Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[deadlast]

I can't help wondering how many VL Mica she'll get

If it based on her previous Sea Wolf VLS cells, then 16 VL MICA is probably appropriate number (rumor has it at 16 too), unless they decides to cheap out and only fit 12 cell VL MICA as found in the Martadinata-class.

whether Indonesia will move to VL Mica NG.

I believe they eventually will, but the navy are known to be a tad slow in upgrading their ship weapon system, best chance they have is during ship mid-life upgrade or if MBDA decide to stop producing the original VL MICA and start focusing on the NG version. Case in point, Diponegoro-class received Exocet MM40 block III upgrade after 12 years on service and also the rest of Clurit-class FAC (bar the KRI Clurit & KRI Kujang) still didn't receive their primary weapon (SSM) even after 9 years on service.

I presume the other two ships of the class will get the same upgrade.

They do, but seeing how the first ship took two years to start (the program was announced in 2020) and there is still no announcement for the other two ship, I expect they could announce it as early as 2024 or maybe even latter (2024 is presidential election year here, and the current MoD are scheduled to participate, again).

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

|"Indonesia isn't going to be operator of Pohang class corvette. Minister of Finance has denied the request for foreign loan for that used vessel. So that Pohang not listed in the 2022 PSP. We shall see whether Pohang will list in 2023 or 2024 iteration of the Green Book or not."|
I don't know if what he said is true, but it's obvious that our big friend is happy about it, and personally i also hope that we will not get a worn out 30-years old corvette.
Its better to use the limited budget to upgrade our current vessels, order more Exocets or MICAs, construct decent indigenous made OPVs, or use it to pay for the Iver Huitfeldts.

 

[Ananda]

better to use the limited budget to upgrade our current vessels, order more Exocets or MICAs, construct decent indigenous made OPVs, or use it to pay for the Iver Huitfeldts.

Hopefully as I mentioned before 'sanity' check from finance guys can work out for the better filtering in future. Still this is Indonesia, it does not means the 'factions' behind this will not try again on next budget cycles. Remember ellection times is getting closer. Some factions need projects.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Well...thanks God...its now officially rejected.
|"The Indonesian Ministry of Finance (MoF) has declined a proposal for the country to fund a possible purchase of an ex-Republic of Korea Navy (RoKN) Pohang-class corvette with foreign loans in 2022."|

Indonesia rejects proposal to procure ex-South Korean corvette

The Indonesian Ministry of Finance (MoF) has declined a proposal for the country to fund a possible purchase of an ex-Republic of Korea Navy (RoKN) Pohang-class corvette...

www.janes.com

@Ananda i think your friend wishes (how surprisingly) that the Iver Huitfeldt/Arrowhead 140 contract will be cancelled and that the government will go for the FREMMs.
|"Thus, it's logic for Minister of Finance to denied budget request for financing Arrowhead 140's FFBNW in the 2022 PSP."|
Normally he always complains about the finance people. :-D

 

[Ananda]

think your friend wishes (how surprisingly) that the Iver Huitfeldt/Arrowhead 140 contract will be cancelled and that the government will go for the FREMMs.

That's why I say he's salesman after all. Anything to further pursue his commission. His tweets sometimes give reliable hints, the rest just garbage speculations. Arrowhead 140 project for one thing already sign contract a year ago, and also budget already allocate from previous cycles.

He's just worries that his FREMM project got push behind as other projects got more priorities. Like I said, something must give, as no enough budget allocation for this term for all projects.

Anyway TNI-AL new MCMV photo in Abeking- Rasmussen berth. It's nicer then previous generation Tripartite MCMV in current inventory.



From #martin_tolle Instagram.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

That's why I say he's salesman after all. Anything to further pursue his commission. His tweets sometimes give reliable hints, the rest just garbage speculations. Arrowhead 140 project for one thing already sign contract a year ago, and also budget already allocate from previous cycles.

He's just worries that his FREMM project got push behind as other projects got more priorities. Like I said, something must give, as no enough budget allocation for this term for all projects.

Anyway TNI-AL new MCMV photo in Abeking- Rasmussen berth. It's nicer then previous generation Tripartite MCMV in current inventory.

View attachment 49768

From #martin_tolle Instagram.

Thank you for sharing this photo, before this one only two photos of parts of the hull were released, but this one gives us a good view on the whole ship.
This is indeed an enlarged and modernised version of the Frankenthal Class, and not like the super stealthy and futuristic design on Abeking.com

I wonder when more details like armament, sensors and mission equipment package will be released. For the maingun an Oto Melara Marlin 30 mm will be a logic choice. Hopefully not a Mauser BK 27 or another new caliber.

 

[Ananda]

Put it here, as this's the 'dream' of many Indonesian military enthusiast. Dream that's not clear yet how the money trails on financing it. Now being 'rumours' will get the answer on next week Indo Defense.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Put it here, as this's the 'dream' of many Indonesian military enthusiast. Dream that's not clear yet how the money trails on financing it. Now being 'rumours' will get the answer on next week Indo Defense.

Lets wait and see what will happen. With a limited budget its maybe better to focus on the Iver Huitfeldts first.

No new updates about the OPV 90 from Daya Radar Utama.

About the KCR-60...your friend is telling this:
|"The construction of three KCR 60 awarded to two different private shipyards. The seventh KCR 60 will adopted waterjet propulsion. The eighth and ninth KCR 60 will use medium speed engine."|
This can be true, because here

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585253126654767104

they are telling that Terma will supply again some of their products for another Nakhoda Ragam vessel and two new KCR-60 patrol boats.

 

[Ananda]

Terma expands C-Guard footprint with new contracts for Indonesian Navy vessels

Terma has secured new contracts in Indonesia and will provide C-Guard Decoy Launching Systems to the Indonesian Navy for one Multi-Role Light Frigate (MRLF) and two additional KCR-60 Fast Attack Crafts. The latter follows the 2019 contract for the delivery of a complete C-Series Combat Suite...

www.terma.com

Those two KCR 60 that are going to be equiped with this Terma C-Guard seems the current 5th and 6th boats. As Terma talk on equiping them by next year. So it seems means it is part of FFBNW arrangement with PAL. As for the Frigates it is more likely be KRI Usman-Harun that currently in PAL facilities for MLU.

With a limited budget its maybe better to focus on the Iver Huitfeldts first.

Tweeter guy talk nonsense in his channel when he indicate Arrowhead 140 budget being rejected by MoF this year. The budget to construct 2 Arrowhead 140 with FFBNW scheme already using USD 750 budget from previous circles.

What has not been approved for this year is budget for armaments that amounted around USD 450 mio. Not surprising in there as the construction for those two arrowhead has not been proceed yet. So why MoF going to agree on allocating the budget for armament this year around?

That's why tweeter guy talk is combination of 'few' part substantial rumours and 'big' part of trash speculations.

 

[Ananda]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1587717997787238401

Local enthusiats tweet call #tweetmiliter put this short video on what supposedly PAL iteration of Babcock Arrowhead 140. I'm quite shock with the design as it is quite alteration from Arrowhead design. Especialy as they are lengthening the bow quite much. I'm just wondering if this is the design that Babcock already agree on.

There're rumours that the reason why first steel cut still not commencing as Babcock has not agree with the PAL alteration. This PAL model is 143m+ thus 5 meter longer then type 31. Rumours call Babcock only agree to lengthen the design by less then 2 meter toward 140m.

I do hope they are listening to Babcock, afterall that's what the license agreement are. If somehow Babcock already agree on this design, then it means Babcock going to ask some more adjustment in the overall specs. It is practically like doing new design.

The video shown the conversation that seems shown doubt about the design. As this is demanded on someone high which can be change, if there are political changes. Shown how Indonesian defense items planning really drive by politics not real technical defense calculations.

The model shown what supposedly VL MICA type VLS in Bow, and Sylver type VLS in the middle. Seems the insistance to put as much as possible VL MICA type VLS in the Bow section that drive this 5 m lengthening.

I do hope Babcock can put senses on this.

 

[Ananda]

PT PAL Indonesia Pimpin Galangan Kapal Nasional dalam Proyek Refurbishment Kapal Perang

(Jakarta, 02 November 2022) Indonesia sebagai negara maritim dengan kekuatan pertahanan laut yang cukup besar, erat kaitannya dengan program refurbishment terhadap armada kapal perang, guna […]

www.pal.co.id

Yesterday signing series in Indo Defence also done by PAL and consortium of Local Shipyards on MRO jobs for 41 TNI-AL Naval vessels. The lists include on the relative new ones, but also the old ones from 70's and 80's. Thus the MRO aim to keep some close to half century old hulls to keep working. In this talking toward ex East German Parchim.

Thus despite all the drive for new vessels constructions, seems realisation also of quantities do matter. Parchim is old, so does those PAL builds German design FPB-57. However they are numerous and do make large portion of TNI-AL surface combatant. Thus they are seems being decided to kept to boosts quantities of patrol forces on top of new constructions.

Indonesia rejects offer to buy ex-South Korean corvette - Industry-update.com

October 18, 2022 author Ridzvan Rahmat A former South Korean “Pohan” class corvette, now in service with the Navy of the People’s Army of Vietnam. Indonesia planned to purchase a similar vessel with foreign loans. (Michael Nitz/Navy Press Office) Indonesia’s Ministry of Finance (MOF) has...

industry-update.com

Perhaps this move relate to this. Rather then augment the fleet with second hand 'interim' fleets, why don't just refurbished existing old ones. This way also provide jobs for local shipyards.

 

[Ananda]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1587818694935281665

Naval Group twitter talk on their tractions with PAL on Submarine program. Why I still reserve expectations on how many of those signed agreement on yesterday will goes to effective contractual program. This one I do suspect going to have enough tractions forward.

My main prediction is more related to this program battery development co-op project. Present Indonesian administrations aim much development on onshore battery and energy storage tech development. Thus any investor that willing to work on that, will got advantage support.

Add:
There're quite a numbers signing yesterday, and I suspect today or even tommorow still can come out. However personally I only going to put in here those agreement that I suspect will get tractions forward. Either allready got enough money trails or like this one, got potential enough political momentum.

I can be wrong tough on sorting out which agreement that being consider already having momentum forward.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1587717997787238401

Local enthusiats tweet call #tweetmiliter put this short video on what supposedly PAL iteration of Babcock Arrowhead 140. I'm quite shock with the design as it is quite alteration from Arrowhead design. Especialy as they are lengthening the bow quite much. I'm just wondering if this is the design that Babcock already agree on.

There're rumours that the reason why first steel cut still not commencing as Babcock has not agree with the PAL alteration. This PAL model is 143m+ thus 5 meter longer then type 31. Rumours call Babcock only agree to lengthen the design by less then 2 meter toward 140m.

I do hope they are listening to Babcock, afterall that's what the license agreement are. If somehow Babcock already agree on this design, then it means Babcock going to ask some more adjustment in the overall specs. It is practically like doing new design.

The video shown the conversation that seems shown doubt about the design. As this is demanded on someone high which can be change, if there are political changes. Shown how Indonesian defense items planning really drive by politics not real technical defense calculations.

The model shown what supposedly VL MICA type VLS in Bow, and Sylver type VLS in the middle. Seems the insistance to put as much as possible VL MICA type VLS in the Bow section that drive this 5 m lengthening.

I do hope Babcock can put senses on this.

2 × Oto Melara 76 mm guns, 56 VLS tubes in the front and 16 VLS cells in the center of the superstructure. Thats more than the Iver Huitfeldts, FREMMs or even the Horizon Class of destroyers, and because of that very unrealistic.
Like you said it looks like it is designed by politicians and not by professional naval engineers of PAL. Also the searchradar on the back looks amateur. And looking to the scale of the helicopter, this ship should have a width of 32 m, at least.

 

[Ananda]

Like you said it looks like it is designed by politicians and not by professional naval engineers of PAL. Also the searchradar on the back looks amateur.

I haven't gone to Indo Defence, however one of my close colleague from SOE Bank already there yesterday (he also invited me again tomorrow as they have extra invitation which being offer to other Financial people from non SOE institution to come, but I don't think I have time to go there). He give impression that clearly some of projects reek of political smell. There are projects that genuine come from users need, other already 'poluted' on political images agenda. Just add work on choosing which projects that have potential moving forward (thus viable to be financing).

This Frigates program is part of genuine TNI-AL (user) strategic need. However I can see there's non users agenda try to hijacked it. Babcock co-op is genuine choices, however this insistence on getting 143+m specs is smell of another party insistence 'agenda'. Babcock also has present there. Rumours say their original 140m design being hold off from display, as it is going to conflict with PAL display. I don't know if today or tomorrow they will show it, perhaps not. If they are showing it, some photos already circulated on internet.

PAL usually provide relatively good realistic model on their display. However the model of this Arrow 140 deviation design come out, in my opinion clearly shown it is being prepared in hurry. Thus shown amateur finish.

 

[Ananda]

This taken from TNI-AL official video. The video actually shown commissioning of LPD based Hospital Ship from PAL. However after ceremony there's demo of this KCR 60 (FMB 60) build by one of Indonesian Private Yard Tesco Indo Maritime.

This's already got certain sensation toward local defense enthusiast as:
1. Shown better look and seems more sturdy construction from original KCR 60 from PAL.
2. It's also can have better speed from 28knts on PAL version toward 40+knts on this Tesco version.

Well it is good to Industry as this shown some Private yards can do provide seemingly better products then SOE yards like PAL. Something that some colleagues of mine who specializes in marine financing already knows.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Leonardo provides latest-generation Marlin 40 naval defence system to Indonesia - Naval News

Leonardo's Marlin 40 gun will equip the Indonesian Navy’s PC60 fast patrol boats and Tank Landing Ship vessels.

www.navalnews.com

Marlin 40mm to Indonesia

 

[tonnyc]

2. It's also can have better speed from 28knts on PAL version toward 40+knts on this Tesco version.

Tesco's KCR-60 has two waterjets and their brochure says 35 knot top speed. The Tesco guy I talked to boasted of a 36 knot speed during a test using just the waterjets.

PT PAL guy says PT PAL is also moving toward a faster version of the KCR-60. In my opinion the issue isn't so much design, but rather funding. I remember being told specifically by a PT PAL representative during a past Indo Defense expo that the 28 knot top speed was a cost reduction measure requested by the Navy. Both back then and now, the Navy gets exactly what they paid for.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

View attachment 49844View attachment 49845View attachment 49846

This taken from TNI-AL official video. The video actually shown commissioning of LPD based Hospital Ship from PAL. However after ceremony there's demo of this KCR 60 (FMB 60) build by one of Indonesian Private Yard Tesco Indo Maritime.

This's already got certain sensation toward local defense enthusiast as:
1. Shown better look and seems more sturdy construction from original KCR 60 from PAL.
2. It's also can have better speed from 28knts on PAL version toward 40+knts on this Tesco version.

Well it is good to Industry as this shown some Private yards can do provide seemingly better products then SOE yards like PAL. Something that some colleagues of mine who specializes in marine financing already knows.

This is good news. A patrolboat with a maximum speed of only 28 kts shouldn't be called KCR...

Leonardo provides latest-generation Marlin 40 naval defence system to Indonesia - Naval News

Leonardo's Marlin 40 gun will equip the Indonesian Navy’s PC60 fast patrol boats and Tank Landing Ship vessels.

www.navalnews.com

Marlin 40mm to Indonesia

Also this is good news, that the old recycled Bofors 40 mm gun on the Teluk Bintuni LSTs are to be replaced by the newest and most advanced version of the Oto Melara Marlin 40 mm gun, and that also the new PC-60 patrolboats are to be equipped with a decent and modern main gun.

The PC-60 Dorang Class, is that just a KCR-60 from PAL without missiles or a completely new design?
It seems that for the KCR-60 patrolboats they want to stay with the Bofors 57 mm Mk 3.

|"The Navy’s inventory includes Leonardo’s Marlin 30, Marlin 40 Twin Barrel and 76/62 SuperRapid."|
I can't remember that any of TNI-AL's ships has the Oto Melara twin 40 mm gun installed, as far i can remember the 40 mm guns were always the Bofors ones.

Tesco's KCR-60 has two waterjets and their brochure says 35 knot top speed. The Tesco guy I talked to boasted of a 36 knot speed during a test using just the waterjets.

PT PAL guy says PT PAL is also moving toward a faster version of the KCR-60. In my opinion the issue isn't so much design, but rather funding. I remember being told specifically by a PT PAL representative during a past Indo Defense expo that the 28 knot top speed was a cost reduction measure requested by the Navy. Both back then and now, the Navy gets exactly what they paid for.

Do you know if number 7, 8 and 9 of the KCR-60 will be equipped with waterjets?

 

[Ananda]

Siap Kuasai Teknologi Kunci, PT PAL Indonesia Hadirkan Kapal Selam Autonomous pada Indodefence 2022

(Jakarta, 02 November 2022) Dalam upaya menjaga kedaulatan negara dan memenuhi kebutuhan pertahanan bawah laut Indonesia, PT PAL Indonesia tengah mengembangkan produk terbaru yakni Kapal […]

www.pal.co.id

Seems PAL got German Partner on helping them to develop this unmanned submersible. Diehl Defence seems being talk to develop underwater weapons compartment. Let's see how this is developing.

I remember being told specifically by a PT PAL representative during a past Indo Defense expo that the 28 knot top speed was a cost reduction measure requested by the Navy.

It will be interesting question on how much the difference on building costs from PAL on KCR 60 and Tesco version of KCR 60. 40knts comment on top speed coming from TNI-AL announcer in the video.

Anyway, this is Jane's article on this Tesco KCR 60.

Indo Defence 2022: PT Tesco launches water-jet-propelled variant of KCR-60M attack craft

Indonesian private shipbuilder PT Tesco Indomaritim (Tesco) has launched a water-jet-propelled variant of the Kapal Cepat Rudal 60 Metre (KCR-60M) fast attack craft...

www.janes.com

that the old recycled Bofors 40 mm gun on the Teluk Bintuni LSTs are to be replaced by the newest and most advanced version of the Oto Melara Marlin 40 mm gun, and that also the new PC-60 patrolboats are to be equipped with a decent and modern main gun.

Not all will be using Oto Marlin 40mm.

Indo Defence 2022: India secures first contract for naval guns with Indonesia

Larsen & Toubro (L&T) has secured a contract to deliver 40 mm naval gun systems to the Indonesian Navy, which marks the first-ever export of the weapon system from India...

www.google.com

Hope Indian version of 40mm will used interchangeable ammo with Marlin 40mm. I believe @deadlast that put in this thread before how Navy ammo has interchangeable issue even when they come from same caliber.

 

[tonnyc]

Do you know if number 7, 8 and 9 of the KCR-60 will be equipped with waterjets?

I didn't ask, sorry. Tesco has a contract for three KCR-60, and I pretty much assumed that they all will share the same specification. However, I didn't actually ask and verify. My bad.

The Tesco KCR-60 will use ADVENT Combat Management System from Havelsan of Turkiye. I am somewhat concerned that they are not using Tecma for uniformity among all the KCR-60, but at least Advent follows NATO standard protocol so the new (batch 3?) KCR-60 will be able to integrate with the older batch 2 KCR-60.

Edit 2:

Sorry about the lighting. They put a spotlight right on top of the wall display and there is no good angle where the light isn't reflecting directly into the camera without cutting off the top part. Still, if you click on the thumbnail and get the original resolution, the words and numbers are readable.