Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion

[aaaditya]

hey guys,interesting news here,it seems that the indian navy is planning to take a more proactive role in the monitoring of the indian ocean,the first step is to improve the relationship with friendly nations and hence the indian navy has launched the indian ocean naval symposium.

i also believe that the acquisition of the p-8 mma will go a long way towards meeting this goal,though just 8 aircrafts seem to be inadequate .

here is the link and the article:

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080041216&ch=2/14/2008 12:43:53 PM

Thursday, February 14, 2008 (New Delhi)

Indian Navy, the strongest in the region is now taking steps to strengthen the policing of the nearly 74 million square kilometres of the Indian Ocean, an effort to deal with the new emerging security threats.

Last year 25 warships from five countries participated in ''war games'' in the Bay of Bengal.

Now to police 73.6 million square kilometres of the Indian Ocean Region, the Navy will launch the first ever consultative mechanism on maritime issues, the Indian Ocean Naval Symposium (IONS).

• It will have 31 countries including France, Djibouti, Egypt, South Africa, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Indonesia and Australia.
• Its goals include developing common doctrines and operational processes for speedy disaster relief .
• Strengthening the capability of members to counter maritime security challenges.

The United States too has a similar platform, the Western Naval Pacific Symposium, comprising 21 members to achieve similar goals.

However, the Indian Navy says it is not a military alliance.

''IONS is a non-hegemonic consultative mechanism designed to promote cooperation among navies in the Indian Ocean region,'' said Rear Admiral Pradeep Chauhan.

But what does the new step signify.

''It is just a sign of growing India. India has one of the strongest navy in the region and it is good that they have taken the lead,'' said Kanwal Sibal, former Foreign Secretary.

While several questions remain about the new security structure, one thing is clear - the Indian Navy has taken the lead to deal with new emerging security threats in the Indian Ocean Region.

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys,check out this interesting link,it gives a highlight of defence technology offered or on offer to indian navy from italy.

the list is impressive.

here is the link and the article:


http://www.avionews.com/index.php?c...s_id=1085785&pagina_chiamante=corpo=index.php

New Delhi, India - From February 16th to 19th
(WAPA) - From 16th to 19th February, Finmeccanica will present at "Defexpo 2008", New Delhi, its capabilities in the aeronautics, helicopters, security and defence systems sectors.

India is experiencing a time of strong economic growth and is likely to see important government programmes in Defence and Aeronautics sectors in the next 10-15 years.

As a matter of fact, owing to the extraordinary rise in the number of flights, the country needs to equip itself with appropriate air traffic control and management systems and new aircraft to cope with market demand.

Finmeccanica is responding to the former with the technological capabilities of systems manufactured by SELEX Sistemi Integrati, which over the years has supplied radar equipment to the largest airports in the country, and has recently won the contract to supply 13 systems (comprising primary radar ATC-R33S, secondary radar SIR-S and 52 CDS-2000 consoles) for the Indian Air Force's air traffic control.

At the same time, the larger Indian airlines - Jet Airways, Air Deccan, Air Alliance and Kingfisher - have already bought dozens of turboprop regional aircraft manufactured by ATR, a joint venture between Alenia Aeronautica and EADS. In Bangalore ATR opened a Customer Support Centre and - in partnership with Air Deccan - a training centre which will operate for both Indian and other airlines.

The increasing presence of ATR in India, as well as the opportunity to access training centres and a wide technical support network, could also help persuade the country to choose the twin-engine ATR-42MP for maritime patrol missions.

The ATR-42MP is equipped with Galileo Avionica's atos mission system, and Seaspray search radar developed by SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems, the most advanced system available for this category of aircraft, also chosen by the US Coast Guard to update its HC-130 patrol planes. On 1 January 2008, SELEX Sensors & Airborne Systems and Galileo Avionica began to operate on the market with the name SELEX GALILEO.

In the helicopters business, AgustaWestland has strong interests in the country in terms of potential developments in the civil market and also for the tender under way to supply VVIP helicopters to the Armed Forces.

The AW-101 is the ideal helicopter for this programme, in light of its recent successes on the international market, and the additional interest that it could generate in the Navy and Air Force. In addition, AgustaWestland is continuing its strategy of strengthening existing relationships with distributors and local maintenance and technical support centres, and of identifying potential partners for joint development projects in India.

Moreover, in response to the Indian Navy's requirements for a naval helicopter, AgustaWestland is promoting the NH-90 helicopter in the NFH version for naval applications for which the company has full responsibility for the mission system integration.

In the air defence sector, SELEX Sistemi Integrati is competing for the contract to supply 30 3D Low-Level Transportable Radar systems (LLTR) for the Indian Air Force.

India - which boasts a long tradition in the naval sector - also has ambitious projects for the Navy that could involve Finmeccanica companies as suppliers and integrators not only of Combat Management Systems and Command and Control systems, but also of individual equipment, weapons systems and sensors, such as SELEX Sistemi Integrati's RAN-40L naval radar, already installed on board the Italian aircraft carrier Cavour.

To this end, Finmeccanica companies also co-operate with local companies in both the development and production phases: WASS, which is promoting its Black Shark systems for Scorpene submarines, is working with Bharat Dynamics Ltd in the underwater systems sector. Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd has obtained from Oto Melara a licence to produce 76mm naval cannons.

The licence could also be extended to cover production of 127mm cannons, which are currently the subject of a tender process for installation on the Indian Navy's new class of destroyer.

In a country with an area of over 3 million sq km, 7000 km of coastline and a population of more than 1 billion inhabitants, state-of-the-art instruments and systems capable of confronting and responding to any type of threat efficiently and rapidly are essential to guarantee safety and security and protect the country's borders, the Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and its critical infrastructure.

Finmeccanica's large systems and solutions match these needs.

 

[Salty Dog]

Apart from the defence deals, with US secretary of defence Robert Gates slated to arrive in India on February 25-26, the two countries are getting ready to sign agreements like the Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA), Container Security Initiative (CSI) and the end-use verification agreement of US defence equipment. The Logistics Support Agreement (LSA) — under which Indian and American militaries propose to provide each other with logistic support, refuelling and berthing facilities for each other's warships and aircraft — has, however, been put on the backburner due to opposition of the Left.

This paves the way for some interesting future interoperability, not to mention . . . . hardware.

 

[Firehorse]

Govt ready to pay more for Gorshkov
2 Feb 2008, 0238 hrs IST,Rajat Pandit,TNN

NEW DELHI: India is willing to meet Russia midway in its demand for an additional $1.2 billion for the modernization, refit of the decommissioned carrier aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov.
Though there is reluctance to talk exact figures at this stage, with defence secretary Vijay Singh slated to lead a high-level team to Russia on February 19, defence ministry sources say India would be ready to shell out another $500-600 million to Russia for the 44,570-tonne carrier.
"Some of our teams are already in Russia. We do realise the extensive modernization work on the 44,570-tonne Gorshkov was underestimated at the time of signing the contract. But the $1.2-billion figure is way too high. We are negotiating with the Russians to cut it down by around half," said a source.
This, of course, is yet another instance of Russia's increasing propensity to jack-up costs midway through execution of defence projects, like it happened in the Sukhoi-30MKI fighter contracts, apart from huge delays, which has already caused a 'big chill' in bilateral defence ties.
The haggling over the cost jump in what was "a fixed-price contract" apart, India knows Gorshkov is crucial for its plan to have a potent blue-water presence in the entire Indian Ocean Region. The Navy, after all, hopes to have two operational 'carrier battle-groups' by the middle of the next decade.
The Indian delegation, which will include Navy vice chief Vice-Admiral Nirmal Verma, secretary (defence production) Pradeep Kumar and director-general (acquisitions) Shashikant Sharma, will hold crucial talks with the Russians to
arrive at "a mutual figure" after examining the partly-burnt carrier berthed at the Sevmash shipyard in north Russia for the last 12 years.
As per the initial package deal signed with Russia in January 2004, India was to pay $1.5 billion for Gorshkov' s refurbishment, along with 16 MiG-29K 'Fulcrum' supersonic fighters and a mix of Ka-31 and Ka-28 helicopters to operate from its carrier's deck. The delivery date was then fixed at August 2008.
But last year, Russia shocked India by demanding another $1.2 billion for the refit of Gorshkov — already rechristened INS Vikramaditya after India paid an initial $500 million — apart from pushing back its delivery date to 2012-2013.
In the absence of blueprints since the carrier was built in Ukraine in the 1980s before the Soviet Union breakup, Russian engineers made some 'errors' in estimating the work required on the warship.
It was, for instance, thought the carrier would require new cabling running into around 700-km in length. But once it was opened up, this figure was revised to 2,400 km.
Then, of course, the work entails removal of the huge missile launchers on the bow to build a ski-jump at a 14.3 degree angle for the MiG-29Ks. It's also to be fitted with new-generation air defence and other weapon systems, new engines, eight diesel boilers with generators, electrical machinery, communication systems, distillation plants and the like. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-2749942,prtpage-1.cms

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14598535

India cannot afford to pull out of the deal at this juncture as it has already paid nearly 50 per cent (500 million dollars) of the contracted amount.
The then Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov, who had specially flown from Moscow to sign the 1.5-billion US dollar agreement with his Indian counterpart George Fernandes, had stated that the Gorshkov deal incorporated life-time upgrades for the warship from the Russian side.A lot of work was required to be done on Admiral Gorshkov to convert it into a state-of-the-art carrier.
Initially, the aircraft carrier's flight deck was to be extended and a powder type catapult installed for short take-offs and landings (STOL). The Russian side had indicated that all these alterations and improvements would take another four years or so. http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Feb32008/national2008020350239.asp?section=updatenews

This underlined info. is new to me! What is "powder type catapult"?

 

[funtz]

That will be a catapult operated by gun powder i think, the USA might havew a patent on that, do a search and tell me too.

This could be a step to ensure or rather an effort to rig up the E-2 Hawkeye back when the navy was contemplating about it.

may be they will consider some similar catapults for a fixed wing AEW platform on the indigenous project, or may be they wont.

I think many people here can comment better than me on that.

 

[funtz]

Aint google the Rock Star of our generation

"Aircraft were launched from the ship by a catapult operated by gunpowder," explains Oliver. Battleships
and cruisers were, at the time, typically outfitted with two stern-mounted catapults for such purposes.

The Navy even equipped some destroyers with them, although the smaller ships had to give up a gun turret and the torpedo tubes , to make room for the catapult. "An eight-inch shell filled with black powder was fired into a chamber, and by the movement of a piston [and] a series of pulleys and cables, a cradle holding the plane was literally fired down the catapult track,"says Oliver. "This amounted to being fired from a cannon, since the plane accelerated from zero to 60 knots within a few feet. ìIt was a sturdy aircraft and could take a lot of punishment,"he adds.
"We may have called them ëlow and slow,í but they were rugged.

"Prior to launch," Oliver continues, "the ship would turn to a heading that would place the relative wind about 30 degrees off the bow. The catapult would then be trained outboard to put the wind directly down the track." When crews wanted to launch two Kingfishers in rapid succession, they expedited the process by loading both catapults, starboard and port sides. "The ship would turn so that the starboard catapult was facing into the wind, and launch that Kingfisher first. Then they rotated the port-facing catapult 90 degrees so that it now also faced the starboard side, and launch that Kingfisher as well. This process avoided the labor-intensive maneuver of changing the shipís direction, and enabled us to launch quickly."

http://www.serviceclub.org/air_space_catapult_crews_layout-fm05.pdf

Why there is even a littile picture of this process.

View attachment 2440

Interesting read though it goes slightly off topic in terms of generations of aircrafts/ships and the type of aircrafts, interesting read none the less.

 

[Salty Dog]

That will be a catapult operated by gun powder i think, the USA might havew a patent on that, do a search and tell me too.

This could be a step to ensure or rather an effort to rig up the E-2 Hawkeye back when the navy was contemplating about it.

may be they will consider some similar catapults for a fixed wing AEW platform on the indigenous project, or may be they wont.

I think many people here can comment better than me on that.

That is really reaching far back for catapault technology. I just hope they use smokeless gunpowder.

The plan is to use this with a ski-jump???

 

[funtz]

Its not a plan per say, its a small line in a report, which i think might have been on the table for the small duration of time in which E-2 was offered to the Indian Navy as a AEW solution for the carrier, the carrier it self will use STOBAR when it comes out.

If this was a plan then may be it was a single catapult custom made for the E-2. Admiral Gorshkov is a fairly old design, installing a single catapult which utilized steam or electricity might have been too complex, leaving this option open, again as all things with its own disadvantages.

As i said all guesses on my part.

Again this is just one news report made by a reporter. There is every chance of none of this being true, unless a direct comment can be found involving someone who was in a official position.

The indigenous design will involve a lot of help from around the world i guess (consulting and what not), they should have kept the single catapult option open. Well they know better than me, i guess.

It is funny however, how by the time the project launches a ship, the military or political leadership who authorized the project might be long retired.

 

[kams]

With the ongoing Defexpo08 in New Delhi, we are getting lots of new info.

From Finmeccanica press release,
link





In a recent interview, IN Chief Admiral Suresh Mehta revealed that IN's meritime surveilence will have 3 layers,

1. Short Range - UAV (Searcher II, Heron) and Dornier 228
2. Medium Range - IL-38 SD (and future replacement - ATR-42MP or equivalent)
3. Long range - LRMP - Present TU-124, future - P-8I favourite to win or Airbus/CASA

Moreover, in response to the Indian Navy's requirements for a naval helicopter, AgustaWestland is promoting the NH-90 helicopter in the NFH version for naval applications for which the company has full responsibility for the mission system integration.

Admiral Suresh Mehta indicated that Sea Kings will be upgraded and replacements will start rolling in 5-6 years.

India - which boasts a long tradition in the naval sector - also has ambitious projects for the Navy that could involve Finmeccanica companies as suppliers and integrators not only of Combat Management Systems and Command and Control systems, but also of individual equipment, weapons systems and sensors, such as SELEX Sistemi Integrati's RAN-40L naval radar, already installed on board the Italian aircraft carrier Cavour.

The increasing presence of ATR in India, as well as the opportunity to access training centres and a wide technical support network, could also help persuade the country to choose the twin-engine ATR-42MP for maritime patrol missions.

The ATR-42MP is equipped with Galileo Avionica's ATOS mission system, and Seaspray search radar developed by SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems, the most advanced system available for this category of aircraft, also chosen by the US Coast Guard to update its HC-130 patrol planes. On 1 January 2008, SELEX Sensors & Airborne Systems and Galileo Avionica began to operate on the market with the name SELEX GALILEO.

IN's net-centric plan had heavy inputs from US. apparently this has run in to state department beurocracy. Would be nice to have European alternative. Afterall when you are cash rich and not dependent on charity, customer is the King. . In Radars, however I doubt In will opt for any European item, as IN will start inducting LRDE's 3D CAR (Revati- Naval version), and Kolkatta class will have MF-STAR.

To this end, Finmeccanica companies also co-operate with local companies in both the development and production phases: WASS, which is promoting its Black Shark systems for Scorpene submarines, is working with Bharat Dynamics Ltd in the underwater systems sector. Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd has obtained from Oto Melara a licence to produce 76mm naval cannons.

The licence could also be extended to cover production of 127mm cannons, which are currently the subject of a tender process for installation on the Indian Navy's new class of destroyer.

WASS is currently collaborating for developing torpedo decoy system too. 127mm guns on Kolkatta class would be nice for shore bombardment.

Considering that problems Russians having in delivering agrred upon contracts, Europeans may also win the Navy's tender for second line of submarine.

Add to that 7 news class of destroyers for which IN floated RFI last year.

Overall Europe may gain substantial IN order, US for LRMP.

 

[funtz]

And i thought i knew what funny was.

Scorpene submarine likely to roll out by 2012

New Delhi (PTI): The Scorpene submarine could be fitted with the underwater version of the Brahmos cruise missiles, which could enhance Indian Navy's strategic firepower capability, French Company DCNS on Sunday announced.

"If India wants, Brahmos cruise missiles can be fitted on the Scorpene being built under technology transfer at Mazagon docks," DCNS project director Xavier Marchal told newspersons at the ongoing CII sponsored Defence-Expo.

DCNS is manufacturing the submarine.

If New Delhi gives the go ahead, it would increase the potential of the Navy, giving it a second option of firing missiles from submarines. Navy's recently upgraded Russian Kilo class submarines are armed with shore strike missiles.

DCNS executive vice president and chief operating officer Bernard Planchais also announced that teething problems in effecting technology transfer have been taken care of and the first of the Indian Navy's six Scorpene submarine will roll out in 2012.

"The first submarine is scheduled to be delivered in 2012 with the other five to follow at a rate of one per year," Planchais said

His words would come as a reassurance as transfer of technology to the Mumbai-based Mazagaon Dock has already put behind the roll out of the Scorpene by one year.

"I have reviewed the progress of the work at the Mazagon Dock in Mumbai, where the submarines are being constructed, recently and everything is going well. I am confident that we will be able to deliver all the submarines as per schedule," Planchais said. He added that the DCNS would be contending for Navy's subsequent orders for six more submarines.

Planchais remarks assumes significance in the backdrop of announcement by Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta that India would float global tenders for the second line of submarines this year.

India proposes to have 24 submarines with the mix of conventional and nuclear ones under the 20:20 submarine vision of the Navy. India is to acquire a nuclear submarine on lease from Russia next year, when its own advance technology vehicle would be ready for sea trials.

The DCNS has also launched a wholly-owned Indian subsidiary, with Mumbai as its headquarters, to acquire parts locally for its ongoing as well as future projects.

"Indian market is providing very good opportunities. There are certain physical difficulties and we are sorting out that and organising ourselves in the country," Marchal said. He said the company was also looking for joint venture with Indian companies to offer specialized services, design and operations in different defence projects.

Asked whether Scorpenes were better than Agosta, the submarines which are being constructed by the DCNS for Pakistan Navy, DCNS project director Xavier Marchal said "Of course Agostas are inferior than Scorpenes".

On follow on priorities, Planchais said "Our current priority is to succeed the Scorpene project".

Marchal said Idian naval shipbuilder Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineering Ltd (GRSE) has awarded DCNS a contract to supply propulsion equipment and auxiliaries, including thrust blocks, for four type P28 anti-submarine warfare corvettes for the Indian Navy.

The contract is led by a partnership comprising DCNS and Indian companies Walchandagar Industries Ltd. DCNS also assists GRSE with propulsion system integration.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200802171740.htm

The French can be so..... well the type of chaps who play different tunes to different crowds

I bet the Russians would make a hue and cry about the BrahMos on Scorpion, however if the BrahMos submarine faces delays in tests due to non availability of a test bed and russia does not bend some files to get this done.

What on earth will give them any hope at all in the upcoming second line of subs?
there is another way of asking this question

Can the Russians use the BrahMos as a advantage?

We sure seem to be becoming a global hunting ground for defense firms, or shall i say a melting pot?

 

[kams]

Navy eyes new submarines for blue-water capability

Second submarine line for Indian navy

New Delhi: The Indian Navy has set the ball rolling for acquisition of new warships and submarines.


India has made it clear that it wants more muscle at sea and has kick-started the process of acquiring six new hunter-killer submarines and seven new frigates.

Request for information have recently been issued to the French DCNS, Spanish Navantia, Russian Rubin and German HDW.


"It is a new submarine. It is not the Scorpene and it is a bigger submarine with specific features," Alain Fougeron, Executive VP, DCNS says about its new submarines

That is very very interesting, a bigger submarine, which is specific to India.

The key differentiator from its existing fleet of 16 submarines will be a new class of missiles, which will establish India as the leading naval power in the region.


"The missile component of the Submarine weapon is very important and it should be very powerful," Andrey V Efimov, Manager, Rubin Design Bureau, says.

By considering four options India has sent a message that it wants to diversify its weapons procurement beyond traditional arms supplier Russia.

New Class of missile - Either Btahmos or something entirely new - K-15. DCNS head also disclosed today that they are ready to fit Brahmos to Scorpenes currently under manufacture.

Another intresting news is about new class of Frigates, P-17A for which RFI was sent last year. Although Vishal Thapar tries to apin that Americans (Lockmart) have a cake walk in this deal, European and Russians may give tough competition. IN has longstanding relationship with Finncantieri and DCNS.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

If Brahmos is really such a great " War Winning missile " (Forceindia.net) and it is a joint venture between India and Russia where India contributed with only Intertial Navigation and Fire Control System and the rest of everything was built by Russia then why didnt Russia Induct it in its services ?

 

[funtz]

Is not exactly "only" the INS and FCS.

Russians have whole this whole collection of cruise missiles of different type for land based use and sea based use, its nearly enough to blow a small nation.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

Is not exactly "only" the INS and FCS.

Russians have whole this whole collection of cruise missiles of different type for land based use and sea based use, its nearly enough to blow a small nation.

What else did the Indians contribute in the Brahmos program ?

Still, dont make sense to produce one missile in a joint venture and still not induct it.

 

[funtz]

It does when that sets precedence to a 5 billion dollar funding for something like the PAK-FA.

And when that leads to a joint venture for a medium lift transport aircraft.

It is a layered relationship, with its own advantages

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

It does when that sets precedence to a 5 billion dollar funding for something like the PAK-FA.

And when that leads to a joint venture for a medium lift transport aircraft.

It is a layered relationship, with its own advantages

I see. Would bribe be a proper word ?

You didnt tell me. What else did the Indians contribute with in Brahmos aside from INS and FCS ?

 

[kams]

It does when that sets precedence to a 5 billion dollar funding for something like the PAK-FA.

And when that leads to a joint venture for a medium lift transport aircraft.

It is a layered relationship, with its own advantages

funtz,

Brahmos partnership has evolved in to new products such as Brahmos 2. Dr.Pillay also mentioned during the Defexpo 08 that sublaunched Brahmos will be tested this year and air-launched version in 2009 using TU-124. Su-30MKI integration may take more time.

Also afaik it won't be integrated wilth IL-38SD.

 

[kams]

I see. Would bribe be a proper word ?

You didnt tell me. What else did the Indians contribute with in Brahmos aside from INS and FCS ?

You are trolling again,

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

You are trolling again,

No. I am not.

I asked Funtz if he can inform me of any other form the Indians contributed in the Brahmos program other then INS and FCS because he said it is not exactly the only two things.

It was a very innocent question.

 

[kams]

No. I am not.

I asked Funtz if he can inform me of any other form the Indians contributed in the Brahmos program because he said it is not exactly the only two things.

It was a very innocent question.

Yes it is very innocent -

I see. Would bribe be a proper word ?

May be you have a comprehension problem, we don't.

Any way have a nice day.