Indonesian Aero News

[swerve]

The JASDF also operate 4 KC-767. They're replacing them with the KC-46.

Replacing? The first one is just coming up to 10 years in service.

No, they're increasing their tanker force. They've said so. The current fleet is already stretched, & they're planning increased use. They need more capacity.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Indonesia puts KC-46A Pegasus, Airbus A330 in frame for aerial tanker requirement | Jane's 360

Indonesian AF has already ask Mindef for 2 tankers on the class of Airbus MRTT or KC-46. I do believe the odds are on Airbus. With A330 maintenance infrastructure already build in country and in Singapore, plus Airbus has more clout with DI (always a factor in Airframe procurement)..the idea on putting KC-46 is more as procedural steps where any procurement has to get comparison.

Also with Boeing keep delaying induction of KC-46, any order for KC-46 will be prioritise for USAF urgent need on replacing KC-135.

@Sandhi..I do agree with ADMk2..eventough KFX/IFX is not build to directly compete with F-35, But if the project do manage to get end product as designed...it will have relative close capability to F-35, thus potentially will distrube F-35 market in 2030 above.
In some way, this like what US see Lavi project..they see it as potential disruption to F-16 market.

Korea already developing AESA with help from European supplier. This will not provide AESA that in par to F-35's one...but with potential price that are considerably cheaper than F-35, this can also take some slice of potential F-35 market..And US want to get as wide as possible market like F-16 enjoying right now..to get F-35 as economically possible.

Yes, looking to ADMk2's arguments, i think he is right, if the Americans supply such advanced components for the KFX program, they will cut in their own fingers.

"The Americans are very willing to allow the Indonesians to get some ‘advanced’ stuff. Look at your F-16 Block 52’s and AH-64E Apache helos and the very ‘advanced stuff’ they are equipped with."

I actually wonder why our 24 second hand F-16C/D Block 25 aeroplanes are upgraded to just Block 52-, from which i understand the radar isn't upgraded to Block 52 level, its still the original Westinghouse AN/APG-68, which was introduced in 1984. But maybe the reason is the unwillingness to pay more for a complete upgrade.

BTW are these F-16s still armed with just AIM-9P-4s and AGM-65D/Gs, or are more advanced missiles ordered AND delivered?

About theaerial tanker requirement and the A400s, lets wait and see. We dont have to expect too much with the current administration, even our 10 F-16A/B Block 15OCUs are still not yet upgraded.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I hope....once again.... i really hope, our government will not order the JF-17 as a replacement of the F-5E/F...
Jokowi Naiki Kokpit Pesawat Tempur JF-17 di Pakistan - Kompas.com

 

[swerve]

I actually wonder why our 24 second hand F-16C/D Block 25 aeroplanes are upgraded to just Block 52-, from which i understand the radar isn't upgraded to Block 52 level, its still the original Westinghouse AN/APG-68, which was introduced in 1984.

AN/APG-68 is still the standard radar for Block 52. But recently sold F-16 Block 52s have had the APG-68(V)9.

 

[Ananda]

I hope....once again.... i really hope, our government will not order the JF-17 as a replacement of the F-5E/F...
Jokowi Naiki Kokpit Pesawat Tempur JF-17 di Pakistan - Kompas.com

JF-17 from noises here, is being considered as alternate candidate for Hawk 209/109 replacement..
The strong candidate is FA-50..which rumours say KAI willing provide blue print for total manufacturing for DI/IAe..

So..if you see from that perspective the choice is between JF-17 or FA-50...and it's for latter project than present ones..

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

"AN/APG-68 is still the standard radar for Block 52. But recently sold F-16 Block 52s have had the APG-68(V)9."

Correct me if i'm wrong, but from which i understand, the Block 40/42s were equipped with the AN/APG-68(V)1 and the (normal) Block 50/52 had the AN/APG-68(V)5.

JF-17 from noises here, is being considered as alternate candidate for Hawk 209/109 replacement..
The strong candidate is FA-50..which rumours say KAI willing provide blue print for total manufacturing for DI/IAe..

So..if you see from that perspective the choice is between JF-17 or FA-50...and it's for latter project than present ones..

Its obvious that the FA-50 will be the better choice from these two aircrafts, specially if it will be equipped with the Raytheon AN/APG-79 Active electronically scanned array radar or theNorthrop GrummanAN/APG-83 Scalable Agile Beam Radar. (I dont know how serious these plans are: KAI bids to spread wings with Golden Eagle )
But it also depends on the development of the KAI KF-X, from which i understand the plan was to replace the Hawk Mk 109 + Mk 209 with the KF-X, but if the development is going too slowly, or cancelled at all, then we need to replace the Hawks by something else.

About theaerial tanker requirement, the A330 MRTT will be the most logic choice, compared to its rivals Il-78M-90A and KC-46. But TNI-AU has also a requirement for A400Ms, and these aeroplanes can switch to tanker 'mode'.

Well for now we can expect everything with the current administration, or maybe its better to expect nothing...

 

[Ananda]

@Sandhi...don't put much notion on KFX/IFX induction on next decade (as you put KFX/IFX as candidate to replace Hawk 209/109). Even ROKAF that initially put KFX as F5 and F4 replacement, now has gone to FA-50 as F-5 replacement.

The AF simply can't put KFX as replacement for Hawk (which slated on next decade), when KFX/IFX induction dead line seems continue being push back (latest in 2030+).

As MRTT or KC-46 or IL-78..whatever 'study' stage that being done..all indicating AF study Tanker/Heavy Transport. With potential there are more 'boom' receptors Aircraft in future compare to 'probe' receptors..'boom' equiped tankers being considered hard..that'll put IL-78 or A-400 as tanker in disadvantages on the study (from what I heard)..

 

[swerve]

"AN/APG-68 is still the standard radar for Block 52. But recently sold F-16 Block 52s have had the APG-68(V)9."

Correct me if i'm wrong, but from which i understand, the Block 40/42s were equipped with the AN/APG-68(V)1 and the (normal) Block 50/52 had the AN/APG-68(V)5.


Its obvious that the FA-50 will be the better choice from these two aircrafts, specially if it will be equipped with the Raytheon AN/APG-79 Active electronically scanned array radar or theNorthrop GrummanAN/APG-83 Scalable Agile Beam Radar. (I dont know how serious these plans are:

One problem with fitting SABR, RACR or any other AESA radar to FA-50 is the question of who'd pay for it. A large number would have to be bought to keep the unit cost reasonable.

Is it obvious? FA-50 has lower performance. It has less power, & unless it's modified to a single seater it's carrying surplus weight & wasting space. It has no BVR AAMs integrated.

It's a trainer turned into a light fighter with minimum changes, with a mechanically scanned radar, a modest top speed, & limited weapons integration so far.

 

[Ananda]

KAI for FA-50 is not aimed for anything more than light fighter with self defence Air to Air capabilities. Interesting tough the Aircraft it's plan to replace in TNI-AU (Hawk 200)..advertised by BAE to have BVR capabilities in term of sparrow..but neither any operating Hawk 200 in Indonesian or Malaysian have shown that capabilities.

That's where proponents of JF-17 in here try to push, since they claim JF-17 already been developed to have BVR while FA-50 must be invested more to developed that. Still this is a project that are at least half a decade ahead in my opinion, since Hawk 200 still doing well. But good if this plan well ahead, at least they learn from F-5 case where after more than 2 years the aircraft being grounded, the replacement still not in contract yet..

 

[tonnyc]

Well, if the timetable is 5-10 years in the future, then it is too early to make a decision anyway. Korea did form a FA-50 Performance Improvement Research Service last month, and while they haven't announced a timetable and in fact won't even start until June, it's possible the upgrades would have been available in 5 years.

 

[Ananda]

Agree..I don't think there will be a decision soon on Hawk replacement..
Personally got a feeling potentially they will decide on 'the so called' three new sq, before they are touching Hawk replacement.

Simply because they already budgeting some upgrading job for Hawk..but again seems the AF already learned to plan sooner, in order not to repeat F-5 replacement fiasco..

 

[tonnyc]

Agree..I don't think there will be a decision soon on Hawk replacement..
Personally got a feeling potentially they will decide on 'the so called' three new sq, before they are touching Hawk replacement.

Simply because they already budgeting some upgrading job for Hawk..but again seems the AF already learned to plan sooner, in order not to repeat F-5 replacement fiasco..

Welp, in that case I will have to retract my statement about being too early. The F-5 replacement has been planned since at least 2012. Given that, then it is absolutely critical that the AF plans now, so that by 2028 the Russian fanboys can argue that the SU-57 is the only worthy replacement candidate for the Hawks.

 

[ADMk2]

Yes, looking to ADMk2's arguments, i think he is right, if the Americans supply such advanced components for the KFX program, they will cut in their own fingers.

"The Americans are very willing to allow the Indonesians to get some ‘advanced’ stuff. Look at your F-16 Block 52’s and AH-64E Apache helos and the very ‘advanced stuff’ they are equipped with."

I actually wonder why our 24 second hand F-16C/D Block 25 aeroplanes are upgraded to just Block 52-, from which i understand the radar isn't upgraded to Block 52 level, its still the original Westinghouse AN/APG-68, which was introduced in 1984. But maybe the reason is the unwillingness to pay more for a complete upgrade.

BTW are these F-16s still armed with just AIM-9P-4s and AGM-65D/Gs, or are more advanced missiles ordered AND delivered?

About theaerial tanker requirement and the A400s, lets wait and see. We dont have to expect too much with the current administration, even our 10 F-16A/B Block 15OCUs are still not yet upgraded.

TNI-AU has ordered and been cleared to receive AIM-120C7 AMRAAM and AIM-9X missiles to equip it’s newly upgraded F-16’s along with Sniper targetting pods.

The AN/APG-68 radar on the Indonesian F-16’s was reportedly updated to the V8/9 edition which is the production standard for that radar and is still being delivered today for new build F-16’s currently being produced.

They have not invested in the F-16V upgrade, which includes among other things the new SABR AESA radar from Northrop Grumman but I would suggest it is only a matter of time before they do.

To me it would seem to make far more sense to invest in a fleet wide F-16V program, throw in a few more Excess Defence Article Airframes to boost the numbers and undertake an SU-30 upgrade and equip these aircraft properly with all required sensors, EW, datalinks and a full suite of modern weapons, rather than add another small purchase of SU-35’s into the mix and leaving the current fleet all over the place, equipment-wise...

All that could be done domestically as a major boost for Indonesian aerospace industry and leave the overall force far more combat capable, but I’m not a smart man...

 

[Ananda]

Ha,[email protected] procurement saga of SU-35 is internal balancing act between the 'sanity' of faction in AF and Mindef who think more in modern development of functioning AF, and faction in Mindef/Parliement that what in their reasoning is something 'deterence' even in small number.

There are reasoning that since F-5 sq (sq 14) is still called 'interception' sq, then Su-35 type of Aircraft that suitable for that..remember they are also looking for Eurojet as alternative to Su-35 before. The argument for F-5 replacement been done by another Su-30 (as first initiated by AF planner)..tone down after some brass think that fighter with highly interception role should enter as F-5 replacement.

Still the thinking of 3 additional sq using F-16 or Gripen (more and more indication goes to F-16)...whether it's new build F-16V or blok 30-40 upgrade to F-16 V standard (more likely in my opinion)..shown the 'sanity' faction do have some 'win' in the argument.

Add:
This all planning thingkin is not in guarantee will happen. But at least is good think the 'thinkin' planner relatively more in stronger possition then the 'politically' planner on that 3 new sq plan.

 

[ADMk2]

But what capability does it supporters thing the SU-35 is going to provide that significantly outmatches what your SU-30 fleet (upgraded perhaps to SM standard) is already providing?

It’s going to add a new layer of burden on your already stretched logistics and training structures, for the benefit of ‘deterrence’?

Who does Indonesia think is going to be deterred exactly, by a mere 11 new aircraft of whatever type?

A larger well rounded, well supported and well equipped force structure on the other hand, that has a strong warstock of modern weapons able to undertake the full range of combat operations, with advanced sensors and communications that is well trained and exercised?

That to me is deterrence.

Piece-meal acquisitions of a handful of fighters in a disorganised force structure is the opposite of that. It is more like the Middle East situation where the ‘pride’ in having the newest flashiest fighters flying in airshows, outweighs the actual benefits of a robust force structure, except of course when actual combat effects from this force, are required...

 

[tonnyc]

But what capability does it supporters thing the SU-35 is going to provide that significantly outmatches what your SU-30 fleet (upgraded perhaps to SM standard) is already providing?

Five points. Thirty five is five points more than thirty. That's five points that Su-30 will never be able to provide compared to Su-35. Thirty five also significantly outmatches thirty.

Piece-meal acquisitions of a handful of fighters in a disorganised force structure is the opposite of that. It is more like the Middle East situation where the ‘pride’ in having the newest flashiest fighters flying in airshows, outweighs the actual benefits of a robust force structure, except of course when actual combat effects from this force, are required...

Okay, my contempt to the whole fiasco aside, in the Russophilic faction of the air force there are these irrational and contradictory twin beliefs that:
1. The Su-35 is the only thing capable of defeating the F-35 thanks to its super powerful radar. Other systems simply can't.
2. The F-35 is a weak fighter whose stealth is not at all effective, so any raid by F-35 would be picked up by ground radar, giving plenty of time for the Su-35 to fly and meet the F-35.
You can tell that these people basically ate all the Russian propaganda.

But your impression that it's like the Middle East with "pride in having the newest flashiest fighters flying in airshows" is somewhat off. There is that factor, but more importantly some people are looking for a magic bullet and in their mind Su-35 is the magic bullet. We know we don't have a robust force structure. We know we don't have a tightly knit radar network. We know our air surveillance aircrafts are outdated and too few. What Ananda described as "sanity" is the bunch that cursed but then rolled up their sleeves to get to work knowing that it will be hard and expensive and long. "Deterrence" is the bunch that looked around, cursed, and start looking really hard for "This One Trick Will Solve All Your Problems, But Experts Won't Tell You".

 

[Ananda]

The 'deterrence' is the one that can be sold easily under present admin..they seems saying..we have limited budget..but I got a quick fix for that..

We are not doing 'middle east' thing as tonnyc has pointed out..we simply do not have that kind of budget..it's simply some guys in mindef saying let's get something that we can buy with our limited budget..but provide something (in their mind) that can compete with big guns..

From what I gather..the 'sanity' guys already thinking on getting more Su-30 as F-5 replacement..they already looking on what SAF doing with their F-15E..and they like it..
They know they don't have budget for F-15E as SAF done...but they see that kind of capability can be achieved with more Su-30.

They are even talk on revamping present flankers sq og 11 Su-30 and 5 Su-27..by trading back all 5 Su-27 and using the money to get the 12th Su-30 and upgrades kit.
While the budget for F-5 replacement being used to get 12 Su-30 (SM standard equivalents)..that means they got 2 Su-30 sq.

Then with the plan of 10 sq, they aimed to get another 2 F-16 sq augment existing 2 F-16 sq..plus later on get another single jet engine to replace 2 sq of Hawk209/109 when time comes..

Then along the time come that Su-35 thinking..and somebody in mindef saying this is going to provide good political sell...

 

[STURM]

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KAI for FA-50 is not aimed for anything more than light fighter with self defence Air to Air capabilities. Interesting tough the Aircraft it's plan to replace in TNI-AU (Hawk 200)

The FA-50 will be useful in performing roles that don't require a more expensive F-16 or Su-30. Roles that are currently performed by the Hawk fleet. At the moment the FA-50 has yet to be integrated with a BVR AAM but that could change.

Who does Indonesia think is going to be deterred exactly, by a mere 11 new aircraft of whatever type?

Very true but I guess Indonesian threat perceptions are not based on the possibility of a full state on state conflict but the possibility of tensions arising with a near peer neighbour, over unresolved overlapping claims or for the need for a show of force to deter intrusions into Indonesian waters and airspace. I would imagine that in parallel with the acquisition of new aircraft, the TNI-AL is also taking steps to improve 'connectivity' by fitting its fighters with a common data link. One can also make the argument that the next step would not be to add more fighters but to get an AEW platform.

 

[Feanor]

Five points. Thirty five is five points more than thirty. That's five points that Su-30 will never be able to provide compared to Su-35. Thirty five also significantly outmatches thirty.



Okay, my contempt to the whole fiasco aside, in the Russophilic faction of the air force there are these irrational and contradictory twin beliefs that:
1. The Su-35 is the only thing capable of defeating the F-35 thanks to its super powerful radar. Other systems simply can't.
2. The F-35 is a weak fighter whose stealth is not at all effective, so any raid by F-35 would be picked up by ground radar, giving plenty of time for the Su-35 to fly and meet the F-35.
You can tell that these people basically ate all the Russian propaganda.

But your impression that it's like the Middle East with "pride in having the newest flashiest fighters flying in airshows" is somewhat off. There is that factor, but more importantly some people are looking for a magic bullet and in their mind Su-35 is the magic bullet. We know we don't have a robust force structure. We know we don't have a tightly knit radar network. We know our air surveillance aircrafts are outdated and too few. What Ananda described as "sanity" is the bunch that cursed but then rolled up their sleeves to get to work knowing that it will be hard and expensive and long. "Deterrence" is the bunch that looked around, cursed, and start looking really hard for "This One Trick Will Solve All Your Problems, But Experts Won't Tell You".

Leaving all the craziness aside, the Su-35 is supposed to be more capable then the Su-30SM. Granted there is a Su-30MKI upgrade project that involves AESA and other benefits, which presumably could be applied to the Su-30SM but that's still under development.

Given their price constraints (they can't even pay for a full squadron of Su-35S) I think that their sane option is to go with the Su-30SM, and upgrade their existing Su-30 fleet to that standard. But this is a country that fields a mixed squadron of Su-27SK and Su-30MK2, while now purchasing the Su-35S. So....

And if it's the F-15E capability set they wanted, on a Russian airframe, they should have gone for the Su-34.

 

[Ananda]

@Feanor..isn't Su-34 is too specialise ? What I'm getting on..RSAF used their F-15E not only on interdiction and penetration..but also on air superiority.

That kind of role seems more in line with capability of Su-30 rather than Su-34. Granted the Mk2 in TNI-AU inventory need to be augmented to get that kind of F-15E capability. But still it's more suitable to be get that rather than Su-34.

As for mix Su-30/Su-27..as I mentioned on previous post..the 'sanity' planner already discussed on dumping Su-27 for more Su-30..but then again some 'bright' idea on mindef talk on Su-35..on the basis that Tonnyc and I already mentioned above..