Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

Indonesian Navy Commissions Its First Hybrid-Propulsion Warship - Naval News

The Indonesian Navy (TNI AL) commissioned a domestically built 60-metre Fast Attack Craft-Missile (FACM), KRI Belati (622)

www.navalnews.com

This ship become the first ship with combo waterjet and propeler, first amble to use both biofuel and reguler, and first to use Atmaca SSM. TNI-AL Chief claim KRI Belati will be show case on new propulsion standard for future FACM/FMB.

obsolete worn out second hand frigates as sweetener for the acquisition of old second hand submarines.... in my opinion this is not really a sweetener but an insult. This is absolutely a step back.

Type 053H3 is old but not much differ then Pohang and Abukuma. All three potential being offer as grants. I'm not pro China and my posts over the years already shown that. However I just see some public/defense enthusiats forums are much more negative toward potential 053H3 then potential Pohang or Abukuma.

This all back to the 'interim assets' policy. As long as MinDef still believe the policy needed to get fast stop gaps, and getting second hand assets can not be avoided.

As Type 039A, they are not that old, most only in their teens years. Slightly older then J-10B/C. The final decision is not out yet. Too much hype in media, even International media. The cost of those J-10B/C also being inflated too high. It is calculated the overall costs of 42 J-10B/C will be less them half of 42 Rafale. So the price of USD 9 bio talk by International media is much over exagerated.

Because in the end politics or not, one main of the attractions on Chinese assets still their value for money. If their costs comparable to Western/NATO assets, they will find close to no one wants to export them. Pakistan if not mistaken prepare USD 3+ Bio for 2 sq of J-10CE, while Indonesia being rumours prepare USD 1.6 Bio for 1 Sq.

Just shown, in the end price matter on getting Chinese assets. Perhaps that's more the attraction in this situations other then political consideration.

 

[koxinga]

The general disappointment is not just in the interim argument but the choice. Less than a year ago we were discussing the Italian offers which included old Maestrales, FREMMs to used Type 212As.

The Maestrales will be poor choices as well but the Type 212As and FREMMs would have been a solid option. Instead, the choice was to spend on the ITS Garibaldi. The FREMMs would be far more than just an interim assets and would be benefited from having a same logistics source with the PPAs.

In short, if it is unavoidable to buy interim assets, the decision to even consider Chinese is just questionable geopolitical signalling.

Greece buys two used Italian FREMM frigates

The National Armaments Directors of Italy (Admiral Giacinto Ottaviani) and Greece (Major General Ioannis Bouras) have signed a preliminary agreement for the transfer to...

www.janes.com

 

[Ananda]

short, if it is unavoidable to buy interim assets, the decision to even consider Chinese is just questionable geopolitical signalling.

As long as Indonesia politically still choose to be in the middle, then it will be unavoidable some procurement will come from Russia and China. If they choose Type 039, there will be no fiscal room for Italian U212A. Fincantieri seems also not pursue FREMM anymore but pushing for PPA Batch 2 build in their partner yard in Batam. So the NATO standard procurement still being pursue.

This shown again that getting Western/Turkiye Nato standard and Russian/Chinese are both Geopolitical and Budgetary choices.

 

[Ananda]

Anyway, if PAL follow Babcock building stages, then it should not be long before the FMP#1 launch. Seems it is already close to HMS Venturer condition when being launch 3 months ago.

All photo from Keris FB that seems got the photfrom their follower.

 

[koxinga]

As long as Indonesia politically still choose to be in the middle, then it will be unavoidable.

I would challenge this notion that purchasing arms is externally advantageous to Indonesia. It is an old Cold War way of thinking. Brazil and South Africa are major non aligned nations, who's international position does not rely on which country they buy their arms from.

Rather, it is more for satisfying/paying off internal interest groups that perceive this to be important.

 

[Ananda]

would challenge this notion that purchasing arms is externally advantageous to Indonesia. It is an old Cold War way of thinking. Brazil and South Africa are major non aligned nations, who's international position does not rely on which country they buy their arms from.

We are entering new cold war, like it or not. The Multipolar might be bit different then 20th century Cold War, but also similar. Buying arms like it or not part business and part geopolitics. You say yourself buying from China is giving geopolitical signal.

Internal politics is always determinant factor, with Indonesia procurement. I have talk about this for years on three Indonesian threads. However Geopolitical consideration and Budgetary also playing influential factor.

In one hand MinDef procure NATO base equipment from Turkiye, Italian,and French plus ROK. On other hand also procure from Russia, and after Ukraine war, more considering China. Thus nothing change much. China replacing Russia as 'other' supplier. How much the 'other' supplier will get business compare to NATO base supplier, remain to be seen.

 

[swerve]

I would challenge this notion that purchasing arms is externally advantageous to Indonesia. It is an old Cold War way of thinking. Brazil and South Africa are major non aligned nations, who's international position does not rely on which country they buy their arms from.

Rather, it is more for satisfying/paying off internal interest groups that perceive this to be important.

So, how many Russian or Chinese weapons has Brazil bought? Or South Africa?

 

[koxinga]

So, how many Russian or Chinese weapons has Brazil bought? Or South Africa?

None. That is my point. Their non aligned position is not dependent on purchasing arms from these countries. Maybe how I wrote in English is unclear.

 

[koxinga]

You say yourself buying from China is giving geopolitical signal.

Yes and I am challenging that belief that such signal whether to China or to the West are actually useful.

Hence my point that it matters more to internal factions than external powers

Internal politics is always determinant factor, with Indonesia procurement. I have talk about this for years on three Indonesian threads. However Geopolitical consideration and Budgetary also playing influential factor.

Yes this what you have always said. But I wonder why Indonesiana seems resigned to this. Is change for the better really impossible?

 

[Ananda]

Is change for the better really impossible?

When corruption mentality already spreading from top to bottom (even general public). When those who call changes in streets toward the corrupt elites, but become another corrupt parasite when got chances at top. When the so call 'democratics' administration prove have higher corruption level then era of 'beloved' dictactors they are replacing. You can not expect clean goverment will come right away. It is generation process.

All this means most of the public content to have gradual changes. There going to be corruption, unpopular policies, however in the end ussualy there will be adjustment. Either because public outcry or being consider too much by anti corruption agency.

However back to Chinese or Russian defense procurement, the public is divided. Those who are anti western see the diversification is good thing. Those who cry anguish toward Chinese procurement in media and online forums, not mean they are representing majority. In sense political factions also looking to public mood, which they know also divide on Western and non Western suppliers. Perhaps this is why Turkiye, Frenchie and Italian got more deals on one side and China and Russia on other side.

That's why I always have more faith with finance guys. As they're usually that sort out procurements from any government agencies. Not mean it will be 100% sort out, but they will go back to see which assets that will match more to budgetary realities. This means they also looking to life time support on the procurement from government projects. In sense finding relative middle ground.

 

[Ananda]

China is reportedly considering donating its last Type 053 frigates in service to the Indonesian Navy

In what would represent a new sign of closer defense ties between the two countries, China is reportedly considering donating its last Type 053 frigates

www.zona-militar.com

Seems the rumours of those Type 053H3 are going to be grant from China getting louder. How many still not final yet. However grant on military equipment still need to get Parliement approval.

Previously Parliement already approve ROK grant of 1 Pohang Corvette plus USD 50 mio as refurbishment costs. However no further news on Pohang progress. Thus either Abukuma or Type 053H3, it is still has to go through Parliement to get approval plus restoration costs.