Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

[tphuang]

From what I know, only if the SSBN is noisy enough that it requires protection. In that case a bastion strategy is used whereby SSNs would be used to sanitise an area and keep it sanitised for the SSBN to operate safely. The western submarines didn't need escorts.

kind of pointless to say that unless you think the first nuclear subs Indian develop are going to be quiet, which I presume you don't. They will be lucky to not have a lot of serious problems with their reactors.

Tell me about it, however the second strike capability is the most crucial one which India needs as a declared no - first use nuc power, and tht is where if a choice was there btw an SSBN and an SSN; India would have choosen to develop a SSBN first

well, it actually makes more sense to get an operational nuclear submarine out first, ballistic or not, continuously improve on the design, make safer nuclear reactors and such. incremental design is helpful.

 

[dragonfire]

kind of pointless to say that unless you think the first nuclear subs Indian develop are going to be quiet, which I presume you don't. They will be lucky to not have a lot of serious problems with their reactors.

To make comments before the sub is out for trials would be to make assumptions but i read somewhre tht it would use anechonic rubber tiles and tht the reactor would be loaded in a way as to reduce noises as well

well, it actually makes more sense to get an operational nuclear submarine out first, ballistic or not, continuously improve on the design, make safer nuclear reactors and such. incremental design is helpful.

I think th initial plan was a SSN size but then th intention is now a SSBN which is the size of a US SSN Infact it has been nicknamed bywesterners as a baby boomer

but i guess once the first ATV is tested then further plans can be laid out for construction although one can be confident tht designs would be ready for the CCS approvals

 

[dragonfire]

News Update

First indigenous aircraft carrier to be built soon
13 Feb 2009, 0415 hrs IST

PANAJI: The keel for India's first indigenous aircraft carrier also known as the air defence ship (ADS) will be laid shortly at Cochin shipyard,
Kerala, said admiral Sureesh Mehta, chief of naval staff.

Speaking at a ceremony in Goa on Thursday, where the Indian Navy took into possession Mhadei', a sail-powered yacht that will be used for solo circumnavigation, Mehta said that the ADS should accommodate 20-odd aircraft.

-

Well I always thought the construction on the first IAC/ADS already started, but apparently not - the Keel will be laid soon. But the good news for the idegenious platform would be tht the aircraft used would also be indegenious in the form of about Naval LCA variants and ALH, it will probably also use the Mig-29Ks & the Ka-31s as well

EDIT:
Launch date is projected at Oct'10 as the construction in terms of modular model is started in terms of fabrication of hull blocks

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...rier_to_be_built_soon/articleshow/4120905.cms

 

[Feanor]

It's definetly using the MiG-29K, as India expanded on their original order of 19 by another ~30, do you have info about navalized LCA development?

 

[funtz]

It's definetly using the MiG-29K, as India expanded on their original order of 19 by another ~30, do you have info about navalized LCA development?

Livefist, mr. Shiv Aroors blog, from last year.

Monday, February 18, 2008
Bumped into Commodore (retd) C.D. Balaji, project director LCA (Navy) this morning at Def Expo's DRDO pavilion. He says that while the fore and aft duselage assemblies of the Naval LCA are almost complete, the mid section of the aircraft will take at least till the the beginning of 2008.

Final integration and fly-out of the first prototype won't happen before late 2009 at an optimistic estimate. Cmde Balaji says there is a huge amount of work ahead on structural reinforcement of the undercarriage, the tail-hook assembly and the landing gear assembly itself.

The programme team is currently waiting for Navy and Cochin Shipyards to freeze the deck design and coordinates of the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC).

Once that happens, Goa Shipyards will execute its contract to build a shore-based ski-jump and arrester wire landing platform at Dabolim airport in Goa, where flight tests and pilot training will be conducted. Construction of the landing platform is likely to begin only sometime next year.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/02/lca-navy-update.html

AeroIndia 2009: LCA programme over the hump - 2nd gen to 4+, says ADA director, Dr PS Subramanyam news
06 February 2009

What are the derivatives of LCA?

Seeing the performance of the Technology Demonstrators the Indian Navy and air force have now gained confidence in the aircraft – a confidence that they can move on to higher derivatives of the aircraft.

First, in March 2003, the Navy came forward with an order for a naval variant of the aircraft and decided to fund it.

Subsequently, the air force, realising that there was inadequacy of thrust in the aircraft, asked for a higher derivative of the aircraft with a new engine in the 90 tonnes class. This will be a Mark 2 version of the aircraft and will boast of new electronic warfare tools, reduced weight and improved performance.

The navy has also asked for a Mark 2 variant which will use a very small distance for take off and landing from an aircraft carrier. It will land with an arrestor hook. So, almost four new derivatives are planned – the air force and naval variants, the air force fighter trainer,the navy fighter trainer and Mk 2 versions of these.

This shows the confidence with which the user is placing orders for these derivatives.

Another very important point is that the users are funding the development of these derivatives. This shows we now have a lot of business, which is taking place with user participation.

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20090206_lca_programme.html

DATE:12/02/09
SOURCE:Flight International

AERO INDIA: India unveils plans for LCA 'Mark 2'
By Siva Govindasamy


A naval version of the LCA will fly within a year, although this version of the aircraft still faces numerous challenges, says Baweja.

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...india-india-unveils-plans-for-lca-mark-2.html

 

[dragonfire]

I saw a model of the Indegenious Aircraft Carrier and it had a crane next to island, does the Admiral Kuznetsov have such a crane, the two looked so similar like clones, also i was wondering if Kuznetsov featured any AEW&C aircraft -apart from the KA-31 (if at all)

Also wanted to know why IN has opted for the Mig-29 K while the russians and Chinese (for the proposed AC if any - pls not for argument) have opted for the Su-33. Keeping in mind the Kuznetsov and the IAC will be having almost the same displacement and even the Gorshkov/Vikramaditya

 

[funtz]

India’s Quest For An Indigenous Aircraft Carrier
By Admiral Arun Prakash, PVSM, AVSM, VrC, VSM

By now the IN was seriously examining the Russians offer of their 1980s vintage helicopter/VTOL carrier Admiral Gorshkov, and a choice had to be made of a suitable aircraft. The obvious options were the Su-33 (a derivative of the Su-27K selected for operation from the 67,500 ton carrier, Kuznetsov), and the Mig-29K.

An evaluation revealed that both aircraft would meet our operational requirements. The Su-33, though more capable, being dimensionally larger would not only not fit in the smaller hangar of the 44,500 ton Gorshkov, but would have marginal wing-tip clearances from the island structure during deck launch.

It was, therefore, decided that the Mig-29K would equip the Gorshkov, to be renamed INS Vikramaditya, once it entered Indian service.

The downstream impact of this decision was instantly felt by the ADS programme, and a fresh design exercise was initiated to assess the implications of MiG-29K STOBAR operations on the ADS design.

According to the planners, the ship’s basic complement would be a squadron each of MiG-29s and assorted helicopters. The option of operating the upgraded Sea Harriers was also catered for, till the LCA (Navy) received its full operational clearance. The workshops, magazines, deck and lift configurations as well as crew spaces had to be re-worked.

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/2008/05/india’s-quest-for-an-indigenous-aircraft-carrier.html

 

[A.Mookerjee]

I did not know, that the third Aircraft Carrier was going to be a 70,000 tonnes behemoth. I am aware of the INS Vikramaditya, and the indegenous second Aircraft Carrier being built by the Kochi shipyard. How many shipyards does the United States possess?

 

[funtz]

I did not know, that the third Aircraft Carrier was going to be a 70,000 tonnes behemoth. I am aware of the INS Vikramaditya, and the indegenous second Aircraft Carrier being built by the Kochi shipyard. How many shipyards does the United States possess?

Its not going to be of that displacement.
I don't think big carriers for strike missions is what the navy has in mind or will have in mind for the coming few decades.

The third ship in the class if it is constructed will be an evolution of the first two designs, instead of being a completely new one.

However, that is a long time away, so who knows

Google: United states shipyards

 

[kay_man]

I saw a model of the Indegenious Aircraft Carrier and it had a crane next to island, does the Admiral Kuznetsov have such a crane, the two looked so similar like clones, also i was wondering if Kuznetsov featured any AEW&C aircraft -apart from the KA-31 (if at all)

Also wanted to know why IN has opted for the Mig-29 K while the russians and Chinese (for the proposed AC if any - pls not for argument) have opted for the Su-33. Keeping in mind the Kuznetsov and the IAC will be having almost the same displacement and even the Gorshkov/Vikramaditya

the mig-29 is much more evolved and sophisticated than the su-33.
however the su-33 has TVC right? does the TVC help in carrier operation?
can some one shed some light on this.

 

[dragonfire]

I did not know, that the third Aircraft Carrier was going to be a 70,000 tonnes behemoth. I am aware of the INS Vikramaditya, and the indegenous second Aircraft Carrier being built by the Kochi shipyard. How many shipyards does the United States possess?

Its not going to be of that displacement.
I don't think big carriers for strike missions is what the navy has in mind or will have in mind for the coming few decades.

The third ship in the class if it is constructed will be an evolution of the first two designs, instead of being a completely new one.

However, that is a long time away, so who knows

Actualy there are plans for only two Indegenious Aircraft Carriers as the INS Vikramaditya is the former russian AC Admiral Gorshkov, even though the plans is for having three ACs with atleast two operational at any point in time (with the third one probably in refit.maint etc) only two will be made in India as per current plans.

The first IAC is being built in Cochin Shipyard as we speak and the keel laying ceremony will be soon conducted this year (however construction of about 400 modules out of about 900 would be over by then).

The announced plans for the second IAC is in the range of 65000 - 70000 tons displacement, which when considered with the Ski Jump design and the design of the currently constructed IAC will be a clone of the Russian AC Kuznetsov

There are no announced plans for a third IAC and incase you need links please refer earlier posts in this thread or google it

 

[funtz]

Actualy there are plans for only two Indegenious Aircraft Carriers as the INS Vikramaditya is the former russian AC Admiral Gorshkov, even though the plans is for having three ACs with at least two operational at any point in time (with the third one probably in refit. maint etc) only two will be made in India as per current plans.

The first IAC is being built in Cochin Shipyard as we speak and the keel laying ceremony will be soon conducted this year (however construction of about 400 modules out of about 900 would be over by then).

The announced plans for the second IAC is in the range of 65000 - 70000 tons displacement, which when considered with the Ski Jump design and the design of the currently constructed IAC will be a clone of the Russian AC Kuznetsov

There are no announced plans for a third IAC and incase you need links please refer earlier posts in this thread or google it

We will have at least two CBGs, supported by long-range fighters and reconnaissance aircraft, modern destroyers and frigates for sea control, apart from submarines and coastal defence elements for sea denial," said Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta, in an exclusive interview to TOI.

The Navy chief, however, is not too much worried. "We are monitoring IAC's progress. It should not be delayed beyond 2012. The second IAC is already on the drawing board. At least three IACs are planned," he said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...honour_Gorshkov_deal_/articleshow/2586598.cms

So, :

And there are no credible (or any) reports which quote anyone from the MoD, Indian Navy, or the shipyard which state the size of the second carrier in the region of 60,000T, all the three IACs are supposed to come of the same shipyard, of the same class, identical in size with modifications in design as it matures.

The third IAC is planned to replace the Vikramaditya/ex-Gorshkov,
which was to be a temporary solution filling the gaps (first letting the old carrier retire, then complementing the IACs till all three were operational) between 2007-2020-25, till it turned into the nightmare it is today.

 

[tonyget]

Again, Russia demand $700 mn more for Gorshkov

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8355

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[funtz]

Any Russian news reports of this?

Some typos on the report.

MoD and IN was trying to bring the price escalation down to less than 500 million dollars, by rising the quoted price to 700 million it is unlikely that the Gorshkov will be in service anytime soon.

I think this would be the final nail, IN can not get more funds from the government that has already alloted a lot to other programs, the current carrier can not keep on in service, so it looks like till the IAC comes into service, the naval air arm will not take off from a AC.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Any Russian news reports of this?

Some typos on the report.

MoD and IN was trying to bring the price escalation down to less than 500 million dollars, by rising the quoted price to 700 million it is unlikely that the Gorshkov will be in service anytime soon.

I think this would be the final nail, IN can not get more funds from the government that has already alloted a lot to other programs, the current carrier can not keep on in service, so it looks like till the IAC comes into service, the naval air arm will not take off from a AC.

I got the news right here. The current cost is 2.9 billion after taking the addition 700 mil price hike in mind. The budget allocated for CVN-76 Ronald Reagan was 4.3 billion, just to give you a perspective. There is no way that kind of money is justified for a second hand carrier. Unfortunately, Russians have a nasty habit of milking their clients like China and India down to the last cent.

On second thought, this is quite a good scheme the Russians have. If India keeps forking up the money, they will keep on milking until the delivery date. Of course, "accidents" can happen that push the delivery date back, thus more milking. If India decided it has had enough and cut its losses, then Russians could simply use the ship themselves, refitted with Indian money. I'm a bit cynical when it comes to Russian business behaviours, so feel free to disagree.

--------------------------------------------------------

Link: http://www.zeenews.com/nation/2009-02-20/509407news.html

"Russia demand $700 mn more for Gorshkov

New Delhi, Feb 20: India's efforts to induct Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier into its fleet took another hit with Russia seeking an additional USD 700 million from India for the repair and refit works it is carrying out in Sevmash Shipyard.

The Russian decision to seek USD 700 million dollars was conveyed to India on February 10 during the bilateral meeting to re-negotiate the Russian demand for additional payment for the 44,500-tonne warship, Defence Ministry officials said today.

The Sevmash Shipyard was also stressing on an immediate release of USD 190 million for continuing the repair work, which had slowed down due to the fresh price negotiations.

This USD 700 billion demand was over and above the additional Rs 1.2 billion the Russians were already demanding for the warship bought by India in 2004 for USD 974 billion.

New Delhi was informed by a Russian delegation that the Russian President would agree on a final price of USD 2.9 billion, the officials said."

 

[funtz]

I got the news right here. The current cost is 2.9 billion after taking the addition 700 mil price hike in mind.

The budget allocated for CVN-76 Ronald Reagan was 4.3 billion, just to give you a perspective. There is no way that kind of money is justified for a second hand carrier.

Unfortunately, Russians have a nasty habit of milking their clients like China and India down to the last cent.

On second thought, this is quite a good scheme the Russians have. If India keeps forking up the money, they will keep on milking until the delivery date.

Of course, "accidents" can happen that push the delivery date back, thus more milking. If India decided it has had enough and cut its losses, then Russians could simply use the ship themselves, refitted with Indian money.

I'm a bit cynical when it comes to Russian business behaviours, so feel free to disagree.

--------------------------------------------------------

Link: http://www.zeenews.com/nation/2009-02-20/509407news.html

"Russia demand $700 mn more for Gorshkov

Its a Indian news source and most of the news reports i have seen have not quoted a official in person.

Just like the reports about the Kitty Hawk deal, that is the problem.

Till a quote is confirmed its all guess work.

Well it is what it is, till now the Gorshkov was supposed to fill in a Gap in the future acquisitions.

The Current carrier was to retire around 2007-2008, the Gorshkov was to fill the role of a carrier and training tool for the two planned Indigenous Aircraft Carriers (IAC), INS Vikrant (2012 commissioning now delayed.) and INS Viraat(2017 commissioning now delayed).

It (Vikramaditya/ex-Gorskov) was to be replaced eventually by the third IAC (which could be named INS Vishal as Vikrant, Viraat and Vishal are the different names for Huge, Large & big in Hindi) the commissioning date was probably 2022.

Which would have been the end of the current IAC project without facing a situation where the aircraft carrier operation & training capability was not lost or reduced for the future fleet.

The whole plan rested upon the Gorshkov Aircraft Carrier mod. being affordable (as it as in the original government to government agreement) and on time. (it is neither).

That is the reason that no money has been released since the delay and price escalation came into the picture.

Its like regretting a relationship after the make up comes off )

 

[tphuang]

Actualy there are plans for only two Indegenious Aircraft Carriers as the INS Vikramaditya is the former russian AC Admiral Gorshkov, even though the plans is for having three ACs with atleast two operational at any point in time (with the third one probably in refit.maint etc) only two will be made in India as per current plans.

The first IAC is being built in Cochin Shipyard as we speak and the keel laying ceremony will be soon conducted this year (however construction of about 400 modules out of about 900 would be over by then).

The announced plans for the second IAC is in the range of 65000 - 70000 tons displacement, which when considered with the Ski Jump design and the design of the currently constructed IAC will be a clone of the Russian AC Kuznetsov

There are no announced plans for a third IAC and incase you need links please refer earlier posts in this thread or google it

if they want to do a clone of kuznetsov, don't they need blueprints or something like that first?

New Delhi was informed by a Russian delegation that the Russian President would agree on a final price of USD 2.9 billion, the officials said."
1 Day Ago 06:13 AM

pretty outrageous for a refitted carrier.

 

[dragonfire]

if they want to do a clone of kuznetsov, don't they need blueprints or something like that first?

India's indegenious naval programs always had the support of Russia, be it the IAC program or the ATV program (am pretty sure when it comes out it will look like a Schuka B/Akula sub - only perhaps smaller) or the co-produced BrahMos Missile program, am sure there were plenty of techinical inputs including designs and blueprints shared, am also sure tht the basic structural design would be as similar to the kuznetsov as possible yet a lot of indian variations would be there also wrt to various sensors etc

pretty outrageous for a refitted carrier.

I second that - motion passed

 

[harryriedl]

if they want to do a clone of kuznetsov, don't they need blueprints or something like that first?



pretty outrageous for a refitted carrier.

the problem is if the Russian don't compromise over the huge price what would India possibly do they can dump Gorskov and hope the IAC comes before Hermes falls apart (a 50 year plus carrier built with questionable steel they reused lots of war built steel of lower quality). Or pay up and hope for the best. lease a flat top from another nation to keep the crews trained (with less than 10 active sea harriers it wouldn't need to be big). Or make do with a gap of a few years without a carrier until replacements arrive

 

[SkolZkiy]

Guys remember that all these rumours about huge price and other aspects are taken only from some India's newspapers =) noone of the officials approved anything of this =)
It is only said that Russia asked more but how much more nobody really knows =)