicating that C-130J being pitted against AN-70 and A-400.

This will be seperate with previous talk on A-400, since this will used TNI-AU own budget, while the deal on A-400 deal will used SOE (State Owned Enterprise) ministry budget.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

TNI AU Beri Sinyal Kuat Pengadaan 5 C-130J Super Hercules

From Angkasa Review website. The new Air Force chief already told media that C-130J seems is the strongest candidate for TNI-AU heavy transport.

This confirm previous info that TNI-AU want newer version of C-130 to strengthen existing C-130 family. Thus C-130 J still the choice after evaluating other candidates from Antonov and Airbus. The AF Chief did not stated the types, but previous reports in local media indicating that C-130J being pitted against AN-70 and A-400.

This will be seperate with previous talk on A-400, since this will used TNI-AU own budget, while the deal on A-400 deal will used SOE (State Owned Enterprise) ministry budget.

Its still a planning, some kind of "we are wishing for" or "it should be nice if we can get..", they dont talk about contracts, not even about negotiations.
Its for clear that the An-70 wasn't a serious candidate, but it is surprisingly that they choose for 5 (brandnew?) C-130J, and not 10 - 13 C-130Hs, to replace those half century old C-130Bs....

 

[Todjaeger]

Its still a planning, some kind of "we are wishing for" or "it should be nice if we can get..", they dont talk about contracts, not even about negotiations.
Its for clear that the An-70 wasn't a serious candidate, but it is surprisingly that they choose for 5 (brandnew?) C-130J, and not 10 - 13 C-130Hs, to replace those half century old C-130Bs....

It might very well be that there were no suitable C-130H's available. The C-130H design first entered service in March of 1965, so the base design itself is already 50+ years old. As it is, June of this year will mark the 20th anniversary of the C-130J's entry into service.

Now IIRC Indonesia had gotten some refurbished ex-RAAF C-130H's, but I believe those were Vietnam era aircraft. Much like the current Kiwi C-130H's. I have been trying to determine when the last C-130H's came off the production line, but I would expect that was at least around the time the C-130J entered service, if not before.

That would in turn suggest any 2nd hand C-130H's available for purchase would be at least ~20 years old, and likely due for some sort of MLU or SLEP. Between the need to purchase the aircraft, and then any refresh or upgrade to keep the aircraft viable, it may very well have been more cost effective to just purchase 'new' aircraft, or newer, 2nd hand C-130J aircraft.

 

[Ananda]

Just like todjaeger says..getting airworthy second hand C-130H has been done by acquiring ex RAAF C-130 H. With existing C-130H and L-100 in inventory, those ex RAAF can augment C-130 H/L-100 inventory for 2 sq.

But yes, the C-130J seems is going for replacing C-130B in Malang AB. The AF Chief seems indicating the 5 plan C-130J is for first batch.

Unlike Su-35 saga that protracted for several years on planning alone. This C-130J seems having better time line planning. They plan to get the first 5 C-130J after 2019. Thus indicating the process for selection will be done this year, and contract sometime in 2019. We'll see how this progressing.
However historically, somehow the Indonesian AF procurement for Transports proceed more smoothly, then Fighter planes.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

It was predictable, even from the beginning i had the feeling that it was a "too-good-to-be-true" program, like the N250, N2130 and the Klewang Trimaran 63 m programs. Specially with the current administration we could expected this....

DSA 2018: Indonesia considers pulling out of KFX/IFX project
Jon Grevatt, Kuala Lumpur - IHS Jane's Defence Industry
17 April 2018


Key Points

• Indonesia is considering withdrawing from the KFX/IFX development programme with South Korea.
• The reasons for the potential withdrawal include financing, technology sharing, and geopolitical factors.

The Indonesian government is contemplating withdrawing from the programme with South Korea to develop the next-generation Korean Fighter Xperiment/Indonesia Fighter Xperiment (KFX/IFX) aircraft, Jane’s has learnt.

Speaking at the Defence Services Asia (DSA) 2018 exhibition in Kuala Lumpur Indonesian officials said that while the country’s involvement is currently continuing, several key issues are causing debate over whether participation should be terminated.

Indonesia is considering pulling out of the KFX/IFX programme, with a developmental model seen here at IndoDefence in 2016. (IHS Markit/Patrick Allen)

These issues include finances, the degree to which Indonesia is gaining “strategic technical benefits”, and what officials described as 'geopolitical factors'. Officials also indicated that Indonesia’s future participation in the programme is likely to be determined by its senior leadership, including President Joko Widodo.


Complete article at DSA 2018: Indonesia considers pulling out of KFX/IFX project | Jane's 360

I wonder now what the replacement of this program will be, more T-50s, more second hand F-16s or maybe even cheap Chinese trash?

 

[Ananda]

Could be FA-50 or could be Gripen. Don't forgot SAAB still lobbying for Gripen.

However I see this can be part of bargain too. There's part of domestic politics playing, like I have mention long time ago, on this administration simply see KFX/IFX program as part of previous administration projects. Thus they try to get more 'grit' by trying to get more on projects to shown they are better negotiators than previous admin.

On the other hand, there are some genuine concern. The initial thinking on the project is to get as much as off the shelf technology on KFX/IFX in reducing development cost. Turn out some Tech can't be obtain, thus required other sources, which in turn can increase development cost. Some thinking in Indonesian Mindef begin questioning the KAI abilities as main contractors, to keep within projected budget.

Afterall KFX has potential as disruptors for future F-35 market. US as main suppliers of potential off the shelf tech, will not in their incentives to make KFX as cheaper 'near' alternatives for F-35. By withholding some Tech, they push KFX projects to get other suppliers which in turn will asked for relative higher development costs for their tech to developed (compared to US relative more matured ones).

In the end, despites politics..money talks..

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Could be FA-50 or could be Gripen. Don't forgot SAAB still lobbying for Gripen.

However I see this can be part of bargain too. There's part of domestic politics playing, like I have mention long time ago, on this administration simply see KFX/IFX program as part of previous administration projects. Thus they try to get more 'grit' by trying to get more on projects to shown they are better negotiators than previous admin.

On the other hand, there are some genuine concern. The initial thinking on the project is to get as much as off the shelf technology on KFX/IFX in reducing development cost. Turn out some Tech can't be obtain, thus required other sources, which in turn can increase development cost. Some thinking in Indonesian Mindef begin questioning the KAI abilities as main contractors, to keep within projected budget.

Afterall KFX has potential as disruptors for future F-35 market. US as main suppliers of potential off the shelf tech, will not in their incentives to make KFX as cheaper 'near' alternatives for F-35. By withholding some Tech, they push KFX projects to get other suppliers which in turn will asked for relative higher development costs for their tech to developed (compared to US relative more matured ones).

In the end, despites politics..money talks..

"Could be FA-50 or could be Gripen. Don't forgot SAAB still lobbying for Gripen."
Yes, even the EF2000 could be a candidate.

I was also thinking about the TAI TFX, a very similar project to the KAI KFX. TAI is cooperating with BAe in stead of US companies, with many systems made in Turkey and they plan to use the EJ200 for the propulsion, maybe we can join the TFX program....after all, some years ago TAI started negotiations with KAI for joining the KFX program, but they canceled it.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Now there is a newsreport about the Korean ambassador claiming that the program still continue.....
Korsel-Indonesia Lanjutkan Proyek Pengembangan Pesawat Tempur KFX IFX : Okezone News

 

[John Fedup]

It seems these joint ventures in developing stealth jets get bogged down with politics and technology details not to mention the huge amount of money and resources required. The Russia-India program comes to mind. I posted a link in the Military aviation developments thread about a possible new Japanese jet and there is the French-Germany proposal for a 5 Gen jet as well. Even Russia on its own is struggling with its stealth jet. It is possible that China and the US may introduce 6 Gen fighters around the time some of these programs get realized.

 

[anan]

Would it be correct to say that Indonesia only needs 4.5 gen multi-function supersonic turbofan aircraft for air to air combat and suppressing active air defense/SAMs?

For CAS and strategic air strikes and flight training; wouldn't turboprops appear to be ideal? Shouldn't Indonesia buy several more turboprops? Indonesia appears to have three options options:
--Grob G 120TP
--KAI KT-1 Woongbi
--Embraer EMB 314 A29s
Questions:
a) Why does Indonesia have three competing skews? Isn't Indonesia better off consolidating turboprops into one or two skews?
b) Why doesn't Indonesia buy many more turboprops? Wouldn't they pay for themselves in the form of savings from flight training hours and cheaper CAS per mission package?
c) Which skew should Indonesia select to buy additional turboprops? I think Indonesia should choose one. Either KAI KT 1 or A29s. If Indonesia wants to stay in KFX, Indonesia should buy KAI KT 1 as part of the deal. Otherwise Indonesia should choose A29s. The only possible exception would be if Indonesia went for a [TAI TFX + TAI Hürkuş] combination. But I see this as unlikely.

What are everyone's thoughts?

 

[Ananda]

@ Anan
KT 1 being used for Intermediate training, Grob being used as Basic training, and A-29 is OV-10 replacement for COIN and Survailance. Those three are not competing planes, they are for each different functions. KT 1 is basically T-34 Mentor replacements, thus they are not armed versions, which can't be used for COIN engagements. Before OV-10 replacement being choosed, KAI already offered KT 1 armed version for COIN duty (KO 1), but it's still in concept thus TNI-AU decided to go for proven Super Tucano (A-29).
So far, TNI-AU already see this as ballanced approach, and basically those planes are not for new functions, but only replacing older planes in existing functions. Grob replacing AS 202, KT 1 replacing T-34, and A29 replacing OV10. It's a proven concept on turboprop used in TNI-AU, and they see it as working sollution. Thus they are not reinventing the wheel, only using same method with newer planes.

@john
Politics always become factors throughout times on any JV on military equipment. That's why I say in my earlier post, the Indonesian move could be also bargaining ploys. Considering the American refusal for certain key technologies for KFX program, will certainly increase development costs on KFX program. From what I heard, this actually that raise concern in Jakarta on how much KFX/IFX project going to cost in development alone. Whether goes to US tech sources or Euro ones..Indonesia is closer to Euro sources historically on Aerospace Industry, so potential Indonesia want to go along with Euro source (compared to ROK that are more to US source) can be one of potential discussion.

Mind you, the KFX/IFX project so far only to Batch 1, where after that each Partner can choose to still cooperate for Batch 2 and 3, or goes seperate way to developed their own version of further batches.