Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Ananda

The Bunker Group

The exercise practically already a week ago. Put the video on CNN Indonesia as the Video also talking on Political shifts toward defense due to SCS development.

The exercise conducted in Indonesian part of SCS (Natuna Sea), being involved with 33 vessels of TNI-AL and air elements from TNI-AU and TNI-AL air wing. However the political mood can be seen by a commentary from one of Parliament members that attend the exercise. Basically it's more on understanding eventough in quantity the TNI-AL fleet seems sufficient, but most of them it's aging and not in par technologically with China.

The Political acknowledgement that China aggressive behavior in SCS that raise the tempo on potential clash, also being put in the commentary on Video.
 

deadlast

New Member
Haven't found anything official that say the definitive contract already sign, or Bofors already building the assets ordered. So far only the 2019 Bofors announcement that announced preliminary contracts for 4 Bofors 57mm Mk3 for KCR 60.

That's why I still say anything can happen. Eventough considering KCR 60 #3 to #6 are using Western standard sensors suits, it's likely Bofors is the preferred choices.
http://instagr.am/p/CT1z9qHl3ld/
That's the only one I can find, PT PAL in the process of installing Bofors 57mm Mk3 and 20mm gun for KRI Kerambit and probably the rest of the class.
Here's some more,

KRI Kapak (625), one of the two new ship part of the Sampari-class (KCR-60M) third batch.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

This's something embarrassing for the Navy. Well let's see how this's going to develop. Those ships break the law is one thing. The should pay the fines is right thing. Question now, where's the fines money goes.


By law (UU Bakamla) the one that should handle this kind of sea boundaries transgressions should be Bakamla. This's why I say before in this thread that there's interest in Navy or related parties that try to keep their piece of pies. The discussion with Parliament on how to strengthen maritime constabulary duties with Bakamla/Coast Guard need to be finish all soon (especially the technical derivative regulations).

Don't get me wrong, doesn't mean if the jurisdiction already move to BAKAMLA, then this side 'jobs' will be disappear completely. This's Indonesia after all. Finding legal loop holes is the art for many bureaucracy, and Bakamla or Navy like it or not part of that.

However at least it will be harder to do, if the law build to make the rules of games more transparent. Perhaps the Area Navy Command in the article is right. The Navy is not receiving the payment. However this's should be follow up with whose take the fines payment.

The fines is legal thing. Those ships has to pay the fines is right thing to do. The question is always where the fines goes ?

For me, this's just an example why the smaller patrol boats of the Navy should be move to BAKAMLA. Navy should handle defense and not maritime constabulary duties. KCR 60 should be the smallest vessels in the Navy in future, all smaller ones should be move to BAKAMLA, as they are only good on doing constabulary duties and not Defense ones.

Why it's important, well the snippets that I got shown the scope of work of those small Patrol Boats (mostly those under KAL not KRI), are the ones that can be used on this kind of 'grey area' jurisdiction. Those are the ones that being used for 'brown' water coastal area.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
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deadlast

New Member
Thank you for sharing!

So the Bofors 57 mm Mk.3 and 20 mm guns are now installed on the KRI Kerambit 627 and the KRI Kapak 625, will the KRI Panah 626 also get the same armament soon?
I saw there are more vessels in the hall, but their numbers are not visible.
Should be KRI Halasan (630) based on PT PAL Instagram post above, the contract details with BAE System mention 4 unit Bofors 57mm Mk.3 gun, so it will be for these four boat (625,626,627,630). For the 20mm gun, all of them already got two 20mm gun on each boats, IINM. The four of them will most likely get their Terma radar, countermeasure, sensor and CMS in this docking period as well.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
We got the answer on our questions.

The Indonesian Navy plans to equip its new class of two 90 m offshore patrol vessels (OPVs) with a Turkish combat management system (CMS) and weapons for anti-submarine and anti-ship operations.

It seems that the Indonesian Navy has selected the Advent combat system from Turkish software company Havelsan, this system will be linked to the Oto Melara 76/62 mm gun.

In my opinion these 90 m long vessels can be the perfect replacement for the 16 Project 1331 Parchim class corvettes.
Janes posted a new article about the OPV 90 project. But actually not much new information in this report, only that Havelsan will work together with Hollandse Signaalapparaten.

 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
But actually not much new information in this report, only that Havelsan will work together with Hollandse Signaalapparaten.
Guess Havelsan provide enough price cut subsidise on the project. Not unusual for a relatively newer players to cut the deal on export. We see that with South Korean and Chinese. Basically TNI-AL/MinDef still want Thales product, but try with Havelsan to get better pricing on 'derivative'.

It's in my opinion Thales product with Turkey Production costs. If it's working, I think they will go with it for next OPV's. Seems this OPV 90 after all that going to be Parchim replacement. Thus the numbers could be quite significant in future.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
I put the file from Fincantieri Q3 Investors Meeting presentation. In slide 11, Fincantieri still put 6 FREMM Project with Indonesia as soft backlog.

Thus it's not a firm backlog of Production yet. Simply put it's already have confirmed order, but not yet finish on financing matters. This's standard Investors Relation presentation.

So this's confirm that the FREMM deals are not reaching Arrow 140 stage yet. Thus the backlog deals basically also can't yet being confirm by PAL as Fincantieri partner on the project. For that, PAL can only confirming to public their Arrow 140 based Frigates.

This's clarify on questions that circulate in social media and enthusiasts forums. This is also means Indonesian administration must finalize financing matters soon, otherwise the deal with Fincantieri on FREMM can technically postpone.
 

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Ananda

The Bunker Group

This's why TNI especially TNI-AL got problem payment with Pertamina. The operational budget so far not calculating enough the situation in SCS for example.

The fisherman in CNN Indonesia told that he doesn't see enough Indonesian patrol ships either from TNI-AL, Bakamla/Coast Guard, or even Fisheries Agency in Natuna Sea. Shown in my opinion they have problem operationally to provide enough budget for constant patrolling in Natuna Sea especially northern section, which crisscross with China nine dash line.

This's also why Bakamla chief ask more support from the Parliament for more budget not just on more OPV's and Patrol Boats, but also on operational budget support. As for the Navy, it's then a question that also being ask by one or two ex TNI-AL chief; With Political ambitions to operate kind of Frigates like FREMM, can the administration supported not only increase in procurement but also huge increase in operational budget?

But then again Indonesian politicians seems not really care on that. As long they already provided the fund for 'flashy' assets, then how to operate them is not their concerns.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

From Hydrodynamic Technology Center FB pages. Talking on meeting with TNI-AL team on their progress fine tuning OPV90. I put it in here, eventough is not really put much new information, but their page admitted that the design basically derived from Martadinata class Sigma PKR 10514. They redesign and reduce the size to fit classification of OPV/Corvettes.

This clear up the speculations before where the designer based this OPV90 from. I don't know if they're reverse engineering the design, however seems that's what they're doing. This in my opinion shown the reverse engineering the design involved PAL's team, eventough the building done by Private shipyard DRU.

Personally I'm more interested with this OPV90 Project then either Arrow 140 based Frigates or FREMM. This OPV90 in my opinion what's translate from previous National Corvettes (KorNas) program. As I've mentioned before, this program if it's successful, will provide main backbone of TNI-AL.

Regardless how smooth the Frigates program will be, it will only create force of 8-12 Frigates plus 2-4 Interim second hand Frigates at most. TNI-AL for considerable future will be mostly dominated by Corvettes/Large Patrol Boats force. This means even only replacing by one by one base, it's potential talking about 30-40 Corvettes/Large Patrol Boats size fleet.

The kind of vessels type like OPV90 or KCR60 will dominate the fleet. Seems it is the plan to make this type of vessels on other yards outside PAL. Especially when PAL facilities will be full involved with Frigates program. After all to reach one to one replacement, PAL will not be able to do it by themselves. Besides productivity wise, those Private yards is more productive compared to SOE's yard like PAL.

I hope this is where the plan consistently will be. Operational wise, with backbone of operations handle by Corvettes/Large Patrol Boats fleet is realistically more manageable by TNI-AL. The Frigates in the end more come on less frequently but more high scale operation and not day to day patrolling operation.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing, but i think you posted this double.

I also expect that DRU got assistance from PAL for the redesigning from SIGMA 10514 to OPV 90, at least they got the blueprints. Its just impossible to redesign a ship from a visual inspection or just looking to internetphotos.


This's why TNI especially TNI-AL got problem payment with Pertamina. The operational budget so far not calculating enough the situation in SCS for example.

The fisherman in CNN Indonesia told that he doesn't see enough Indonesian patrol ships either from TNI-AL, Bakamla/Coast Guard, or even Fisheries Agency in Natuna Sea. Shown in my opinion they have problem operationally to provide enough budget for constant patrolling in Natuna Sea especially northern section, which crisscross with China nine dash line.

This's also why Bakamla chief ask more support from the Parliament for more budget not just on more OPV's and Patrol Boats, but also on operational budget support. As for the Navy, it's then a question that also being ask by one or two ex TNI-AL chief; With Political ambitions to operate kind of Frigates like FREMM, can the administration supported not only increase in procurement but also huge increase in operational budget?

But then again Indonesian politicians seems not really care on that. As long they already provided the fund for 'flashy' assets, then how to operate them is not their concerns.
It is actually insane and unacceptable that those chinese survey vessels can do their job in Indonesian EEZ for two months without any interruption or intervention from the Indonesian Coastguard or Navy.

It is almost like that the Coastguard or Navy were forbidden by a certain minister to do so.

 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
almost like that the Coastguard or Navy
I do see there's complexity on internal debate in internal Jokowi's cabinet on handling the issue. We do have factions that want to get more in bed with China on Investment and trade issue. Still they are not reaching Duterte level yet. On the other hand there're hawks on China issue. Thus I see the level of Navy and Coast Guard handling on Chinese incursion are in the boundaries of compromises between the factions.

Jokowi's seems in the middle, do remember that items like FREMM (as example) will not be under serious negotiation on procurement if Chinese not increasing the tension in SCS. On the other hand asside on operational budget as I've mentioned before, the frequency level of patroling in SCS also seems happen due to compromise on getting 'middle ground' level of confrontation.

See between the lines of Navy language in media; 'we monitored only as they have the rights on international navigation'. However not directly answering some analysts that questioning the patrern of Chinese so call 'inocent international navigations'. So they are doing some patroling, put in media, but not raising the frequencies tempo of patrols on matching Chinese frequencies.

This is why the Natuna's fishermen saying. The Navy and Coast Guard only doing 'occasional' patroling in Northern part of Natuna sea. So that's it. Combination of operational budget factor and Political compromise.

However sooner or later, Indonesia can not keep doing this 'sitting in the fence' attitude, if China keep continues increasing the 'heat' on SCS. China attitudes is always increasing certain pressure toward the SCS neighbours that they consideres walk accross the line. However the lines it self are determine by them only. So will Indonesia willing to just 'sitting in the fence' while the fence it self being keep push back by China ? That's what this administration and the next ones need to answer.

Hopefully they are 'sitting in the fence' as buying time until they have enough back up resources to ready across the fence if they have to.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
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Toptob

Active Member
See between the lines of Navy language in media; 'we monitored only as they have the rights on international navigation'. However not directly answering some analysts that questioning the patrern of Chinese so call 'inocent international navigations'. So they are doing some patroling, put in media, but not raising the frequencies tempo of patrols on matching Chinese frequencies.
I can understand that you don't want to start ramming Chinese spy ships right away. But I think we can at least expect them to send a ship to closely (in eyesight at all times) with all their sensors and listening equipment aimed at those ships just to piss them off. I think anything less would be an indication that your suspicions might very well be correct.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
A good place for Terma to open an office in Surabaya, the city of their biggest customer in Indonesia.


And it seems that the first KCR-60 Batch III patrolboat is ready to be launched.

 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
But I think we can at least expect them to send a ship to closely (in eyesight at all times) with all their sensors and listening equipment aimed at those ships just to piss them off
Well it can be two ways. The Chinese perhaps also send their survey vessels milling around in our EEZ, just to piss us and make a point. The fact is, we still don't know what Chinese survey vessels aim for.

All potential still there, survey fishery stocks, potential geological reserve, or mapping the sea floor for potential submarine routes (this also the suspicion on those vessels transferring on three ALKI). However as long as they're not doing any exploitation activities, there's nothing Indonesian can do. They're not breaking International Law.


This's quite interesting deduction on how Indonesia should act on the situation. Which's already I have point out on my previous post on this matter, and also you have point out. Increase the tempo of Naval presence by all maritime agencies (TNI-AL, Bakamla, or Fisheries Protection).

This's what my point is. Are the frequency can't be increase due to operational budget or Political consideration ? For me, I sense combination of both.

The problem in Natuna has push back Pro China lobby, however the COVID situation also gave them some credit. Has to be acknowled that the availability of Chinese vaccine (despite claims efficacy that's lower than Western ones), crucial to lower the COVID cases in Indonesia after the peak in Mei-July this year.

Like it or not CCP COVID vaccine diplomacy work, especially in developing nations that don't have enough access toward Western vaccines. Their vaccine is working to help significantly reduce level of hospitalisation and mortality rate. Despite lower effacacies with Western ones.

This make some nations that have dispute with China take back and rethink, perhaps they still can reasons with China. This help causes by Pro China lobby that mostly work from trade and investment angle against those who wants to take tougher action against China on security issue.

Indonesia so far still try to find balance on both issue. That's why I sense the level of naval engagement being hold to keep that balance asside on operational budget issue.

Personally just in my previous post, I also think that reasoning with China also need to back up by our own resolve to put enough resources to do that. That's why personally I prefer for much larger budget toward coast guard/Bakamla to increase tempo on constabulary maritime function. While TNI-AL focus more on Corvettes/OPV rather than Frigates or Coastal patrol boats. It's better having 10 Frigates but with 30-40 Corvettes/OPV then 15 Frigates and 15 Corvettes/OPV.

That's why I hope most of those KAL or any patrol boats smaller then KCR60 being relegated to Coast Guard. The government in my opinion has to dare reducing the scope of Navy while enlarging Coast Guards. This will be more able to create Navy that are more focus and have resources for modern naval engagement, and not constabulary duties.
 
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Toptob

Active Member
Well, covid discussion aside, it is definitely another factor in geopolitics. I think letting in a dragon to chase away the weasel will come to bite you in the back. The way I see it the Chinese "empire" desires it's old role as the worlds (but at least Asia's) leading power. And in their optimum outcome all surrounding countries and peoples would end up as tributary or vassal states, like in the past when everyone had to bow to China.

Now what you say makes a lot of sense @Ananda . But much like search and rescue, maritime security institutions should also have resources on stand-by for when a situation needs a response. So even if they don't have resources for permanent patrols they should be able to send something when there's an incursion.

But I do like those KCR 60's! I just don't like them as patrol boats for the navy. I think they should put a bank of ASM's on all of them, maybe something Israeli (or Indian?) and build the missiles in country. Maybe build 30 or 40 of those... you can still harass fishing boats with missiles on the back, but you can't harass a serious enemy without some real firepower.

One last thing I don't get is why they need to purchase two new classes of frigates that basically do the same thing, when they have a yard that apparently is good enough at building Sigma's that they can re-engineer them. So why not just build hulls like that instead? Looking at the TNI-AL, they're gonna equip them with a colorful collection of different equipment anyway. Equipment suppliers will help with integrating their systems anyway, and making it a domestic project will help with establishing or expanding the local expertise.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
The way I see it the Chinese "empire" desires it's old role as the worlds (but at least Asia's) leading power. And in their optimum outcome all surrounding countries and peoples would end up as tributary or vassal states, like in the past when everyone had to bow to China.
We knows that what CCP sell to their public. China has to go back as 'middle kingdom' where everything center around China. After all this is their goal to reverse 'century of humiliation'. Just see how every 50cent or wumao write in every online posting, forums and media. China will be 'benevolent' power that will 'guide' everyone else. With that kind of thinking deeply ingrained by CCP toward their own population, it's expected that their foreign policy will have to be in that direction to keep in line with what they already sell domestically.

That's why I say, to reason with China, anyone else need to be back up by their own resources and resolve thinking. In a way I do admired Vietnam crew willingness to ram their ships against larger ships. Whether Indonesian or Chinese, just to shown their resolve. It's not diplomatic way, and can create potential bigger problem. Indonesian maritime agencies and Navy don't have to mimicking that, but they have at same time has to increase the patrolling frequencies, to shown presence and resolve.

you can still harass fishing boats with missiles on the back, but you can't harass a serious enemy without some real firepower.
You don't need Navy to do that. You need more robust Coast Guard to do that. It's more maritime constabulary duties. This's why I always support more robust Bakamla. TNI-AL should be the back up for Bakamla, something that can't be done if Bakamla still in this present condition.

don't get is why they need to purchase two new classes of frigates that basically do the same thing, when they have a yard that apparently is good enough at building Sigma's that they can re-engineer them. So why not just build hulls like that instead?
That's a question that related to Business concerned and Political choices. Something that we as enthusiasts can only speculate ;).
 
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