Indonesia: 'green water navy'

deadlast

New Member
Thank you for sharing!

It seems that the two 20 mm guns (the South-African Denel GI-2 ones?) are already placed. We just have to wait for the Bofors 57 mm Mk.3.

Btw, can this be the AU-220M 57 mm gun on the first of KCR-60 class?
Yes, it is the AU-220M gun but without the "stealth" cover flap/structure as the CGI render on the article Ananda share.

As for the 20mm gun, no, it's not Denel GI-2, if it based on prior photos of KRI Kerambit then it is actually Yugoimport-SDPR M71/08 20x110mm autocannon.
Basically a navalised single barrel version of the Zastava M-55 triple-gun with some kinds of EO based fire-control system on each gun.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
the 20mm gun, no, it's not Denel GI-2, if it based on prior photos of KRI Kerambit then it is actually Yugoimport-SDPR M71/08 20x110mm autocannon.
At least they still maintain 20mm for most secondary gun. Do you heard more information on TNI-AL going to make older 20mm gun to be remotely capable ? Reason I ask as TNI-AD with Pindad and other local vendors doing effort to turn manually operated 12.7mm even 20mm in Armoured Vehicles toward RCWS capabilities. Just don't heard that effort much with TNI-AL.

I meant it won't be much effort to do it. Scores of vendors have that kind of kits in the market.
 
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deadlast

New Member
At least they still maintain 20mm for most secondary gun. Do you heard more information on TNI-AL going to make older 20mm gun to be remotely capable ? Reason I ask as TNI-AD with Pindad and other local vendors doing effort to turn 12.7mm even 20mm in Armoured Vehicles toward RWCS capabilities. Just don't heard that effort much with TNI-AL.

I meant it won't be much effort to do it. Scores of vendors have that kind of kits in the market.
The recent trends of the navy does seems to "update" themselves into remote control system era, but not without caveat, they bought those system from a bunch of supplier and vendor instead standardize into single system despite using practically the same gun. Case in point, they use the same Mk44 Bushmaster II 30x173mm autocannon for 3 recently bought remote control weapon system: Leonardo OTO MARLIN-WS, MSI-DS SEAHAWK DS A1, and MSI-DS SEAHAWK LW A1. While all these system use the same gun, they come from two separate vendor thus adding complexities on their support aspect (training and spare parts/maintenance), negating the advantages of using the same gun in the first place. Even on the same vendor they bought a different version (MSI-DS SEAHAWK DS A1 and MSI-DS SEAHAWK LW A1) just a few year apart of each other despite the same role and requirements of the said gun on both of the vessel.

On the 20mm caliber for secondary gun, the navy has four different caliber of 20mm in inventory namely:
  • 20x82mm for Denel GA-1 on Martadinata-class and Makassar-class,
  • 20x110mm for Yugoimport-SDPR M71/08 on Pari-class, Sampari-class and several ship of Pattimura & Fatahillah-class,
  • 20x110mmRB for old Oerlikon gun on most small patrol vessel,
  • 20x139mm for Denel GI-2 & Rheinmetall Rh202 on a lot of them
Imagine during combat sortie one of the ship asked for "20mm" ammo from another ship and turned out they got different caliber of "20mm" gun on their ship. (don't make me start on the 30mm gun & cartridge)

Seeing how diverse the caliber and gun, I don't think the navy has any intention on upgrading these 20mm into remote control system, it's one thing if they wants to standardize into only one caliber of 20mm upgrade them with remote control system and retire the other 20mm caliber, but from what I can see so far that's just not how the navy works, they tends to use the gun as-is (not upgraded) as long as possible even install them on the newer vessel if needed.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Imagine during combat sortie one of the ship asked for "20mm" ammo from another ship and turned out they got different caliber of "20mm" gun on their ship. (don't make me start on the 30mm gun & cartridge)
I thought those 20mm gun can at least shares similar ammo, like Rheinmettal 120mm L44 and L55. Thanks for the information. I'm not that familiar with the information on Navy secondary guns compared to their main guns of 57mm and 76 mm.

One of snippets that I got from 'finance' people is that, like many other governments procurement, the tendency for short term 'multiple projects' are in the area of support assets. The Big ones facing much more scrutinize. So eventough what your info on 20mm situation in Navy is something that I'm not familiar with, but also not surprised considering the snippets from 'finance' people that I heard.

Perhaps this's why the 'finance' people still struggling to get all bureaucracy to be disciplined with multi years budget projects calculation (not just in defense bureaucracy). One of the aim on multi-year projects is to get more disciplined on procurement. In paper it should reduce tendency on short term 'multiple projects' toward fewer more efficient longer-term projects. However Indonesian bureaucracy is notorious to find loop holes.

That's why I once wrote in one of Indonesian threads, as finance professional I'm not envy the jobs challenge that government 'finance' people have to face in dealing with the various ministries bureaucracy. Especially in dealing with budgeting and procurement practices.
 

deadlast

New Member
I thought those 20mm gun can at least shares similar ammo, like Rheinmettal 120mm L44 and L55. Thanks for the information. I'm not that familiar with the information on Navy secondary guns compared to their main guns of 57mm and 76 mm.
They got a lot more (only cartridges, not counting the types of gun using these caliber):
  • 2 kinds of 57mm, (57x438mmR & 57x348mmSR)
  • 2 kinds of 40mm, (40x311mmR & 40x364mmR)
  • 4 kinds of 30mm, (30x210mmB, 30x173mm, 30x170mm, & 30x165mm)
  • 2 kinds of 12.7mm, (12.7x99mm & 12.7x108mm).
Not to mention old rare unusual calibers like Bofors 120x616mmR also Soviet 37x252mmSR and 25x218mm.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
They got a lot more (only cartridges, not counting the types of gun using these caliber):
  • 2 kinds of 57mm, (57x438mmR & 57x348mmSR)
  • 2 kinds of 40mm, (40x311mmR & 40x364mmR)
  • 4 kinds of 30mm, (30x210mmB, 30x173mm, 30x170mm, & 30x165mm)
  • 2 kinds of 12.7mm, (12.7x99mm & 12.7x108mm).
Not to mention old rare unusual calibers like Bofors 120x616mmR also Soviet 37x252mmSR and 25x218mm.
Is the new AU-220M using the same 57 mm rounds as the old AK-725 twin 57 mm guns on the Parchim/Kapitan Pattimura class?
 

deadlast

New Member
Is the new AU-220M using the same 57 mm rounds as the old AK-725 twin 57 mm guns on the Parchim/Kapitan Pattimura class?
Yes, they are using the same caliber, also the same caliber as the sacred AZP S-60 AA gun in 57x348mmSR, but if they wanted to take advantages of the more modern fire control system of AU-220M then they would really need the newer smart round of this caliber, particularly if the navy wanted to use this gun to perform in the ship's anti-air duty.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

From PT. PAL FB (from Kris FB I delete the link, as seems it's coming from PAL anyway).

That LCVP actually quite fast, even faster than the RHIB. Honestly I thought they can only do 20+ knots.
To be honest, i also thought that those LCVPs only can reach speeds up to 10+ kts. Absolutely not faster than RHIB!


A collection of photos from recent exercises, including some nice photos of 76 mm firepower.


 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
["Sukses hancurkan rudal musuh" is actually shooting at an imaginary non-existent missile. In fact we still dont know if this Oerlikon Millennium 35 mm CIWS is effective against sea-skimming anti-ship missiles.

But this exercise is an improvement, because normally they aim with the manually operated 12,7/20/30 mm guns at low and slow flying turboprop aircrafts at a range of about 200 meters....


And here we have a video, with the recent bilateral exercise from 31 Oktober-3 November 2021 starting from 4:14.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

This's two days old information. Kris FB seems got it from TNI-AL Instagram. When I see this two days ago, don't want to put it here yet. Seems after some searching, There's other informal information that I heard shown MinDef did already submitted Project that already reach 'finance' people for more Maritime base Helicopters. For that I decide to put it here.

Seems they're looking for candidate to replace their NBO-105 which come from IPTN in the 80's. I presume why they're talking with Airbus on H145M. All this to enhance their fleet of Panthers (AS 565). Interesting on that H225M, as not many Navy that use them.

IMG_6318_H225M_Naval_Combat_Brazilian_Navy.jpg


Question if they (TNI-AL) will use similar specs that Brazilian Helibras prepared for Brazilian Navy H225M (picture from Airbus Helicopter). This's large enough helicopter that unlike AS565 can not be use with existing Corvettes/Light Frigates. However with they are now building Larger Frigates on Iver/Type 31 based and if FREMM got on the way too, they at least going to need to give 8 Frigates with this class of Helicopter.

NAS-332-Super-Puma.jpeg

This is not first time TNI-AL air wing has medium-large helicopter. The record shown in 80's they got 4 NAS 332M with 2 already wired for ASuW (with Bendix radar), although no solid information that I got, shown whether their planned ASW kit already installed (Picture from TNI-AL Purpenerbal).

Rumours that I got long time ago, those 2 NAS332M being prepared for larger Frigates then Van Speijk. Van Speijk/Yani class is not large enough for NAS332M. It's speculated those two being prepared for Tromp class Frigates after they're retired from Dutch Navy. Other rumours talk for TNI-AL that time talking with other European source for 2 similar size Frigates.

As we know the East Timor and Economic Crisis in 90's and Soeharto's down fall practically stop those plan. So practically TNI-AL in process to reequipping them selves on ASuW and ASW capabilities that they're having in 80's.

If this going through, shown again the power of Airbus Lobby in using their influence on DI rotary wings projects.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

This's two days old information. Kris FB seems got it from TNI-AL Instagram. When I see this two days ago, don't want to put it here yet. Seems after some searching, There's other informal information that I heard shown MinDef did already submitted Project that already reach 'finance' people for more Maritime base Helicopters. For that I decide to put it here.

Seems they're looking for candidate to replace their NBO-105 which come from IPTN in the 80's. I presume why they're talking with Airbus on H145M. All this to enhance their fleet of Panthers (AS 565). Interesting on that H225M, as not many Navy that use them.

View attachment 48644


Question if they (TNI-AL) will use similar specs that Brazilian Helibras prepared for Brazilian Navy H225M (picture from Airbus Helicopter). This's large enough helicopter that unlike AS565 can not be use with existing Corvettes/Light Frigates. However with they are now building Larger Frigates on Iver/Type 31 based and if FREMM got on the way too, they at least going to need to give 8 Frigates with this class of Helicopter.

View attachment 48645

This is not first time TNI-AL air wing has medium-large helicopter. The record shown in 80's they got 4 NAS 332M with 2 already wired for ASuW (with Bendix radar), although no solid information that I got, shown whether their planned ASW kit already installed (Picture from TNI-AL Purpenerbal).

Rumours that I got long time ago, those 2 NAS332M being prepared for larger Frigates then Van Speijk. Van Speijk/Yani class is not large enough for NAS332M. It's speculated those two being prepared for Tromp class Frigates after they're retired from Dutch Navy. Other rumours talk for TNI-AL that time talking with other European source for 2 similar size Frigates.

As we know the East Timor and Economic Crisis in 90's and Soeharto's down fall practically stop those plan. So practically TNI-AL in process to reequipping them selves on ASuW and ASW capabilities that they're having in 80's.

If this going through, shown again the power of Airbus Lobby in using their influence on DI rotary wings projects.
Choosing the EC145 is quite logic, with having the EC120B and AS565 in the fleet. Same manufacturer, similar engines. If Disnerbal is looking for a replacement with the same passenger capacity, then maybe the AS555 is a cheaper alternative.

According to some sources, the navy also operates a small amount of PZL-made Mi-2. Is this true, and are those Mi-2s still active?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
According to some sources, the navy also operates a small amount of PZL-made Mi-2. Is this true, and are those Mi-2s still active?

This Mi-2 from begining already creating scandal. The initial project come in 2002, during which time Russian Sales Agents/Partners gain advantage on TNI Procurement due to combination of Western Embargoes, Rulling Administration Political stance, and better cost structure fitting available budget.

However this is the time of blooming sales agents taking advantage on opportunities in defense procurement that before monopolised by Soeharto cronies. The result free for all oportunities of 'side' games. You can say this the era from centralised corruption into free for all corruption.

So as the result of that kind of period, the assets being procured in that era is mostly sub par qualities, and it is not just in defense. Thus those Mi-2 already rooting away not much longer after arived. Afterall what can you expect from shaddy procurement. Even Antara article above shown that.

That 5 years period from 1999 to 2004 can be call dark time for Indonesian Politics, but also can be said neccesary adjustment period from Dictatorship toward more open politics. As the result, well you can't expect much on quality of procurement and development on that era. However bleak, it is neccesary time for Indonesian Political transition.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

This Mi-2 from begining already creating scandal. The initial project come in 2002, during which time Russian Sales Agents/Partners gain advantage on TNI Procurement due to combination of Western Embargoes, Rulling Administration Political stance, and better cost structure fitting available budget.

However this is the time of blooming sales agents taking advantage on opportunities in defense procurement that before monopolised by Soeharto cronies. The result free for all oportunities of 'side' games. You can say this the era from centralised corruption into free for all corruption.

So as the result of that kind of period, the assets being procured in that era is mostly sub par qualities, and it is not just in defense. Thus those Mi-2 already rooting away not much longer after arived. Afterall what can you expect from shaddy procurement. Even Antara article above shown that.

That 5 years period from 1999 to 2004 can be call dark time for Indonesian Politics, but also can be said neccesary adjustment period from Dictatorship toward more open politics. As the result, well you can't expect much on quality of procurement and development on that era. However bleak, it is neccesary time for Indonesian Political transition.
Thank you for the link and information.


This is...speed!
Built by PT Palindo, the specifications for the High Speed Craft are 14,30 meters long, 3,3 meters wide, aluminum hull material, 3 x 425 HP engine, speeds of up to 65 knots or about 120,38 km per hour and accommodation for six people.

http://instagr.am/p/CV6_wd_jWtI/
According to the Rajawalitimes, its the fastest patrolboat of Indonesia, but North Sea Boats of Banyuwangi (PT Lundin) construct patrolboats with a maximum speed of 70 kts.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

Video from PT. PAL, sorry in Indonesian. This's part of their public expose, thus not really deep. The video with their new COO, and talk on Projects within their War Ships division. In summary:

1. They basically defend the public scrutiny on KCR (Missile Fast Boat) 60m that have max speed of 28 knots. Basically they defend the choice as part of compromise between specs and construction design which MinDef and TNI-AL ask.

2. Aside of new Frigates Project, the COO saying also the new Submarine Project also still in the pipeline.

3. They're doing full Integration Projects with overseas Partner including all weapons and electronics/sensors integration.

4. The Frigates Project will begin in early 2022 as this moment they're finalising design with the partner to include all the adjustment that Indonesian MinDef and Navy specs demand.

It's not surprising on early 2022 time table as the yard that usually being used for Naval Ships, now still used by The Hospital Ships (using Makasar based LPD design). What this video can confirm is that the Iver/Babcock based Frigates design will have adjustment from present Babcock Type 31 being build for RN.

With early 2022 time table, then I presume the first frigate will be launch at fastest by 2024 and operational by 2025 (if everything run on schedule). This using the time table they're doing with Sigma PKR 105 Light Frigates before.

PAL now talking to public on their Industry 4.0 transformation, that promise capabilities to provide faster and higher productivity. That'll remain to be seen.

For me, this shown why stop gap/Interim second hand Frigates still needed by TNI-AL to cover their old rundown Van Speijk. If FREMM program with Fincantieri run on schedule (which Pindad being speculate will be involved in building some of the FREMM after 2025), two Maestrale will be use as Interim Frigates. Question whether MinDef also looking for another two second hand Interim Frigates will still open to speculations.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

This article from Jane's for me related to the PT. PAL video before. This shown PAL under pressure to finish the second hospital ships, in order to clear their main docks and facilities for another project. If related to the schedule, then it's can be seen confirmation thar they're also in pressure to get moving into Frigates project.

However it's also shown their plan on so call Industrial 4.0 for improvement on productivity, still facing big challenge. This late reprimanded from TNI-AL as customer, can potentially raise question on their efforts on improving Productivity. It's important as they're aiming to get as much as possible on Frigates Project done by them.

Shown why in some quarters of Government Bureaucracy, there's still doubt on whether the SOE Defense Industry can raise to the challenge on Defense Investment as Political goals set by this administration.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

This article from Jane's for me related to the PT. PAL video before. This shown PAL under pressure to finish the second hospital ships, in order to clear their main docks and facilities for another project. If related to the schedule, then it's can be seen confirmation thar they're also in pressure to get moving into Frigates project.

However it's also shown their plan on so call Industrial 4.0 for improvement on productivity, still facing big challenge. This late reprimanded from TNI-AL as customer, can potentially raise question on their efforts on improving Productivity. It's important as they're aiming to get as much as possible on Frigates Project done by them.

Shown why in some quarters of Government Bureaucracy, there's still doubt on whether the SOE Defense Industry can raise to the challenge on Defense Investment as Political goals set by this administration.
|"However, as of 31 October 2021, the vessel's build progress is 3.741% behind schedule."|
Just 3,7%.....i expected actually a more severe delay.

|" A copy of the letter that was forwarded to Janes indicates that the vessel, "|

I dont know if the betrayer is from TNI-AL or PAL, but its quite worrying that such sensitive documents/letters are just directly given to (foreign) press.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
dont know if the betrayer is from TNI-AL or PAL, but its quite worrying that such sensitive documents/letters are just directly given to (foreign) press.
If we go with the practices of Global Shipyard industry, a reprimand letter from customers actually is common practice and quite open. It's part of contract, shown customers want to be compensated on the delay.

Anyway;

PAL shown their announcement for 4.0 Industrial transformation. The delay on delivery of the second hospital ships has to be put into consideration for PAL management on their challenge full fill their aim on Industrial 4.0 transformation.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

From Kris FB. Bit late, but they (TNI-AL) begin to train more on proficient on data transfer with Link Y. It's all part of TNI network centric nascent development.

Both Kaisepo and Hasanudin are part of Sigma 9113 Corvettes and Alugoro is DSME 1400 Subs. They're already doing surface to surface and even surface to air assets data link. This's at least part of official shown on Surface to underwater assets data link exercise.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Just nice video on Rheinmettal Oerlikon 20mm Naval gun. Well just my hope this kind of gun will become more standardize for TNI-AL or even Bakamla secondary gun on OPV. Well at least that's seems the information so far on future OPV.

Who knows on real implementation.
 
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