Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member


@Sandhi Yudha this's the example why I'm very cynical to those so call Local Defense Insiders/Consultant in Indonesia, and Twitter guy is the big example of that.

The media call them Independent defense consultant but the way some of them talking in media is clearly try to twist public opinion on the procurement direction they want to build.

Twitter guy clearly playing bit dirty. Calling DSME 1400 as unlicensed copy, and try to build public opinion on DSME capabilities. Look clearly DSME have less track record then Euro players like TKMS or NG, but their submarine so far working fine with ROKN. So why this name calling on DSME product ?

By his logic PAL LPD to Pinoy (Tarlac) should be also call unlicensed copy from Daesun LPD design. Come on due he dare saying that in Indonesian media ? If DSME 1400 have problem to be adjusted, well it's practically new design. Eventough it's based on Chanbogo that ROKN use, but it's modified under TNI-AL preferred specs.

PAL has no problem continue their second batch with DSME, but this administration that decided to hold it. If we see the PAL project with Damen and DSME that originated from previous administration, both project not being pursue to next batch by present administration. Could it be due to technical (as he try to potrait) or more on Political choices. I dare him to open it in Indonesian media (doubt he will do it cause will jeopardize his Projects).

He's talking pure BS on saying Indonesian industry working mostly on off set Projects. What Pindad and PAL doing at this moment is clearly part of licensing. It's just their learning curve being cut short.

In his video he's talking about TKMS reluctant to offer 214 cause has similarities with Singapore 218SG. Again pure BS. TKMS already see how PAL learning journey on 209 is cut short. Can it occurred to him TKMS offering next batch with PAL also on 209 to complete PAL learning curve?

DSME also only move to next level of licensing with 214 (KSS2) after they build 9 209/Chanbogo class or KSS1. I do believe TKMS knows that, that's why they insist with 209, cause Indonesia want to build it locally within PAL infrastructure. While PAL learning curve with 209 are not complete yet.

If it's build by TKMS completely, then it's different story. Now he talk BS on TKMS because his pure 'defense' analyst thinking or because he wants to twist public opinion from NG competitor ?

Look it's ok for Sales Agent to 'smooth' their brand image. However then talk directly in public that whose actually they're represent, and not hiding behind image as 'independent' defense consultant.

Now he talk on Investment that Government already build within PAL Submarine Infrastructure. Now can he be honest to tell public how much the adjustment on infrastructure (that build for 209) need to be done to work with NG Scorpene design (which being rumours will be similar then Brazilian ones)? Could it be TKMS insistence on continue building 209 with PAL asside to complete PAL learning curve, but also to adjust with PAL existing infrastructure ?

I'm no defense industry professional or insiders. However I already see many Industry as a Bankers. When you build different type of product, there will be adjustment on your infrastructure. It can be big, or it can be minimal. It's simply because there will adjustment due different specs.

PAL not open to public on detail infrastructure of their Submarine yards. However considering it's build for 209, then if they're going to work with NG, off course it's different specs of Submarine. It will be additional adjustment costs on their current infrastructure.

While if TKMS offering licensing 209, the adjustment will be minimal, as the specs not changing much. Will sales agent like Twitter Guy admit that in public ?

For those who read many defense discussion and read many related items, or understand how manufacturing process work, then they know what he talk is pure BS. However most public will not know that. They will just read and hear it because media call him 'defense' analyst that should be independent.
Many Indonesian netizens believe the crap of the online fanboys, so what do you expect from low educated morons if they are confronted with so called 'objective experts and professional journalists' like our Oracle on Twitter?

He fully exploit his "former Janes representativeship", media exposure and the ability to look so smart and wise with his overuse of abbreviations and fake clearvoyance.

Recently i read a comment somewhere on Twitter about the "unlicenced copy of U209" posted by such a smartass who believe holy in our friend. So Helman's tactic has effects on such kind of people. Alvas' statements are often incorrectly and also contradicting, but his fans not only lack knowledge and common sense but also lack the capability to remember his incorrect predictions and mistakes.
What can you expect from people who regard Globalfirepower as the ultimate source of defence knowledge and the most reliable database?

But yes, it is sad that such 'experts/journalists' get the chance to get a place in media like CNBC Indonesia, because that will confirm that those fanboyish netizens are right and it will strengthen their Dunning-Kruger syndrome.


Just an update from PAL.

Kapal Bantu Rumah Sakit (BRS) dr. Wahidin Sudirohusodo has successfully passed the Sea Acceptance Test (SAT).
According to the contract it should have a maximum speed of 18 kts, but during the SAT its maximum speed exceeds 19 kts. Most if not all medical equipment is already installed, so we can expect that this 124 m long ship can be commissioned begin next year.


As we can see on the photo, this ship is built from the start as hospital ship, without provision for a Bofors 40 mm or Oto Melara 76 mm gun.
 
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deadlast

New Member
Many Indonesian netizens believe the crap of the online fanboys, so what do you expect from low educated morons if they are confronted with so called 'objective experts and professional journalists' like our Oracle on Twitter?

He fully exploit his "former Janes representativeship", media exposure and the ability to look so smart and wise with his overuse of abbreviations and fake clearvoyance.

Recently i read a comment somewhere on Twitter about the "unlicenced copy of U209" posted by such a smartass who believe holy in our friend. So Helman's tactic has effects on such kind of people. Alvas' statements are often incorrectly and also contradicting, but his fans not only lack knowledge and common sense but also lack the capability to remember his incorrect predictions and mistakes.
What can you expect from people who regard Globalfirepower as the ultimate source of defence knowledge and the most reliable database?

But yes, it is sad that such 'experts/journalists' get the chance to get a place in media like CNBC Indonesia, because that will confirm that those fanboyish netizens are right and it will strengthen their Dunning-Kruger syndrome.


Just an update from PAL.

Kapal Bantu Rumah Sakit (BRS) dr. Wahidin Sudirohusodo has successfully passed the Sea Acceptance Test (SAT).
According to the contract it should have a maximum speed of 18 kts, but during the SAT its maximum speed exceeds 19 kts. Most if not all medical equipment is already installed, so we can expect that this 124 m long ship can be commissioned begin next year.


As we can see on the photo, this ship is built from the start as hospital ship, without provision for a Bofors 40 mm or Oto Melara 76 mm gun.
Also no well deck and rear ramp on these ship either, just side ramp on both side, thus change class from LPD to Ro-Ro ship.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
@Sandhi Yudha I post the video from YouTube originated from PT. PAL official video. Seems your link from FB got some problem (which is usually happens when linking video from FB).



Just add like previous hospital ships, this ship medical facility will get equivalent with Type C hospital (under Indonesia Ministry of Health hospital classification).
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
@Sandhi Yudha I post the video from YouTube originated from PT. PAL official video. Seems your link from FB got some problem (which is usually happens when linking video from FB).



Just add like previous hospital ships, this ship medical facility will get equivalent with Type C hospital (under Indonesia Ministry of Health hospital classification).
Thank you for sharing, sadly yesterday PAL only uploaded their video on that useless Facebook, not yet on Twitter or Youtube.

Here we have an article about that LEN have upgraded the FPB-57 Mk II patrol boat KRI Ajak 653, and installed their new Mandhala Combat Management System. This CMS is integrated with the Bofors 57 mm Mk.2 and Bofors 40 mm gun.

 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

PT. PAL FB shown it's CEO part of several SOE CEO's that signed commitment on usage of Capital Injection. The Signing was done in MoF with Minister of SOE as witness.

This part of commitment where each SOE that received capital injection agree to used the capital injection under MoF supervision toward Investment purpose. Before PAL already been agreed to get IDR 1.3T (or USD 90 mio) as injection toward completement of their Submarine manufacturing facilities.

Question will be how flexible the facilities will be for different specs of Submarine. Initial facility build with DSME supervision for DSME 1400. Could this facilities be used (on present condition) toward other specs of Submarine (like NG Scorpene based) without additional Investment in facilities ?

Indonesian MinDef has not decided which type of Submarine will be chosen to complete PAL Submarine manufacturing journey.

If the existing facilities can be adjusted to different specs of Submarine types without much adjustment, then it will provide PAL flexibilities on getting different potential Partner for Submarine manufacturing. However if the facilities need more extensive adjustment (if being used for other type Subs asside 209 based), then TKMS got better option (if DSME being decided to be dropped as next batch Partner).

We can see how DSME facilities being build as example. They're using 209 as based for KSS1 then 214 as KSS2 before moving to their own design of KSS3. However even KSS3 shown design that being influence from their experience in KSS1&2.

This's actually happened in many Industry. The base design on their learning curve journey most of the time will be the based off their own design, due to learning curve and the manufacturing facilities that being design for evolution of specs from their based design.

So this is the question that must also be calculate if the next Partner using different specs of Submarine type from DSME 1400 or 209 based.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
After some months of silence about the X3K 63 m trimaran program, at last PT Lundin/North Sea Boats shared something with us.
Until now we always saw both KRI Klewang 625 and KRI Golok 688 with slow speed in the water. Its was almost like that the boats were underpowered and not fast at all as promised.

But now we can see that the KRI Golok 688 can go faster. PT Lundin talks about more than 30 kts and in this video we see more detailed information and more about the interior and exterior design, with a good view on the hangar for RHIBs up to 12 meter long.


 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
|"Menkeu Sri Mulyani Indrawati resmi menyerahkan Penyertaan Modal Negara (PMN) sebesar Rp 1,28 triliun kepada PT PAL Indonesia (Persero). Anggaran tersebut dialokasikan untuk pembuatan kapal selam."|

So from which i understand this budget which PAL will get is for the construction of submarines.

 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
from which i understand this budget which PAL will get is for the construction of submarines.
To complete the current submarine manufacturing facilities to be more precise based on PAL media information. Then the interesting question next, is how flexible this facilities for different specs of Submarine manufacturing.


Interestingly in August PAL CEO already mentioned that the facilities will be capable to build 4 submarine of Scorpene types (the media that time call simultaneously, which no submarine facilities in the size of PAL ones can do it simultaneously. Even DSME ones that used as model for PAL facilities can't do it. However many 'fanboys' in local forums eat that information as whole).

For me this suggest NG do have preference so far as potential partner for next batch. If this is got follow through, shown similar deals with what NG done in Brazil.

However no details whether this means the facilities already going to be finish (as this actually the second stage of PAL Submarine facilities) capable fitting for Scorpene based specs or still fitted within initial specs that being build with DSME supervision for DSME 1400.


Put his interview in Dahlan Iskan podcast early 2021. (For Non Indonesian Dahlan Iskan was SOE Minister during SBY administration). In here he's clearly shown his ambition not only to finish PAL submarine journey, but also to build Unmanned Submarine. This guy (before being choose as PAL CEO) already prepared with his naval design agency concept of Unmanned Submarine as more Economics way to patrol Indonesian underwater territory. He claimed that the UAS concept that infact landed him PAL CEO job.


Perhaps that's why in media he's also call the facilities to build 2 'midget' submarine of 30m. Before the concept for midget submarine on that size will be manned ones. However seems with this guy in PAL helm, he wants to make it as unmanned submarine. In the interview he clearly put 20-30m size UAS concept that already (in his claim) ready to be implemented and enter manufacturing stage.

Quite big claim from present PAL CEO on submarine program. Let's see how this is going to develop. So far it's still big claim in media only. For Indonesian SOE which master on big claim in media, all has to be taken as grain of salt at this moment. One thing for sure, PAL already got Investment to complete submarine facilities. Let's see how far their claim actually can be confirmed by 'finance' guys that going to monitor.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Well, we got her some more information about the facilities built/under construction/are planned for the submarine building area.

|"Dituturkan oleh Dirut PT PAL Indonesia (Persero), Bapak Kaharuddin Djenod, adapun peningkatan kemampuan produksi yang dimaksud ialah fasilitas-fasilitas yang akan dilengkapi.. Fasilitas tersebut meliputi pembangunan Ship Lift, Glassfiber Reinforced Plastic (GRP) Shop, Painting Shop, Blasting Shop, Torpedo Shop, dll."|



And here PAL give us some more infornation about the equipment and facilities on board the KRI dr.Something 991

|"Selain dilengkapi dengan fasilitas medis juga ditunjang dengan fasilitas mobilitas evakuasi medis seperti, 2 unit Landing Craft Vehicle Personnel (LCVP), 1 unit Rigid Hull Inflatable Boat (RHIB) serta 2 unit Ambulance Boat."|


The ambulance boats are made of 5083 aluminium alloy, which means Magnesium is mixed into the aluminium which give the alloy a high level of corrosion resistance, also in seawater.


A good start of the year is a day of Naval Artillery Exercises.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
What I'm shaking my head is that despite all the big talk, many of Indonesian SOE like PAL have still got some big mentality problem:
1. Tendency to work only to full fill work quota
2. Implementation without sufficient check and control.

That misshap on their twitter seems only a small matter within their Corporate Communication team. However shown big mentality problem within Indonesian SOE still persists. Their only doing job as order, and Quality become number two or even three. The most important thing, we do the job, the quality results is another matter.

No wonder many SOE especially on manufacturing industry got many delays on the job, after the product enter QC stage. The mentality that QC being done after the process, and not end to end throughout the process. Mentality that QC responsibilities only lies with the people from QC department, and not throughout the wholle ranks.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
What I'm shaking my head is that despite all the big talk, many of Indonesian SOE like PAL have still got some big mentality problem:
1. Tendency to work only to full fill work quota
2. Implementation without sufficient check and control.

That misshap on their twitter seems only a small matter within their Corporate Communication team. However shown big mentality problem within Indonesian SOE still persists. Their only doing job as order, and Quality become number two or even three. The most important thing, we do the job, the quality results is another matter.

No wonder many SOE especially on manufacturing industry got many delays on the job, after the product enter QC stage. The mentality that QC being done after the process, and not end to end throughout the process. Mentality that QC responsibilities only lies with the people from QC department, and not throughout the wholle ranks.
Such actions make my sometimes indeed sad. The lack of responsibility, being too lazy to cross-check facts and checking your work for type-errors. Sometimes they just translate using a dictionary without knowing the meaning of the sentence. It just look so amateur. (I also make often mistakes here, but hey, i am not a professional and this is just a discussion. )

Anyway, this article is about that Turkey's Aselsan has completed factory acceptance tests (FAT) of the Zargana Torpedo Countermeasure System. The tests of Zargana were attended by Pakistan’s Attachee, a Pakistan Navy representative, and STM Defence officials, according to Aselsan’s most recent bulletin. The FATs were also carried out as part of Zargana’s integration with Indonesian submarines.

So if im not wrong, this Zargana FAT will be retrofitted into the Nagapasa Class of boats. Will all three Nagapasa submarines be installed with the Zargana?



 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Will all three Nagapasa submarines be installed with the Zargana?

According this Jane's article frm 2020, the contract with PAL to put this system on all 3 TNI-AL DSME 1400 Submarine. So far PAL once shown the system already implemented in Nagapasa, don't know if they already progressing to install this on the other two.


This Turkish defense VLOG also talk the contract is for all 3 DSME 1400. It's similar installment method with Turkish own 209 1400.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

According this Jane's article frm 2020, the contract with PAL to put this system on all 3 TNI-AL DSME 1400 Submarine. So far PAL once shown the system already implemented in Nagapasa, don't know if they already progressing to install this on the other two.


This Turkish defense VLOG also talk the contract is for all 3 DSME 1400. It's similar installment method with Turkish own 209 1400.
Thank you for sharing.


-------------------------------------


After finishing all the trials, the first of two ordered hospital ships just passed the commodore inspection.
The ship is scheduled to be handed over to the navy on 14 January 2022.

PT PAL just uploaded this post. In this video we can see what is achieved in the first stage with the investment of Rp 1,5 trilliun: the assembly of KRI Alugoro 405 and the overhaul of KRI Cakra 401. The second stage with the investment of Rp 1,28 trilliun consists of the additional buildings for the workshops and an expansion in front of the main structure.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
FI30_srakAEz5Sd.jpeg

This is the graphic on Bakamla Recruitment, and that's not what I want to point out. However more on the Graphic Image of Bakamla 110m OPV with what's seems 57mm gun.

From what I gather, MinDef so far only give clearence for Coast Guard duties as non Military agency only for up to 30mm gun. So I sense Bakamla by putting this graphic still negotiating for bit larger gun for their bigger OPV.

In sense, the need for ASEAN Coast Guard to armed themselves for bigger gun as direct response toward China Coast Guard that already put bigger gun on their vessels. This also creating a Maritime Constabulary forces that getting closer toward 'civilian' quasy military.

Still existance of stronger Coast Guard within Indonesian Maritime clearly shown much importance, despite what TNI-AL feelt on another agency taking over some of what used to be their traditional 'piece of pie'.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
In this video we can see what is achieved in the first stage with the investment of Rp 1,5 trilliun: the assembly of KRI Alugoro 405 and the overhaul of KRI Cakra 401
Even after so many Video shown on the inside of PAL Submarine facilities, there are still scores of Indonesian fan boys even local media that still believe PAL have capabilities toward multiple submarine building simultanously.

The Video shown how the process of Final assembly of Alugoro take more than half space inside the facilities. From begining PAL on previous management already talk that this facility build for Submarine manufacturing and final assembly on 2000+ ton class. The previous Management never claim abilities for simultanously build. They really must maje clear the difference between simultanous production, and serial productions.

I do suspects present PAL management have more abilities then previous one on PR side. But I begin to wonder if that translate toward real capabilities on finishing the project. Present CEO seems more interested on image building.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Today the first of two ordered hospital ships and the KRI Golok 688 are officially handed over to the navy.

KRI Golok 688 will hopefully be equipped with better and more advanced armament in the future. Such a futuristic and stealthy design (according to KompasTV the most advanced stealth ship of this planet), but equipped with just a manually operated 20 mm gun.

The construction of the second hospital ship is now at 59%. I expect it will get the number 992.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

It's been put by Indonesian Media that ROKN offer 3 second hand corvettes to Indonesia. Some Indonesian defense enthusiats thinking this must be related to ROK effort to revive batch 2 DSME 1400.

It could be right, but I also gather some informal information that ROK also try to compete with Japanese on 30FFM. So far present administration MinDef already commited with Babcock Arrow140 and FREMM. However there's rumour they are looking also for something lighter design for more quantity that can be build by local shipyards (outside PAL).

Japan still try lobby for somekind derivative from their 30FFM. Thus it's probable ROK try to offer their latest iteration on FFG III.


ROK already offering the inventory of Pohang corvettes to Philipine and Vietnam. Perhaps it's part of their diplomacy to enhance SEA nation patroling capabilities in SCS. However I do suspect they offering Pohang as stop gap before move to FFG III design that being build as Pohang replacement anyway.
 
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