Indonesian Aero News

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
1. Alman Helvas does not realise that Korea’s F-15Ks can fire Taurus missiles because they paid for integration costs.
(a) The MICA missile, for example, can be used on F-16s, but it would requires more than a sofware change to do so. If you want the missile to be effective on beyond visual range (BVR) shots, a special emitter fitted on the firing aircraft would be needed to refresh targeting information before the missile can use its own radar.​
(b) Alman is basically saying multiple air force chiefs, including those from Indonesia, Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, UAE & Qatar are idiots for selecting American fighters and weapons. Taiwan, Qartar and UAE in particular, operate French and American fighters.​

2. Demonstrating that you can arm American fighters with non-American missiles, the Python series of missiles are widely used in numerous air forces to arm F-15s or F-16s. Even the PLAAF was so impressed with Python-3 performance — in Lebanon war where the missile shot down around 50 Syrian aircraft — the PLAAF even made a licence production version of it (called the PL-8B). It is a smokey missile, with a powerful rocket motor, for its time giving it greater range more than early versions of the AIM-9.

3. Just wanted to put together some of his more illogical comments on the AIM-120. Beyond Meteor, Derby (Alto) is another BVR missile. Fighter pilots can only fire a missile, if they arm or ‘uncage’ it.

4. There is often some slight fighter-missile compatibility issues due to refusal to be the only one paying for initial integration; and the Typhoon is certified to fire the Meteor missile, the AIM-120 and IRIS-T.

5. Alman Helvas really said “you can't launch the missile without release code provided by USG. That code will input into fighter's MMC for launching the missile. This policy is part of US export control.” But I am sure the AIM-120 missile works against all teen series fighters, if they arm it.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

Twitter guy afterall Euro Salesman and especially on Frenchie projects. His tweet is basically build to give as much as public 'doubt' on potential competitors and hopefully build opinion the other way around.

Like this Tweet, he basically implied since Indonesia will not get F-35 until 2040s, so why wait for them. Build on certain segment public emotions, hopefully create some public pressure on that. Especially getting on to the election times.

Hidden massage: By 2040 there will be alternative for F-35, don't waste time on US products, find comparable ones from other sources.
 

Meriv90

Active Member
What alternatives?
If you dont get F-35 forget the NGAF
The French moved their schedule of the SCAF(FCAS) to 2040-2050
SCAF : "On est parti plutôt sur les années 2050" (Eric Trappier, Dassault Aviation)
Meaning that would reach Indonesian AF by 2050-2060?
The Tempest is the only other option with 2035 entry point (in theory)
You probably wont buy Chinese, and after what happened in Ukraine lets forget about the Su-57

If i had cash i would be buying F-35 and wait to see the results of the new generation, if i dont have the cash then to be honest Rafale + KF21 doesnt look bad to reach 2040, meanwhile focusing on all ultra important assets like AEW and Tankers.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
What alternatives?
There's no alternative yet, this's just an example of a salesman tweet to build negative sentiment toward F-35. US has not say anything yet on when or if Indonesia can get F-35.

However some LM official already hinting that F-35 offer can be in the table after Indonesia operating F-16V (either brand new or upgrade existing ones to that specs). Basically to bridge tech gap from existing F-16 model in TNI-AU inventory, to F-35 tech.

Besides at this moment the talk with US is not F-35, but more to F-15EX (if the budget can afford it). Tweeter Guy just put wild speculations that Indonesia will not get F-35 until 2040. Something that either US not LM say any time table yet. US stuff after all competition toward other stuff he's represent anyway.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Anyway Jane's correspondent claim they got official memo from Indonesian MoF approving credit line of USD 3.9 bio for 3 packages that MinDef ask for TNI-AU. Jane's not tell all there packages, but two of them for procuring 12 Mirage 2K ex Qatari AF (guess not ex UAE), and second batch of Rafale.

It's been rumours that Rafale will be finance through 3 batches of 6+12+24 or 6+18+18 to make total 42. First batch of 6 already commencing, let's see if the second batch will be for 12 or 18.

As for F-15EX, seems there're still big discussion between MoF and MinDef with US on financing packages. Rumours (either from finance people or defense circle), the talk not concluded yet whether Indonesia will commit with F-15EX on the packages US put. Seems LM still hoping they can take the deal away from Boeing if the deal turn sour.

Frenchie still hope if the deal with Boeing got sour, Dasault can also take over and adding on current Rafale order. However I don't see that, as seems this deal Politically will be given to US. Question remains whether Boeing or LM.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
1. Alman Helvas does not realise that Korea’s F-15Ks can fire Taurus missiles because they paid for integration costs.
(a) The MICA missile, for example, can be used on F-16s, but it would requires more than a sofware change to do so. If you want the missile to be effective on beyond visual range (BVR) shots, a special emitter fitted on the firing aircraft would be needed to refresh targeting information before the missile can use its own radar.​
(b) Alman is basically saying multiple air force chiefs, including those from Indonesia, Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, UAE & Qatar are idiots for selecting American fighters and weapons. Taiwan, Qartar and UAE in particular, operate French and American fighters.​

2. Demonstrating that you can arm American fighters with non-American missiles, the Python series of missiles are widely used in numerous air forces to arm F-15s or F-16s. Even the PLAAF was so impressed with Python-3 performance — in Lebanon war where the missile shot down around 50 Syrian aircraft — the PLAAF even made a licence production version of it (called the PL-8B). It is a smokey missile, with a powerful rocket motor, for its time giving it greater range more than early versions of the AIM-9.
Australia operated the British-designed & made ASRAAM on F-18s. IRIS-T was integrated on F-16 20 years ago, & I think Spain uses it on F-18s. IRIS-T & Meteor are being integrated on F-35.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
1. Alman Helvas does not realise that Korea’s F-15Ks can fire Taurus missiles because they paid for integration costs.
(a) The MICA missile, for example, can be used on F-16s, but it would requires more than a sofware change to do so. If you want the missile to be effective on beyond visual range (BVR) shots, a special emitter fitted on the firing aircraft would be needed to refresh targeting information before the missile can use its own radar.​
(b) Alman is basically saying multiple air force chiefs, including those from Indonesia, Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, UAE & Qatar are idiots for selecting American fighters and weapons. Taiwan, Qartar and UAE in particular, operate French and American fighters.​

2. Demonstrating that you can arm American fighters with non-American missiles, the Python series of missiles are widely used in numerous air forces to arm F-15s or F-16s. Even the PLAAF was so impressed with Python-3 performance — in Lebanon war where the missile shot down around 50 Syrian aircraft — the PLAAF even made a licence production version of it (called the PL-8B). It is a smokey missile, with a powerful rocket motor, for its time giving it greater range more than early versions of the AIM-9.

3. Just wanted to put together some of his more illogical comments on the AIM-120. Beyond Meteor, Derby (Alto) is another BVR missile. Fighter pilots can only fire a missile, if they arm or ‘uncage’ it.

4. There is often some slight fighter-missile compatibility issues due to refusal to be the only one paying for initial integration; and the Typhoon is certified to fire the Meteor missile, the AIM-120 and IRIS-T.

5. Alman Helvas really said “you can't launch the missile without release code provided by USG. That code will input into fighter's MMC for launching the missile. This policy is part of US export control.” But I am sure the AIM-120 missile works against all teen series fighters, if they arm it.

Even if he is right (and I don’t believe he is) he is at best being disengenuous.

Some Euro kit may be “ITARS” free, but that is absolutely irrelevant given European countries put the same if not stronger caveats on their own defence products, not to mention developing downgraded ‘export’ models of platforms and sensitive kit. MEA nations have confirmed as much with Typhoon, among other things.
 
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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Australia operated the British-designed & made ASRAAM on F-18s. IRIS-T was integrated on F-16 20 years ago, & I think Spain uses it on F-18s. IRIS-T & Meteor are being integrated on F-35.
Indeed and I find it very curious why RAAF decided to dispense with it for F-35, particularly given it’s low-key but regular block update program nonetheless…

It would have made for some interesting internal carriage options I suspect…
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

This MOU between Boeing and DI is actually can be said as the main bargaining chip from Boeing to get F-15EX/F-15IDN deal get through. This is signed on early days of Indo Defence this month.

With this, basically Boeing said by buying F-15EX, we will bring DI as part of Boeing Defense value chain network. We will build RnD center with DI and train DI engineer on Boeing's lead projects. Similar kind thing that LM offer India on their F-21 (F-16V tailor to India) project.

Naturally DI already make move help lobby on behalf of Boeing to get deal on F-15EX done. Rumours MoF now 'bargain' with US not only on financing packages, but to cut 30% of initial price tag but still got most of the initial package. This means 'most likely' they want Indonesian F-15IDN to be blend with USAF F-15EX production batches. In such piggy back on USAF packages.

So the last question will be, even if US agree with Indonesian asking price, will US financing packages meet the Indonesian MOF financing schedule preference. All this shown Boeing work hard to get deal done. They know both LM and Dasault wait in the corner (armed) with their own lobby packages to snatch the deal away.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

MinDef spokeman admitted in Media that 12 Qatar Mirage 2K are the ones they are going to pursue as interim fighters. This the plan until they can get all Rafale operational. However at this stage it is still under negotiation and not a done deal yet.

I suspect they are not negotiating on Mirage 2K inventories only, but also the armament packages. Rumours say that Qatar already stockpiles enough parts and supplies to operate those Mirage 2K for close to 2040.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
Even if he is right (and I don’t believe he is) he is at best being disengenuous.

Some Euro kit may be “ITARS” free, but that is absolutely irrelevant given European countries put the same if not stronger caveats on their own defence products, not to mention developing downgraded ‘export’ models of platforms and sensitive kit. MEA nations have confirmed as much with Typhoon, among other things.
The Typhoons bought by Kuwait & Qatar aren't downgraded in general. The Typhoons delivered so far to Kuwait & Qatar have better radars than any of those in service with the UK, Germany, Italy & Spain, for example. Upgraded European Typhoons & the new ones on order by Germany & Spain will have better radars than any of the exports, but those radars weren't ready for service in time for Kuwait & Qatar to buy them.

Exports to non-NATO countries won't have some NATO-specific kit, but the reasons for that should be obvious.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Typhoons bought by Kuwait & Qatar aren't downgraded in general. The Typhoons delivered so far to Kuwait & Qatar have better radars than any of those in service with the UK, Germany, Italy & Spain, for example. Upgraded European Typhoons & the new ones on order by Germany & Spain will have better radars than any of the exports, but those radars weren't ready for service in time for Kuwait & Qatar to buy them.

Exports to non-NATO countries won't have some NATO-specific kit, but the reasons for that should be obvious.
Newer perhaps, not better. The radars as one example supplied are a definite downgrade from those supplied to the RAF.

They don’t like talking about it from a marketing perspective, but it is true nonetheless…
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The ECRS Mk 0 AESA radar is a downgrade from the mechanically scanned CAPTOR radar of RAF Typhoons? How, exactly? Are you sure this isn't a comparison with the not-yet-implemented upgrade of RAF Typhoons?

Qatari pilots, who trained in RAF Typhoons, are reported as having to learn the additional capabilities of the radars of their new Qatari Typhoons, i.e. capabilities current RAF Typhoons don't have. Qatari Typhoons have ECRS Mk 0. The RAF will get ECRS Mk. 2 - but that hasn't flown yet. Nor, I think, has the ECRS Mk 1 Germany & Spain are getting.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
FB_IMG_1668694466378.jpg

Indonesian MinDef RnD directorate conduct test on Smart Bomb prototype develop with local company. This type of munitions from what they put in their FB seems being developed for Turboprop Aircraft. So they're testing with Super Tucano COIN fighters, but hinting can be used also from Turboprop MALE UAV.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Press conference in Jakarta between US Secretary of Defense Austin and Indonesian Defense Minister Prabowo. I don't want to dwell much on usual politics in this press conference. However more on F-15EX/IDN negotiation.

At 18:00+ Prabowo's basically saying the negotiation already reach advance stages. Boeing and US already agree on the packages including financial ones. Decision as Prabowo's say is above his pay grade now, but it is already up to Indonesia. Means it is already in Jokowi's decision and practically he will going to ask his CFO (Indonesian MoF) on the affordability issue.
 
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