Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Ananda

The Bunker Group
second batch of Sigmas could have some upgrades if wished & affordable.
Sigmas certainly more affordable then the Modified Iver/Arrowhead 140 let alone FREMM. Seems the problem is level of workshare and tech transfer between Damen and PAL.

Actually from what I gather before from PAL it self and MinDef, the actual plan is Sigma Light Frigate as Van Speijk replacement for GP and ASW. While Iver based for AAW. FREMM coming from nowhere, rumours due some disatisfaction with Damen and MinDef assesment for larger Frigate.

Damen in Indodefence 2018 already bring design of lenghthening Sigma PKR from 10514 to 11514. Make it able to equiped with 16 Sylver VLS. Similar on what that they offer it to Greece. For larger frigate they offer their Omega design (based on Zeven Provincien hull). Somehow fincantieri can cut in and offering their version of FREMM.

So FREMM actually become replacement program for Sigma PKR that seems so far will be stop after two building. This FREMM also got critics from some retired Admirals that consider them to costly for TNI-AL operation. Personally I agree with them. Then again, Politics choice overide users assesment.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
IMG_20211212_213030.jpg

PAL just launch video of their so call 'Industrial 4.0' transformation in their official you tube channel. Don't want to put link on that video. I found it but shallow and tedious.

In sense it's nothing new that has not been mentioned before. They're planning to become lead Integrator for Shipping Projects with other Yards. Also they're planning to provide digitalization work flow in order to improve their QC and Productivity. Something that easier then talk. As lead Integrator they're planning to provide design and tech transfer to other yards as their sub contractor.

Thus I only put screenshot on their Surface Combatant design, which seems they're aiming as back bone of TNI-AL surface combatan in future. Thus Frigate of 143m design based on Iver/Arrow 140, OPV/Corvette 90m and KCR 60m.

At this moment only KCR 60 already operational, OPV 90 just beginning the work with Private Yards (seems part of PAL lead Integrator/sub contracting) and They're planning to begin Frigates Project.

Personally if they are only working with this three design then it's a good thing. Hope they're focusing the design (with their subcontractor) only with this three. Whatever happens with Fincantieri FREMM deals, let's not get involved. This three design already stretch them thin in my opinion, even with subcontractor work by other local yards.

Add:
That Frigates clearly not a final design yet. Rumours say they're still ironing final design with Babcock. It's clearly rushing job from their graphics designer. It's combine the aft and middle superstructure of Arrow 140 and type 26 front superstructure :rolleyes:.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
View attachment 48708

PAL just launch video of their so call 'Industrial 4.0' transformation in their official you tube channel. Don't want to put link on that video. I found it but shallow and tedious.

In sense it's nothing new that has not been mentioned before. They're planning to become lead Integrator for Shipping Projects with other Yards. Also they're planning to provide digitalization work flow in order to improve their QC and Productivity. Something that easier then talk. As lead Integrator they're planning to provide design and tech transfer to other yards as their sub contractor.

Thus I only put screenshot on their Surface Combatant design, which seems they're aiming as back bone of TNI-AL surface combatan in future. Thus Frigate of 143m design based on Iver/Arrow 140, OPV/Corvette 90m and KCR 60m.

At this moment only KCR 60 already operational, OPV 90 just beginning the work with Private Yards (seems part of PAL lead Integrator/sub contracting) and They're planning to begin Frigates Project.

Personally if they are only working with this three design then it's a good thing. Hope they're focusing the design (with their subcontractor) only with this three. Whatever happens with Fincantieri FREMM deals, let's not get involved. This three design already stretch them thin in my opinion, even with subcontractor work by other local yards.

Add:
That Frigates clearly not a final design yet. Rumours say they're still ironing final design with Babcock. It's clearly rushing job from their graphics designer. It's combine the aft and middle superstructure of Arrow 140 and type 26 front superstructure :rolleyes:.
Then you had to watch "PAL Talk Edisi Spesial - “Bangun Frigate? Kapal Selam? Siapkah PT PAL?”

They proudly put a preview 1-2 days on youtube before the launch/premiere of the full video, but as expected, it was intense...
Intense boring, empty, tedious and too long. It was more a video about the CEO himself.

Sadly our companies often talk more about their vision, mission and their futuristic unrealistic fantasies and dreams, but almost not about real planning.

About the Maritime Industry Transformation 4.0 video: i dont understand why the intropart has to be repeated for a full 5 minutes before the actual video starts!

I prefer videos like this:
Short, no empty talk, real activities and results.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

Nothing new on the content except it's first time PAL official (in this the COO) stated their next submarine program will be for Scorpene. Before they always talk on DSME 1400 2nd batch, then change it to next submarine batch, and now officially talk on Scorpene as next submarine Project.

Seems NG bag the deal, and it's perhaps shown the French-Indonesia defense deals sign in June by Prabowo and Parly plus cemented with Jokowi-Marcone meeting in G20 getting traction.

Well I do still hope for more F-16 then Rafale, as it's more suitable for TNI-AU current support. Still I also got snippets that the finance people has work hard to find financing line suitable for their appetite, if Political choices still has to be Rafale. Twitter guy must be smiling wide if those Frenchie assets got through. His KPI as Frenchie salesman come through.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

Nothing new on the content except it's first time PAL official (in this the COO) stated their next submarine program will be for Scorpene. Before they always talk on DSME 1400 2nd batch, then change it to next submarine batch, and now officially talk on Scorpene as next submarine Project.

Seems NG bag the deal, and it's perhaps shown the French-Indonesia defense deals sign in June by Prabowo and Parly plus cemented with Jokowi-Marcone meeting in G20 getting traction.

Well I do still hope for more F-16 then Rafale, as it's more suitable for TNI-AU current support. Still I also got snippets that the finance people has work hard to find financing line suitable for their appetite, if Political choices still has to be Rafale. Twitter guy must be smiling wide if those Frenchie assets got through. His KPI as Frenchie salesman come through.
You are too obsessed with the Oracle on Twitter. It would be ridiculous to become anti-France and hoping that Indonesia not order from DCNS and Dassault only because of that smartass. DSME and DCNS have both some good designs, and in my opinion the most important thing is that something happen, instead of the empty promises and useless announcements for almost a decade.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
It would be ridiculous to become anti-France and hoping that Indonesia not order from DCNS and Dassault only because of that smartass.
I'm not anti Frenchie stuff per say, I'm just finding some of them (especially Fighters) not really sustain for TNI operation under present condition. This especially for Rafale. If TNI-AU got more then double operational budget, then it's different story. Just like Scorpene, hope they're being support by more operational budget and not just procurement.

As for my remarks on Twitter guy, actually is more to my cynic's toward so call 'defense consultant' in Indonesia. It's not just him, but most of defense consultant in Indonesia are actually have hidden 'sales' agenda. It's more my cynicsm toward Indonesian media that potrait them as 'independent' analysts on defense.

They're not, those so call defense insiders have tweak their comments on media for certain defense assets that they represent, and not entirely for good of TNI operational capabilities.

Perhaps it's my cynicsm on how general public perseption being tweak and counter tweak by Media (on every form) in Indonesia that are now more and more derive by Political interest (and this's not just on defense).

I'm not blaming all to those defense consultant/insiders, after all it's their bread and butter. Perhaps my cynicsm derive as I missed guys like Juwono Sudarsono. At least he try to build TNI postures that really suitable and efficient with the limitations of budget available, while facing Political interest pressure. Perhaps that's why he only survive one term as defense minister.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
http://instagr.am/p/CXgZbXqPxen/
Couple days old, but have no time before put it here. Quite interesting cause before the talk focus for Schiebel camcopter.

300px-Schiebel_CAMCOPTER_S-100.jpg

Just shown the Indonesian procurement will not be settled until the money being paid (even with MoU or preliminary contract).

Good news is GD LX300 (honestly when I read LX300 my mind thinking was Lexus LX300), has better capabilities in paper with Schiebel camcopter. However it's larger, this bit question in my mind whether suitable operating from TNI-AL Corvettes (which's why Schiebel camcopter being reviewed before).

 

ddxx

Active Member
I was wondering if there's any sort of rough list of planned major surface combatants with indicative fleet numbers?

There seems to be a lot of different models being built, planned and under consideration. Off the top of my head there's the AH140, FREMM, and Mogami? Are all three types planned for potential procurement alongside one another? If so, would so many different types unnecessarily increase sustainment costs?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Off the top of my head there's the AH140, FREMM, and Mogami? Are all three types planned for potential procurement alongside one another? If so, would so many different types unnecessarily increase sustainment costs?
A good question which the answer so far: Nobody knows, it's still fluid. Factors at play are Political, Tech Transfer (Local Industry involvement), and funding availability. Seems MinDef, MoF even Foreign Ministry still scrumbling on what going to be on final decision.

That's all my ranting mostly about. They are so far in my opinion talking on how to Procure and not really on how to support and sustaint future operation. FREMM actually is bit a surprise since all along the plan for Full size Frigate is Iver/Arrow 140 based. I have put before some retired admirals are also questioning FREMM. TNI-AL so far avoiding Gas Turbine vessels as too costly for operating and sustainment (for their budget standard so far).

Good news (at least in my opinion) as in my post #1,962 above, PAL shown their project for surface combatant will focus on KCR60, OPV90 and 143m Frigate based on Arrow 140. It's indicator cause Politically Naval Vessels procurement must involved local industry (in which PAL as lead integrator).

I do have doubt about Mogami if FREMM continue. Simply because the budget availability just not adding up. This despite I know Japanese capabilities on lobby in Indonesia is quite big.

However just the news on GD FX300 UAV Helicopter above, Indonesian defense procurement can change drastically despite all serious talk or even if already reach MoU stage as happen several times before.

Thus I can only say the confirm Frigate Projects now is only Arrow140 based between PAL and Babcock. It's now only 2, however it can be increase to the number of 4 or 6 (as full van speijk replacement) or even replacing FREMM plan number. Unless the payment already made, anything still can change.

Personaly I support the PAL-Babcock project if it's run smoothly, to be the standard Frigate for TNI-AL. Iver/Arrow140 based design is good enough, and flexible enough, and (based on Babcock presentation) economics enough for operational sustainment. Again in Indonesia 'political interest' can disrupt rational technical consideration.

On your question on indicative number, PAL already talk of 18 for KCR 60, but not on OPV and Frigate yet. Rumours only that OPV will be Parchim replacement (thus 16 if being replace one on one basis), and Frigate at least 8 (6 of FREMM and 2 of Arrow 140). However there's leaks on MinDef presentation to Parliement talking on 16 Frigate. I have serious doubt it can be afford by current administration or next. If they can get 8 frigate (whether combo Arrow140 and FREMM or overall Arrow140) it is already big achievement.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
I'm not anti Frenchie stuff per say, I'm just finding some of them (especially Fighters) not really sustain for TNI operation under present condition. This especially for Rafale. If TNI-AU got more then double operational budget, then it's different story. Just like Scorpene, hope they're being support by more operational budget and not just procurement.

As for my remarks on Twitter guy, actually is more to my cynic's toward so call 'defense consultant' in Indonesia. It's not just him, but most of defense consultant in Indonesia are actually have hidden 'sales' agenda. It's more my cynicsm toward Indonesian media that potrait them as 'independent' analysts on defense.

They're not, those so call defense insiders have tweak their comments on media for certain defense assets that they represent, and not entirely for good of TNI operational capabilities.

Perhaps it's my cynicsm on how general public perseption being tweak and counter tweak by Media (on every form) in Indonesia that are now more and more derive by Political interest (and this's not just on defense).

I'm not blaming all to those defense consultant/insiders, after all it's their bread and butter. Perhaps my cynicsm derive as I missed guys like Juwono Sudarsono. At least he try to build TNI postures that really suitable and efficient with the limitations of budget available, while facing Political interest pressure. Perhaps that's why he only survive one term as defense minister.
According to your friend on Twitter, not everyone is happy with the Iver Huitfeldts/Arrowhead 140 ships.
|"UK has interest to see Babcock frigate program in Indonesia become a success story for defense partnership post Brexit. Indonesian MoD should supervise the program to make sure it run well. Not everyone happy about cooperation with Babcock, includes to use Arrowhead 140 design."| :-D



KRI Tombak 629 in action, with the first time live-fire exercise on video of the new AU-220M 57 mm gun.



OSI Maritime Systems will work together with Hollandse Signaalapparaten and LEN to provide the Integrated Navigation System for the Mid-Life Modernisation of the KRI Usman Harun 359. If im not wrong OSI Maritime Systems is from Canada.

 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Not everyone happy about cooperation with Babcock, includes to use Arrowhead 140 design.
Well off course there're a lot off defense insiders aka Sales Guys that will not be happy. Some of them just got out bid. What's new ;).

I read on online forums and media some of those 'sales guys' questions the need of Babcock as Partner. Why don't directly work with OMT. Well OMT doesn't have yard anymore. PAL need mature yard that have long term proven abilities to work on the Frigate that size. Babcock is the only Yard at this moment that work with that design. However as usual in Indonesia there'll be sales guys that media call 'independent' defense analyst that going to say otherwise.


OSI Maritime Systems will work together with Hollandse Signaalapparaten and LEN to provide the Integrated Navigation System for the Mid-Life Modernisation of the KRI Usman Harun 359

This's one intrigued me. Like I said, I'm no defense professional and certainly not Naval Architect. However talking to some commercial shipping companies, the modern commercial ships with integrated sensors is part of increasing automation. Thus reduce crew need and for Commercial shipping means reduce operational costs.

In some way, it's going to matter also to Naval Shipping operation. LEN will be the lead Integrator for sensors and electronics Projects for defense in Indonesia. Just hope they're going standardize this to every Navy ships.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Yeah. Odense Staalskibsværft at Lindø closed down almost 10 years ago, in 2012. Most of the site is now Lindø Industripark, largely used for making & supporting offshore wind turbines. The dry docks are now used by a smaller firm, Ship Repair Yard - Efficient docking, unique logistics, and highly skilled workforce, for ship repair. Fayard moved from a smaller yard at Fredericia when the Staalskibsværft docks became available & gave up building to concentrate on repairs. It was able to take over the docks piecemeal as Mærsk finished the last ships it was building. But no longer any connection with OMT or warship construction facilities.

The offices of OMT are in the old Odense port. No shipbuilding there! You can look round the outside of the building on Google Street View. Google Maps

When that port & the canal to the sea were built in the early 19th century some of my ancestors were shipyard workers in Odense, in the old shipyards at Skibhusene ("Ship houses"), between the new (then) port & the open sea. I've long taken in interest in the place.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Yeah. Odense Staalskibsværft at Lindø closed down almost 10 years ago, in 2012. Most of the site is now Lindø Industripark, largely used for making & supporting offshore wind turbines. The dry docks are now used by a smaller firm, Ship Repair Yard - Efficient docking, unique logistics, and highly skilled workforce, for ship repair. Fayard moved from a smaller yard at Fredericia when the Staalskibsværft docks became available & gave up building to concentrate on repairs. It was able to take over the docks piecemeal as Mærsk finished the last ships it was building. But no longer any connection with OMT or warship construction facilities.

The offices of OMT are in the old Odense port. No shipbuilding there! You can look round the outside of the building on Google Street View. Google Maps

When that port & the canal to the sea were built in the early 19th century some of my ancestors were shipyard workers in Odense, in the old shipyards at Skibhusene ("Ship houses"), between the new (then) port & the open sea. I've long taken in interest in the place.
So you're a geographically misplaced Viking then? :D
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Naah. More English than anything else. Born & bred in Buckinghamshire. Me gran had a Danish surname, though, & dual nationality.

Danish 2nd, Welsh 3rd, German 4th (from Holstein) & Scottish last - but that's where my surname's from: a Scot who moved to England & married a local girl in the 1690s.

But we digress . . .
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
do have doubt about Mogami if FREMM continue. Simply because the budget availability just not adding up. This despite I know Japanese capabilities on lobby in Indonesia is quite big.
Just add in here that rumours Japanese financing packages on 30FFM will be tied toward Investment on Indonesian maritime Industry. If the rumours is true, this will be change equation on money trail.
 

ddxx

Active Member
A good question which the answer so far: Nobody knows, it's still fluid. Factors at play are Political, Tech Transfer (Local Industry involvement), and funding availability. Seems MinDef, MoF even Foreign Ministry still scrumbling on what going to be on final decision.

That's all my ranting mostly about. They are so far in my opinion talking on how to Procure and not really on how to support and sustaint future operation. FREMM actually is bit a surprise since all along the plan for Full size Frigate is Iver/Arrow 140 based. I have put before some retired admirals are also questioning FREMM. TNI-AL so far avoiding Gas Turbine vessels as too costly for operating and sustainment (for their budget standard so far).

Good news (at least in my opinion) as in my post #1,962 above, PAL shown their project for surface combatant will focus on KCR60, OPV90 and 143m Frigate based on Arrow 140. It's indicator cause Politically Naval Vessels procurement must involved local industry (in which PAL as lead integrator).

I do have doubt about Mogami if FREMM continue. Simply because the budget availability just not adding up. This despite I know Japanese capabilities on lobby in Indonesia is quite big.

However just the news on GD FX300 UAV Helicopter above, Indonesian defense procurement can change drastically despite all serious talk or even if already reach MoU stage as happen several times before.

Thus I can only say the confirm Frigate Projects now is only Arrow140 based between PAL and Babcock. It's now only 2, however it can be increase to the number of 4 or 6 (as full van speijk replacement) or even replacing FREMM plan number. Unless the payment already made, anything still can change.

Personaly I support the PAL-Babcock project if it's run smoothly, to be the standard Frigate for TNI-AL. Iver/Arrow140 based design is good enough, and flexible enough, and (based on Babcock presentation) economics enough for operational sustainment. Again in Indonesia 'political interest' can disrupt rational technical consideration.

On your question on indicative number, PAL already talk of 18 for KCR 60, but not on OPV and Frigate yet. Rumours only that OPV will be Parchim replacement (thus 16 if being replace one on one basis), and Frigate at least 8 (6 of FREMM and 2 of Arrow 140). However there's leaks on MinDef presentation to Parliement talking on 16 Frigate. I have serious doubt it can be afford by current administration or next. If they can get 8 frigate (whether combo Arrow140 and FREMM or overall Arrow140) it is already big achievement.
Thank you for such a detailed and insightful response, it certainly makes more sense now!

From information that is available, I think the AH140 design is brilliant. The flexibility in mission and role through life, along with a quick build time and good price point makes it an easy choice for most navy's looking to bolster their fleets.

Interestingly, Babcock has even stated their desire for Australia to be involved in regional sustainment and build of the design based upon interest in the region. (Article Source)

In terms of fleet mix, the 30FFM seems most suited alongside the AH140? The FREMM, at least on paper, appears to have significant overlap with the AH140?
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

MinDef FB shown emergency meeting on Maritime Sovereignty and resources management. Attend by various minister related to maritime including two most Politically influential ministers under current administration, Prabowo and Luhut. They are not saying it, but clearly it's related to recent problem in SCS including CCP demand for Indonesia stop Oil and Gas exploration in North Natuna Sea.

They will not going to follow Chinese demand, no administration in Indonesia can survive politically if they cave in to that kind of demand. Thus it create more urgent need to strengthen Maritime resources, not only for Navy but also to other maritime agencies especially Coast Guard/Bakamla and Fisheries Protection.

This I sense potential some changes in Maritime procurement. So far the local yards have priority to get work for TNI-AL and Bakamla or Fisheries patrol boats. If their priority increasing perhaps some of them will be outsource to foreign yards.

Other potential are Foreign yards invest in local yards (which rumours Japanese try to offer for working domestically on their Frigate and OPV design). Either way it's going to be seen how they're going to increase on Maritime defense and constabularies assets.

Can this will be only a political shown? Off course it can, it's Indonesia after all. However the latest Chinese demand (eventough still on diplomatic level), I do sense rattle the urgency on some Political factions. Election is only two and half years away, and no one wants to be burden with image of selling out national sovereignty.

the 30FFM seems most suited alongside the AH140? The FREMM, at least on paper, appears to have significant overlap with the AH140?
If the design not changes, what PAL going to be constructed will have more similarities with Danish Iver then Babcock Arrow 140/Type 31. It's going to be more on AAW capabilities (with 32 Long Range SAM VLS and 24 Medium Range SAM VLS). MBDA rumours to have leads baging the missiles with Sylver VLS and Aster 30 + VL Mica.

So seems the capabilities overlap in paper is between FREMM and Mogami. Both also having similar propulsion setup and (at least the version being offer to Indonesia) more on GP and ASW function.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group


@Sandhi Yudha this's the example why I'm very cynical to those so call Local Defense Insiders/Consultant in Indonesia, and Twitter guy is the big example of that.

The media call them Independent defense consultant but the way some of them talking in media is clearly try to twist public opinion on the procurement direction they want to build.

Twitter guy clearly playing bit dirty. Calling DSME 1400 as unlicensed copy, and try to build public opinion on DSME capabilities. Look clearly DSME have less track record then Euro players like TKMS or NG, but their submarine so far working fine with ROKN. So why this name calling on DSME product ?

By his logic PAL LPD to Pinoy (Tarlac) should be also call unlicensed copy from Daesun LPD design. Come on due he dare saying that in Indonesian media ? If DSME 1400 have problem to be adjusted, well it's practically new design. Eventough it's based on Chanbogo that ROKN use, but it's modified under TNI-AL preferred specs.

PAL has no problem continue their second batch with DSME, but this administration that decided to hold it. If we see the PAL project with Damen and DSME that originated from previous administration, both project not being pursue to next batch by present administration. Could it be due to technical (as he try to potrait) or more on Political choices. I dare him to open it in Indonesian media (doubt he will do it cause will jeopardize his Projects).

He's talking pure BS on saying Indonesian industry working mostly on off set Projects. What Pindad and PAL doing at this moment is clearly part of licensing. It's just their learning curve being cut short.

In his video he's talking about TKMS reluctant to offer 214 cause has similarities with Singapore 218SG. Again pure BS. TKMS already see how PAL learning journey on 209 is cut short. Can it occurred to him TKMS offering next batch with PAL also on 209 to complete PAL learning curve?

DSME also only move to next level of licensing with 214 (KSS2) after they build 9 209/Chanbogo class or KSS1. I do believe TKMS knows that, that's why they insist with 209, cause Indonesia want to build it locally within PAL infrastructure. While PAL learning curve with 209 are not complete yet.

If it's build by TKMS completely, then it's different story. Now he talk BS on TKMS because his pure 'defense' analyst thinking or because he wants to twist public opinion from NG competitor ?

Look it's ok for Sales Agent to 'smooth' their brand image. However then talk directly in public that whose actually they're represent, and not hiding behind image as 'independent' defense consultant.

Now he talk on Investment that Government already build within PAL Submarine Infrastructure. Now can he be honest to tell public how much the adjustment on infrastructure (that build for 209) need to be done to work with NG Scorpene design (which being rumours will be similar then Brazilian ones)? Could it be TKMS insistence on continue building 209 with PAL asside to complete PAL learning curve, but also to adjust with PAL existing infrastructure ?

I'm no defense industry professional or insiders. However I already see many Industry as a Bankers. When you build different type of product, there will be adjustment on your infrastructure. It can be big, or it can be minimal. It's simply because there will adjustment due different specs.

PAL not open to public on detail infrastructure of their Submarine yards. However considering it's build for 209, then if they're going to work with NG, off course it's different specs of Submarine. It will be additional adjustment costs on their current infrastructure.

While if TKMS offering licensing 209, the adjustment will be minimal, as the specs not changing much. Will sales agent like Twitter Guy admit that in public ?

For those who read many defense discussion and read many related items, or understand how manufacturing process work, then they know what he talk is pure BS. However most public will not know that. They will just read and hear it because media call him 'defense' analyst that should be independent.
 
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