Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[John Newman]

Be nice. You wouldn't have any A-4s for your museum if we hadn't gifted some back to you. Do they still have the Project Kahu Mods of the F-16 type cockpit?

Actually you Kiwis gifted one back, the dual seat.

The FAA Museum has two A-4s on display, one started life as an RAN TA-4G, updated to A-4K, in the museum it’s painted up and displayed as it was originally, looks like an TA-4G.

ADF-Serials Image Gallery :: Skyhawk N13-154911 (880)

www.adf-gallery.com.au

The single seat is actually an ex USN A-4B, painted up and displayed as an RAN A-4G.

ADF-Serials Image Gallery :: ex-USN A-4B Bu No. 142874

www.adf-gallery.com.au

Hopefully one day the FAA museum can get back one of the proper single seat A-4Gs when Draken eventually retires the fleet.

Cheers,

 

[Ananda]

wanted to ask about Disnerbal's strike capabilities with the NAS-332L Super Puma and the AM-39 Exocet

Well that picture remind me of TSM magazine in 80's and 90's. That one NAS-332 is basically IPTN under license prototype from Maritime AS-332 that Aerospatiale developed as AM-39 platform.

From what I heard, this project being prepared for Larger Frigates program in 90's that TNI-AL plan. Super Puma ASW/AsuW is too big for efficient operation from Van Speijk as the largest Frigate in their inventory. For that TNI-AL more inclined toward Lynx ASW. Even until now TNI-AL doesn't have Frigates to operate Medium Class helicopter.

With Asian Economics crisis and Soeharto down fall, TNI-AL larger Frigates program being suspended. Even until now the Iver based program as TNI-AL full size Frigate program still has not clear on how it will progress, as you also have known.

As for Panthers ASW, according to DI, the ASW version is already equipped for Light ASW torpedo. However I haven't seen any official photo showing that.

 

[swerve]

No problem @swerve this's interesting airplanes for me too. There's one of them in Jakarta Military museum, and I was admire that plane the first time I see it long time ago when I went to the museum during my elementary school day tour.

It's fat bombers, but somehow it's also very interesting with it's double propeller
TNI-AL got 18 ex RN that being upgrade to AS-4 version. The upgrade from what I gather also change the wing from folded to regular wing for land based operation. Eventough it's capable for Anti Submarine (at least for the 50's-60's standard), however seems TNI-AL mostly used them as Anti Surface patrol.

TNI-AL Gannett inventory days began unfold during Konfrontasi era with Malaysia (well it's mean basically with UK force). That's when it begin being replaced by IL-28 Torpedo bomber version, within TNI-AL air wing inventory. After Soekarno fall, Soeharto seems doesn't have intentions to revive the Gannett (or more precise TNI-AL fixed wing capabilities yet). Thus it begin to enter Museum or become fixed display in TNI-AL bases.

The contra-rotating props were driven by two linked engines through a shared gearbox, & it could cruise on one engine driving one propellor.

I like the Gannet.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Well that picture remind me of TSM magazine in 80's and 90's. That one NAS-332 is basically IPTN under license prototype from Maritime AS-332 that Aerospatiale developed as AM-39 platform.

From what I heard, this project being prepared for Larger Frigates program in 90's that TNI-AL plan. Super Puma ASW/AsuW is too big for efficient operation from Van Speijk as the largest Frigate in their inventory. For that TNI-AL more inclined toward Lynx ASW. Even until now TNI-AL doesn't have Frigates to operate Medium Class helicopter.

With Asian Economics crisis and Soeharto down fall, TNI-AL larger Frigates program being suspended. Even until now the Iver based program as TNI-AL full size Frigate program still has not clear on how it will progress, as you also have known.

As for Panthers ASW, according to DI, the ASW version is already equipped for Light ASW torpedo. However I haven't seen any official photo showing that.

Yes, its actually weird that the navy only ordered 4 NAS332L helicopters, and they did not ordered more even after having a fleet of multiple LPDs. The two remaining Super Pumas are maybe even taken out of service, i havent seen them for the last 5 years.

On airshows abroad IPTN often put an AM39 Exocet dummy besides the CN235-220MPA, but the aircraft in Indonesian service does not have hardpoints, and maybe not even the wiring to be armed with the AM39.

The photo is taken from Insiden Karang Unarang, bukti kesigapan penerbang TNI AL.
And for the Gannet-lovers here, there is even a photo of it on this website!

 

[Ananda]

On airshows abroad IPTN often put an AM39 Exocet dummy besides the CN235-220MPA, but the aircraft in Indonesian service does not have hardpoints, and maybe not even the wiring to be armed with the AM39.

It's a proof of concept. They want to sell the idea on CN-235 MPA capabilities for both ASW and ASuW. The Turks is the one that practically wired their CN235 MPA for Anti Submarine, however from what I gather they're not wired them for Anti Surface. Even tough the Turkish forumers convince it's capable for Anti Surface.

As for NAS-332, they're seems so far shown inclination for Bell-412 as it can work not only from LPD but also from Frigates and Corvettes. Same idea why they aim for either Lynx and now Panthers for ASW. Most of TNI-AL surface ships can not handle optimally NAS-332. In that sense, I agree on the thinking. You can't think assets that only work from one type of your vessels (in this case the LPD), it's better class like 412 as it can work from LPD but also LST, Frigates and Corvettes.

On the other hand, there're talk from some Navy Brass for SH-60 or KA-27 class. Off course it's only talk. Still raise question on why for Medium Class helicopter, only TNI-AU seems that support NAS332 or H225? Seems it all back to each branch still have their own preference. Which will create challenge on simplification of assets Type throughout TNI.

Just add this picture from Air Recognition site. Just to shown structurally CN235 MPA already capable to take ASW Torpedo, and theoretically should also able handle ASM either Harpoon or AM-39 class. That's why Turkish forumers adamant that Turkish Navy CN-235 MPA able to handle both ASW and ASuW. Eventough I haven't seen any pictures that shown them handling ASM.

 

[Ananda]

Submarinos brasileiros para a Indonésia - Poder Naval - Navios de Guerra, Marinhas de Guerra, Aviação Naval, Indústria Naval e Estratégia Marítima

A Marinha da Indonésia se encontra em um estágio avançado de negociações com a Marinha do Brasil, para ficar com dois dos quatro submarinos IKL-209 pertencentes à Força de Submarinos (ForSub), que estão sendo disponibilizados para o mercado internacional, em função da ampla renovação da flotilha...

www.naval.com.br

This article create discussion with Local Blogs and Indonesian Forum. This's just like the rumours and speculation of second hand Frigates. The same time there's information from MinDef of new program for Frigate and Submarine, then there's those talk on second hand Frigates and Submarine. This talk even goes to second hand Fighters.

The question whether those second hand program are for stop gap or additional platform as new procurement will not be enough, is all depends on the condition of those second hand assets, the acquisition costs and more importantly the modification costs to make them operational at least for another decade or two.

Considering the gap on Indonesian defense capabilities due to large portion of obsolescence assets that hasn't been replaced, the costs to replace and new capabilities with all new assets will perhaps not be enough budget to cover.

If those second hand assets come in the form of similar assets that already in the inventory like Type 209 or F-16, then as long as the modification being done properly it still give them enough usefulness.

Cynics on me think, second hand assets but modified properly still better then no additional assets at all. Still with what the actual program of current MinDef open to speculation, then the drama still on.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I become tired from all these 'newsreports' , rumours and speculations.
We are 'lucky' if this amazing administration decides to buy before the end of 2024 second hand Type 33 subs from china, the two 3rd hands Balao-class subs from Taiwan or those advanced stealthy Cannon-class destroyer escort left overs from Thailand and the Philippines.

Now something else.

https://www.tnial.mil.id/berita/19390/TNI-AL-DAN-KAPAL-PERANCIS-PASSING-EXERCISE-DI-SELAT-SUNDA/

Some more photos.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358709472101736450

 

[Ahmad]

Just stop talking about fanboys and OEM buzzers rumors here, wasting time, better we see what will really happen after the contract is really signed.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

A recent post from PAL.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1586551221515358&id=638220153015141

- So according to PAL ASW means "Anti Surface Warfare".
- Endurance is 5 days.
- Later in the image the endurence is 9 days.
- Telling that the main gun will be a 27 mm one (Mauser?)
- In the image (where we see an old 40 mm) they insert a photo of a Bofors 57 mm Mk3.

Quite worrying if a shipyard makes so many mistakes in promotion material.


Some news from a shipyard in Germany.
Abeking & Rasmussen has ordered propulsion systems from MAN for the two new minehunters for the Indonesian Navy. We also can see here how the new minehunters will look like.

Abeking & Rasmussen Order Complete MAN 175D Hybrid-Propulsion Packages for Indonesian Navy Minehunters

Naval order for versatile MAN 175D engine

www.man-es.com

Edit: now also on Janes.

New MCMVs for Indonesian Navy to be equipped with MAN 12V175D-MM engines

German company MAN Energy Solutions announced on 10 February that it has secured a contract from shipbuilder Abeking & Rasmussen to equip the two mine-countermeasures...

www.janes.com

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

It is remarkable that they spend time and money on the development for yet another UAV. There are already so many other UAVs developed in Indonesia and soon the navy will receive a couple of Insytu Scan Eagles.

Ketika Tim Khusus Puspenerbal Juanda Membuat Pesawat tanpa Awak - Jawa Pos

Ketika Tim Khusus Puspenerbal Juanda Membuat Pesawat tanpa Awak

www.jawapos.com

 

[Ananda]

remarkable that they spend time and money on the development for yet another UAV. There are already so many other UAVs developed in Indonesia and soon the navy will receive a couple of Insytu Scan Eagles.

Well what can you expect with "Project" mentality still strong within services and MinDef. The moment Jokowi's shown support for UAV, everyone wants to build UAV. As usual all without proper coordination, and they just ask RnD budget for any UAV projects.

This is problem why each services build or work with either local coach builders or foreign ones for "special" armoured vehicle prototype (as example), thus each services or research institute also try to come out with their own prototype project for UAV. The Army has ones, the AF also, now Navy, LIPI has it while DI and LAPAN also. It can be good if they have clear coordination on projects purpose. However so far I still see having "projects" more important than coordination.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

https://www.facebook.com/181276675314017/posts/3401671493274503

Hingga 2024, TNI AU Incar Rafale, F-15, dan Hercules C-130J |Republika Online

Perwakilan Dassault Aviation sudah bertemu Dirjen Pothan Kemenhan di Jakarta.

m.republika.co.id

Remarkable, i thought that the Scorpènes are equipped with the Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome (MESMA) system and that DCNS planned to develop a second-generation hydrogen fuel cell AIP modules for future Scorpène models.

Anyway, if the new Scorpènes really will get Litium-Ion batteries, then it means that the AIP-propulsionsystem will be as advanced as the Taigei class (29SS) and the eleventh and twelfth submarines of the Sōryū class.

But....also the Scorpènes are just on the wishinglist, nothing more.

 

[tonnyc]

That comment about buying Scorpenes and using lithium battery doesn't impress me.

The Nagapasa-class submarines we bought from South Korea was supposed to use lithium batteries. The lithium batteries were supposed to be provided by Nipress. Nipress opened Indonesia's first lithium battery factory. But despite TNI's promise, the contract for lithium battery never materialized. TNI downgraded the batteries to the cheaper lead-acid batteries instead. Nipress today is in financial trouble.

I am not saying that Nipress's trouble is because of TNI's broken promise. They have their own mismanagement issues, I'm sure. But I am saying that TNI is bullshitting if they say they want to buy Scorpene because of the lithium battery. Bullshit. TNI has many chances to get lithium batteries for their submarines. They can get them right now. German, South Korean, Japanese, and other suppliers will jump at such a contract. TNI has always passed on them, likely because they don't actually want to spend the money. But if they don't want to spend the money on lithium battery then why will the Scorpene be an exception? When it's time to sign on the dotted line they'll just end up crossing out the lithium battery and getting conventional lead-acid battery again. The Scorpene isn't a magical submarine that grows its own lithium batteries for free. The lithium batteries will have to be paid for and it ain't going to be magically cheaper than South Korean ones.

Rather than wasting money on what would turn out to be a downgraded Scorpene no better than the Nagapasa-class, how about using the money to bring the current equipment to modern standard. Install the lithium battery and AIP on Nagapasa-class. Upgrade the Cakra-class with lithium battery. Quit wasting time and money on yet another new class.

 

[Ananda]

The lithium batteries were supposed to be provided by Nipress. Nipress opened Indonesia's first lithium battery factory. But despite TNI's promise, the contract for lithium battery never materialized.

Changing/conversion from Lead Acid to Lithium is doable. I saw some talk in internet forums on changing the basic design, well as the article I put below shown, it's not the design of the vessels need to be change. However it will need a lot off work done on changing electrical sub system.

Lead Acid to Lithium-ion Battery Conversion | LithiumBalance

Trend Analysis: Lead Acid to Lithium-ion Battery Conversion Advantages of replacing lead acid batteries with lithium-ion batteries, and how to apply these in electric vehicles for material handling Li-ion battery developments Due to the significant development in Lithium Technology over the last...

lithiumbalance.com

Granted this article talk on land vehicle, but the principe will be the same. Thus eventough there's Lithium Ion producer locally, and with the drive for more electrical battery producers locally, it also will follow Administration drive.
However whose going to be the vendor that PAL will be partner to do the job ? I think besides the budget, it is also going to be the question.

The reliability of local Nipress li-on battery also need to be evaluated for submarine usage. If they (MinDef) already want to go to Li-on path, then the capabilities to install and design electric sub system for li-on will need to be master by PAL too. Thus if they can do that, yes it's probable to convert existing battery of Tjakra and Nagapasa class to Li-on environment.

If they choose Naval Group for next batch of submarine within PAL facilities, then PAL need to master installation of Li-on facilities. At such they need to master it for refurbishing job on li-on toward Nagapasa. It also means that PAL need to master overall electrical system works on conversion adjustment. Again they need Partner that willing to transferred that knowledge.

 

[Ananda]

https://www.facebook.com/313075602222676/posts/1525066167690274

FB page from PT. LEN (Indonesian SOE for Electronics), shown the Naval onshore Gunnery Range operating with CMS source from them. Currently the range only have 76mm gun, but according to their website the Navy plan to equip the range with all their Guns like 57mm and 40mm.

It's interesting if the Navy will going to use LEN CMS on their new vessels. At this moment they're only so far being used in Van Speijk Frigates, that close to end of their operating live span.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

https://www.facebook.com/313075602222676/posts/1525066167690274

FB page from PT. LEN (Indonesian SOE for Electronics), shown the Naval onshore Gunnery Range operating with CMS source from them. Currently the range only have 76mm gun, but according to their website the Navy plan to equip the range with all their Guns like 57mm and 40mm.

It's interesting if the Navy will going to use LEN CMS on their new vessels. At this moment they're only so far being used in Van Speijk Frigates, that close to end of their operating live span.

Thank you for sharing.
If im not wrong the KRI Slamet Riyadi 352 was retired/taken out of service a couple of years ago. Probably its Oto Melara gun is used for this training facility.


I just saw this...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362207753159122946

This cooperation and exchange of information is a great improvement. It is only weird that this cooperation just started in 2019, which is in many countries a standard practice.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

It is a little bit confusing, but from which i understand, this ship is part of the second batch of the Pari-class. Some sources call it PC-40 Class, others PC-43 Class.

Kamis, 28 Jan 2021 11:49 WIB Kupang - Lantamal VII Kupang mendapat tambahan satu unit KRI Escolar 871. Kapal perang karya anak bangsa itu akan membantu pengamanan di wilayah perairan NTT.

With a length of 44 meters and armed with an Oto Melara Marlin 30 mm maingun, these patrol boats are good enough to patrol and protect the waters of NTT.
Photos taken from https://news.detik.com/foto-news/d-5351723/kri-escolar-perkuat-lantamal-vii-kupang/2

 

[Ananda]

is a little bit confusing, but from which i understand, this ship is part of the second batch of the Pari-class. Some sources call it PC-40 Class, others PC-43 Class.

When the first Pari class emerge, they call it PC-40 as they use similar based with KCR-40. This type of boats is more suitable as PC then KCR (Fast Missile Boat). I suspect now TNI-AL wants to standardize their missile boats on 60+ meter dimensions. Those 40+ meter boats is more suitable as patrol boats then missile boats.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Bakamla just posted this.
Here we can clearly see how complicated the situation on our seas is.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1364864863269363713

 

[Ananda]

Here we can clearly see how complicated the situation on our seas is.

It's complicated cause why simplified if can be made complicated (101 in Indonesian Bureaucracy).

Anyway:

From Instagram of head MinDef Directorate Defense Potential (Ditjen Pothan). This seems taken in Abu Dhabi Defense exhibition. Now can anyone guess what Frigates the model represent?

This can explain why the process of new Frigates get complicated, eventough in paper the early choice of Iver Based ones already committed last year.