Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion

[swerve]

...
It is very important that such payoffs/bribes are controlled through harsh steps, these guys walk away with a lot of money that can be utilized well, i hope that if the Court finds that the defense firms involved are found guilty, the whole deal is scrapped and all the money deposited back with the government, along with a 50 year ban on defense deals with the firms involved....

That will only work if the corrupt officers & officials involved are punished severely. If the only way to have your bid considered is to pay bribes, then a ban on the companies will have no effect, since not offering bribes will cause them to be banned . . . .

Corruption only works if someone inside the system is corrupt, & can only be stamped out by punishing those who take or solicit bribes. On the day when a foreign firm can hand over details of an attempt to solicit a bribe and 1) the bribe-taker is punished, & 2) the firm that shopped him is rewarded, you're making progress. In the current atmosphere, I suspect that every bidder has to offer inducements, or their bids will languish forever at the bottom of an in-tray.

 

[funtz]

That will only work if the corrupt officers & officials involved are punished severely. If the only way to have your bid considered is to pay bribes, then a ban on the companies will have no effect, since not offering bribes will cause them to be banned . . . .

Corruption only works if someone inside the system is corrupt, & can only be stamped out by punishing those who take or solicit bribes. On the day when a foreign firm can hand over details of an attempt to solicit a bribe and 1) the bribe-taker is punished, & 2) the firm that shopped him is rewarded, you're making progress. In the current atmosphere, I suspect that every bidder has to offer inducements, or their bids will languish forever at the bottom of an in-tray.

Once the charges are proven in accordance with the law of the state the officials face a terminated carrier and the time in the Big House, that is all that can be done, its a crime for which the state has laws and they can not be exceeded (hanging a guy is equally repulsive).
And there in lies the problem, these are not the easiest of charges to prove in a court of law. Once the money trail is found the work is done, of course you are still in a nation of a billion people with a legal system that is jammed packed.

Corruption will always exist sadly, its in human nature, however the point where it becomes a threat to the state must be avoided.

Corruption only works in the lack of accountability and transparency, when they are lacking, all humans take the easy road. This has worked all sectors where it has been introduced (accountability and transparency that is). Rest will take care of itself (imagine if a firm that has been snubbed in a contract due to corruption is provided with all the instruments to prove that there were irregularities).

That is why i think the delay that the implementation of these steps (accountability and transparency) might make into the procurement process has to be accepted for now. Lets see how the MMRCA acquisition goes ahead.

 

[funtz]

Navy submarine collides with merchant vessel north of Mumbai
Josy Joseph
Thursday, January 10, 2008 08:26 IST

INS Sindhughosh was taking part in fleet-level war games

NEW DELHI: One of the Indian Navy’s most advanced submarines, the INS Sindhughosh, rammed into a foreign merchant vessel in a freak accident during war games in the Arabian sea on January 7, raising concerns about safety and sailing precautions.

Some sources speculated whether an indigenously developed hydro-acoustal sonar, USHUS, malfunctioned, causing the accident.

Sources said the accident took place north of Mumbai when the Sindhughosh, one of few submarines of the Indian Navy that can launch anti-ship and anti-land missiles, was taking part in fleet-level war games.

More than one source told DNA that the damage was limited to the submarine’s fin. The 53 crew on board had a miraculous escape since the “rest of the hull was not damaged”, a source said.

But all of them admitted it was a “grievous error” for a submarine capable of prowling undetected underwater.

Sources told DNA that the Sindhughosh, a diesel-powered Kilo class submarine fitted with Klub class missiles, will need a few months of repairs. The Sindhughosh had undergone extensive refit in Russia and joined service late in 2005.

The navy spokesman refused to either confirm or deny the incident. An officer tried to play down the incident saying, “it was a minor accident.”

The submarine was apparently travelling at periscope depth when it rammed into the merchant vessel. The submarine managed to get back to Mumbai without any assistance, sources said.

An inquiry was in progress in Mumbai.

Many Navy sources admitted that the accident raises serious questions about the precautions taken while sailing a submarine. By military convention, a submarine doesn’t publicise its routes so its safety and secrecy are its own business.

This is the second instance of an Indian submarine meeting with a freak accident in recent years. A few years ago, another submarine rammed into an unidentified ship while it was surfacing off Goa.

I would have imagined going around in a submarine in such busy routes will always be dangerous to say the least. Thankfully no one suffered any inujries, the naval budget yes, but no humans.

This whole thing about sonar malfunctioning, how much does it say about the whole thing,
how quite can a merchant vessel be?
Sonars, how do they react in commercial routes?
why surface on/near a commercial route?

Quoting the article
"Many Navy sources admitted that the accident raises serious questions about the precautions taken while sailing a submarine."

So what are these precautions?

At least the navy is not so gloomy

The navy spokesman refused to either confirm or deny the incident. An officer tried to play down the incident saying, "it was a minor accident."

So that makes me wonder if the navy said it was a minor accident, how on earth did people come up with this report?

 

[shashank2008nai]

:lul INDIA IS SOON TO FLOAT THE BIGGEST TENDER OF $10 BILLION FOR INDUCTION OF 126 MULTIROLE FIGHTERS! MANY MAJOR AVIATION COMPANYS ARE COMPETING TO EARN THIS CONTRACT. MY QUESTION IS WHICH PLANE SHOULD INDIA CHOOSE. IS IT THE EURO FIGHTER TYPHOON, F-16 FIGHTING FALCON, F-18 HORNET,SWEDISH GRIPPEN,ETC. WHICH ONE.PLEASE POST YOUR COMMENTS. THIS IS SOMETHING JUST LIKE A SURVEY. GO FOR IT.


SHASHANK

[Mod edit]
Shashank, please do not post in all capital letters. See the rules, & particularly rule 23.
http://defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php
Also, this post is in a naval thread. It should be in the military aviation/air forces forum, where you will find appropriate threads.

PJI

PS. Welcome to the forum.
[/Mod edit]

 

[contedicavour]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...akthrough_on_Groshkov/articleshow/2686282.cms

This is interesting, 1.5 billion USD extra, might as well stick to the old name and keep it in the russian navy the Mig-29K is already there to fly around in russian colours. Not much use having them on the ground.

This Gorshkov deal is a never ending nightmare... I'm wondering if the Indian Navy shouldn't profit from the new close relationship with the US to borrow a retired CV (a few hundred million USD should be enough) and just drop the Gorshkov entirely. Navalized MIG29s can operate from a Kennedy CV after all. What a strange sight would it be to have Fulcrums taking off from a former USN carrier, but why not...

cheers

 

[AegisFC]

This Gorshkov deal is a never ending nightmare... I'm wondering if the Indian Navy shouldn't profit from the new close relationship with the US to borrow a retired CV (a few hundred million USD should be enough) and just drop the Gorshkov entirely. Navalized MIG29s can operate from a Kennedy CV after all. What a strange sight would it be to have Fulcrums taking off from a former USN carrier, but why not...

cheers

I doubt the US would sell any of its old Carriers (too similar in layout to the CVN's, one of the reasons why none of the Forestalls are museums yet) and the JFK was in sorry state when the US got rid of her, her engineering plant never was the most reliable and all of her cats and all of her arrestor wires were broke, it would take a lot of work to get the old girl into any sort of fighting state, then again the Indians could just weld a big ski jump on her and fix the arrestor wires and call it a day.

 

[swerve]

... I'm wondering if the Indian Navy shouldn't profit from the new close relationship with the US to borrow a retired CV (a few hundred million USD should be enough) and just drop the Gorshkov entirely. Navalized MIG29s can operate from a Kennedy CV after all. What a strange sight would it be to have Fulcrums taking off from a former USN carrier, but why not...

cheers

Too worn out, too expensive to operate, too big a crew, too big for any of Indias naval docks, no ski jump, & India has no catapult-capable aircraft in service or on order.

 

[funtz]

This Gorshkov deal is a never ending nightmare... I'm wondering if the Indian Navy shouldn't profit from the new close relationship with the US to borrow a retired CV (a few hundred million USD should be enough) and just drop the Gorshkov entirely. Navalized MIG29s can operate from a Kennedy CV after all. What a strange sight would it be to have Fulcrums taking off from a former USN carrier, but why not...

cheers

A lot of Russian equipment has Israeli stuff of it. :unknown

No to ex-US carriers for all the response above, and the general fear of second hand carrier deals that must be installed by now. The relations with the USA are just getting a good start, hardly at the strategic partner levels.

The Russian offer must have sounded too good to turn down (initially), A Aircraft carrier to plug the gap till the Indigenous Aircraft carrier came into being + Mig planes + refit.
The blame for not having a independent assessment of the Russian offer lies with the Ministry of defense, there is really not that much money to go around, the navy should use its share in the most effective manner, otherwise no point crying about lack of funds, a professional service that has high standards should accept that (at-least). However from the Civilian point, it looks like the Russians conned us (so called strategic partners).

Given that this has shown an absolute lack of ability to even judge the amount of work needed on the ship,
How would the Russians come out with a effective warship, if somehow the deal progressed?

At the point when the deal is delayed to a stage when the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier project and the Gorshkov have the same deadline, the very need of this AC might be questioned by the navy, after all 2.7 billion dollars can be utilized in much better ways by the Navy, or will the talked about Russian help -cooperation in other projects drag it into operational status with the Indian Navy. As even with the Indigenous Aircraft carrier project the Mig-29K will be the primary aircraft which will be operated, the LCA project even on the ground is not the best thing to ever have happened, on the sea the range and the weapons load should present some problems.

 

[contedicavour]

Thanks for the replies. I wasn't aware the Kennedy was so worn out. After all the USN has been retiring recent ships at such a pace... even sinking recent LHAs that I would have loved as second hand backup for my country's navy (I'm talking of the Tarawas)... that I thought the Kennedy could still have operated for some ten years (the Indian Navy is still using the 1959 Hermes-Vikrant...).

cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

As for getting an aircraft carrier, instead of buying aging carriers, maybe India should buy new, the Queen Elizabeth class would fit in really well. The last mid-sized carrier available was the ex-Foch. Brazil quickly snatched her. I know a Queen Elizabeth would be expensive, but she could last 50 years or more, not 10 or at most 20 years. Another ship order besides a French one would help the U.K. and France buy theirs. Otherwise, India has no choice but to convert Russian ships, as was planned. Unfortunately, India wasted a good 10 years deciding to go forward with the plan. Now, the Russians want more money to finish her. Either spend some more on her, on start over with the British, or build one at home, which would probably cost more than building a QE.

Yes, an ex-American Tarawa could be available very soon, but if they were purchased on the cheap, they would only be a stop gap, a short range fix. They are over 30 years in age, and much like the Foch, won't last long. Its my opinion if India wants a carrier, either pay more to finish off the Russian conversion, or buy a new QE. Frankly, I like the QE solution best. If the United Kingdom and France were able to sell one abroad, it would help both nations afford other support ships.

 

[harryriedl]

As for getting an aircraft carrier, instead of buying aging carriers, maybe India should buy new, the Queen Elizabeth class would fit in really well. The last mid-sized carrier available was the ex-Foch. Brazil quickly snatched her. I know a Queen Elizabeth would be expensive, but she could last 50 years or more, not 10 or at most 20 years. Another ship order besides a French one would help the U.K. and France buy theirs. Otherwise, India has no choice but to convert Russian ships, as was planned. Unfortunately, India wasted a good 10 years deciding to go forward with the plan. Now, the Russians want more money to finish her. Either spend some more on her, on start over with the British, or build one at home, which would probably cost more than building a QE.

Yes, an ex-American Tarawa could be available very soon, but if they were purchased on the cheap, they would only be a stop gap, a short range fix. They are over 30 years in age, and much like the Foch, won't last long. Its my opinion if India wants a carrier, either pay more to finish off the Russian conversion, or buy a new QE. Frankly, I like the QE solution best. If the United Kingdom and France were able to sell one abroad, it would help both nations afford other support ships.

the QE style design has been brought up as a solution a 2025 requirement for a carrier the problem is that Gorshkov and the ADS they are already deeply into construction and would be unfordable to scrap both/or one as they have spent in excess on 1 billion+ on each

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

As for getting an aircraft carrier, instead of buying aging carriers, maybe India should buy new, the Queen Elizabeth class would fit in really well.

If India has $US 4-5 billion for one aircraft carrier it can go for it - it wouldn't get it any cheaper (doubt the Indian yards could make one that big).

 

[funtz]

wont it be better to invest that money into the Indigenous Aircraft carrier
project? Afterall its being build with close ooperation of the Indian Navy.

That much money could really put the project on a fast lane, the design could evolve with the follow on ships under the project, and do a lot of good for the ship building industry.
As Mr. sea toby said, this gorshkov thing should have been sealed almost a decade ago (with a negative response).

 

[Tasman]

I agree with those who believe that India would get better value out of acquiring new build carriers rather than spending a fortune on modernising or completing old ships with comparatively limited lifespans. Whether a QE type or an indigenous design is the best way to go might come down to cost and how much benefit there would be for Indian shipbuilders.

The problem at the moment is the amount already invested (both time and money) on Vikramaditya so new build ships may have to wait a while yet.

Tas

 

[funtz]

I think the question of resources must have been the big factor in the previous second hand aircraft carriers. This whole refit gorshkov/vikramaditya was a way to plug the gap which is on the last mile of its journey towards becoming a white elephent (or may be its there already).

As for other carriers, the investment into the Indeginous Aircrat carrier project, and the navy coming out with suggestions/plans to improve the domestic shipbuilding industry, the road that will be travelled is clear.

Some old news

INDIGENOUS AIRCRAFT CARRIER
Project Update: Construction commenced with plate cutting on 11 April 2005. The keel is planned to be laid down in 2008. In an information session in Parliament, on 16 May 2007, Defence Minister A K Antony stated that induction of a third aircraft carrier is envisioned by 2017. He added that a decision to construct another vessel can be made only after the construction of the first ship has progressed beyond a certain state. This would suggest a keel laying date of post October 2010, which is the tentative launch date of the first ship. In an interview to the Times of India, dated 01 December 2007, the Chief of Naval Staff - Admiral Sureesh Mehta - stated that the second IAC is already on the drawing board and at least three such vessels are planned. The Admiral also indicated that the first IAC will not be delayed beyond 2012, contrary to reports of a revised delivery schedule of 2014 - 2015.

Navy indigenous aircraft carrier on way
27 Nov 2004, 1407 hrs IST,PTI

PANAJI: Indian Navy has started construction of an indigenous aircraft carrier with a 40,000 tonne displacement capacity at an estimated cost of Rs 3,000 crore, Navy Chief Admiral Arun Prakash said on Saturday.

"Besides acquiring the 'Gorshkov' aircraft carrier from Russia, the Indian navy has also started construction -- at its Cochin Shipyard -- of a totally indigenous aircraft carrier with a capacity of 25 aircraft," Admiral Prakash told reporters after the 69th passing out parade at the Naval Academy in Panaji.

"The government has sanctioned Rs 3,000 crore so far," he said.

The way defence projects go, this might become another one of those long drawn out projects occupying the shipyard for some time.

This Gorshkov thing was supposed to be a government to government deal,

so my question is
How do such deals happen?
Does the Military have any say in this, or is this strictly a government affair?

 

[funtz]

This was in the paper today.

India eyes $2b defence deal with US
29 Jan 2008, 0002 hrs IST,Rajat Pandit,TNN

NEW DELHI: After joint combat exercises to develop "interoperability", the Indo-US military tango is now firmly waltzing into the arms purchase arena as well. With the over $1-billion deal for six C-130J 'Super Hercules' aircraft in the bag, an even bigger defence contract is now headed the US way.

Sources on Monday said the defence ministry and Boeing have begun the "commercial price negotiations" for the purchase of eight P-8i long-range maritime reconnaissance (LRMR) patrol aircraft, with anti-submarine warfare capabilities, for the Indian Navy. Unlike the Super Hercules deal, which as reported by TOI earlier is a direct 'foreign military sale' contract under a government-to-government arrangement, the P-8i has emerged the victor in the global LRMR sweepstakes held by India to plug operational gaps in its maritime snooping abilities.

The P-8i, based on the Boeing-737 commercial airliner, has out-performed the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company's A-319 maritime patrol aircraft and other contenders in meeting 'qualitative requirements' in the technical trials held by the Navy. "The contract will be signed soon. The first P-8i will be delivered within 48 months, that is in mid-2012 and all the eight by mid-2015. They will replace the Navy's eight aging Tupolev-142Ms," said a source.

India, incidentally, had earlier rejected the US offer to lease two P-3C Orion reconnaissance aircraft under a $133-million contract. India, of course, remains unhappy over the American decision to sell eight more P-3C Orion aircraft to Pakistan, which already has two such planes in its inventory. Once it's inked, the P-8i deal worth around $2 billion will be the biggest-ever defence contract with the US, a minor player in the lucrative Indian arms market so far.

......

Apart from the defence deals, with US secretary of defence Robert Gates slated to arrive in India on February 25-26, the two countries are getting ready to sign agreements like the Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA), Container Security Initiative (CSI) and the end-use verification agreement of US defence equipment. The Logistics Support Agreement (LSA) — under which Indian and American militaries propose to provide each other with logistic support, refuelling and berthing facilities for each other's warships and aircraft — has, however, been put on the backburner due to opposition of the Left.

CPM leader Prakash Karat has termed LSA "far more dangerous than the nuclear deal" in its implications. But despite Left opposition to military ties with the US, the two nations have already scheduled at least five joint combat exercises in 2008. "Procurements is just one facet in the overall robust defence engagement with the US.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/India_eyes_2b_defence_deal_with_US/articleshow/2738886.cms

What is this "end-use verification agreement of US defence equipment"?

Is it in regards with who uses the equipment, or some sort of restriction on the situations where it can be used?

And how does this apply to defense equipments, if the Americans are concerned about few of the planes being shipped off to Russia, then why on earth are they selling/proposing to sell their front line technology?

or will the US stuff be downgraded in some way?

2 Billion for 8 aircrafts, why nothing comes cheap, does it.

Replacing the Tupolev-142s is going to be something, i remember navy people used to say it could go to south african coast and come back with out refueling midway.

This Aircraft is not in production yet, so how did it meet the 'qualitative requirements' in the technical trials?

According to the Boeing page on the P-8A Poseidon

Flight-test delivery of first aircraft, 2009
Initial operational capability and expected full-production decision, 2013

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/p8a/index.html

So what is the Navy buying, A paper plane, should they not wait till 2010-13 to consider the plane? especially considering that all defence deals seem to have delays as a part of development.
The negotiations for the price might well run and go beyond the 2012-13 time frame, so i guess that will pull things back a bit, still does not make sense to commit to this plane so soon, its not like the plane will get all booked up if we wait too long. And this is like what the Midway stage, hence no great input from Indian navy or technology exchange (its like 8 planes), might as well see how things go.
As this was not a government to government deal, at least Boeing will have to invest the offsets back.

and this is what it says on the Boeing pdf about this plane

India is currently considering acquisition of the P-8I. A derivative of the P-8A designed specifically for the unique requirements of the Indian Navy.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/p8a/docs/P-8A_overview.pdf

more time delays to be expected?

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys,check out this link,it contains the image of the nstl float during the indian republic day parade,this float displays the first models of the two indigenously designed torpedos,the varunastra heavy weight torpedo and the tal light weight torpedo.

here check out this link:

http://pib.nic.in/photo/2008/Jan/l2008012616664.jpg

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys,check out this interesting link,it seems that drdo is now developing a multipurpose underwater unmanned vessel for the indian navy.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200801282240.htm

DRDO developing unmanned underwater vehicle

Chennai (PTI): The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is developing a unmanned underwater vehicle, which could defuse mines in the sea and attack enemy submarines, DRDO chief A Sivathanu Pillai said here on Monday.
Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of a science exhibition, he said the DRDO had already provided an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) to the Indian Air Force. It had now decided to develop an unmanned underwater vehicle, which would be of immense use to the Indian Navy during wars.
"The prototype for the underwater vehicle is being developed and we will be able to come out with a final product in five years", he said.
The Exhibition was organised by the Tamil Nadu Science and Techonology centre in collaboration with the Madras Science Association.
On Brahmos, developed by DRDO, he said work on the second phase of Brahmos will begin soon. "We will design the supersonic cruise missile to cross the speed of five to seven times the speed of sound even before other countries can think of it". He said the Centre was allocating Rs 5,000 crore every year for DRDO and would be increased by 10 per cent, reaching Rs 7,500 crore at the end of five year plan.

 

[A.Mookerjee]

The trick in making any sea faring vessel which is heavy on the purse strings, is to make your difficulty into an advantage. How can we build a Technologically Superior Navy, under any circumstance? Perhaps, if we look at the problem, the ease is in the difficulty, or in other words, the solution is in the problem. When one looks at problems, one is missing out on the solution. When any technology is introduced, which is new, it is equally important to explore the origins of the technology, as it is to develop the technology. This is if one is new to the technology.

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys,check out this article,it seems,that indian goverment wants to start naval ship building operations at the hindustan shipyards limited,and are also interested in joint shipbuilding cooperation with south korea(they build some realy beautiful ships),i wish they would acquire the south korean kdx2 or kdx3 frigates for their p17a frigate acquisition programme.

here is the link and article:

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1148187

Plans to invest Rs1,000 cr in mordenisation
MUMBAI: State-owned ship-building and ship-repair major Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL) is set to add naval ships to its order book.
The defence ministry is keen to place orders for building naval ships at HSL and a decision is expected by next month, a source said.
Currently, state-owned Mazgaon Docks Ltd, Garden Reach, Kolkata, Goa Shipyard and Cochin Shipyard build most of the naval ships. Among the private firms, ABG Shipyard has built some coast guard ships, while Bharati Shipyard has built some vessels for the Indian Navy.
India’s shipbuilding capability is saturated with shipyards booked to capacity. However, there is demand for more warships and small vessels from the Indian Navy as a large number of old vessels will be scrapped in the next five years. So much so, the defence ministry is also keen on shipbuilding cooperation with South Korea.
In this context, placing a few orders with HSL will ease the pressure somewhat.
Meanwhile, HSL, one of the oldest shipyards in the country, is working towards optimising its existing capacity to increase efficiency and double turnover.
It plans to invest Rs 1,000 crore in modernisation of the facilities by acquiring more cranes, improving material handling, automation and improved infrastructure, in the next five years.
“We have applied for a package from the government to fund the project and would raise the remaining amount through debt,” said Ajit Tewari, chairman and managing director, HSL. The shipyard is already in talks with banks such as Indian Bank and State Bank of India for debt.
“We would be investing Rs 400 crore in the next 2-3 years, of which Rs 200 crore would be used to acquire heavier cranes, up to 900 tonnes, on an immediate basis,” Tewari added.
HSL, with a building order book of Rs2,000 crore, has a capacity to build four ships (up to 80,000 tonnes capacity) a year. With the modern machinery and efficient activities, the yard expects to build 8 ships per year and also assist its ship repair division, which has an order book of Rs 200 crore at present.