Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

[tphuang]

Well now an Indian sub was allegedly caught hacking Chinese warships in Al-Mandab Strait in the Indian ocean near the gulf of Aden. The indian press is reporting a report in the Chinese publication South China Morning Post

http://www.rediff.com/news/2009/feb/04india-china-face-off-in-the-indian-ocean.htm
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February 04, 2009 12:21 IST
Last Updated: February 04, 2009 12:22 IST
In the first military stand-off between the two Asian giants since 1986, an Indian submarine and two Chinese warships came close to a confrontation in the Bab Al-Mandab Strait, but the situation was resolved when the submarine left the site, the South China Morning Post reported on Wednesday.

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How would the ships have forced the submarine to surface i dont understand though, unless there was some aggressive attack tactic employed by the warships - any ideas ?

yeah, I wouldn't trust in SCMP for its accuracy, but the part about Indian Sub trailing Chinese fleet is undoubtedly true. And I'm sure if the fleet was accompanied by a 093 as I expected, then the Indian sub would've been detected too. I'm sure a LA sub was near by too.

 

[Todjaeger]

yeah, I wouldn't trust in SCMP for its accuracy, but the part about Indian Sub trailing Chinese fleet is undoubtedly true. And I'm sure if the fleet was accompanied by a 093 as I expected, then the Indian sub would've been detected too. I'm sure a LA sub was near by too.

Or a Virginia, or maybe even a Seawolf... It would be pretty interesting if there was a real conga line with a Trafalgar, Rubis and Akula present too...

Seriously though, I would imagine in such a situation if the PRC skimmers switched to heavy active pinging, then the Indian sub would most likely start to heading away from the Chinese vessels. It also becomes a question of just how closely the sub(s) followed the skimmers.

-Cheers

 

[dragonfire]

yeah, I wouldn't trust in SCMP for its accuracy, but the part about Indian Sub trailing Chinese fleet is undoubtedly true. And I'm sure if the fleet was accompanied by a 093 as I expected, then the Indian sub would've been detected too. I'm sure a LA sub was near by too.

Or a Virginia, or maybe even a Seawolf... It would be pretty interesting if there was a real conga line with a Trafalgar, Rubis and Akula present too...

Seriously though, I would imagine in such a situation if the PRC skimmers switched to heavy active pinging, then the Indian sub would most likely start to heading away from the Chinese vessels. It also becomes a question of just how closely the sub(s) followed the skimmers.

-Cheers

How could a warship make a submarine surface, are there any tactics to do this, i mean without actualy launching torpedos or depth charges (are they even in use today?), wht kind of manovers would make this happen - am very curious to know

 

[Todjaeger]

How could a warship make a submarine surface, are there any tactics to do this, i mean without actualy launching torpedos or depth charges (are they even in use today?), wht kind of manovers would make this happen - am very curious to know

I will check with friend of mine, and ex-nuke boat crewman. AFAIK there is no real way to force a sub to surface, unless operating in shallow or restricted waters...

As for the use of torpedoes, depth bombs/charges, etc the use of which in International waters would constitute an act of war. IMO not something advisable for either, and most likely therefore the employment of weaponry would not be done lightly.

-Cheers

 

[dragonfire]

I will check with friend of mine, and ex-nuke boat crewman. AFAIK there is no real way to force a sub to surface, unless operating in shallow or restricted waters...

As for the use of torpedoes, depth bombs/charges, etc the use of which in International waters would constitute an act of war. IMO not something advisable for either, and most likely therefore the employment of weaponry would not be done lightly.

-Cheers

The report said that an Anti-Sub Heli was launched from one of the chinese vessels, is there any way (withouting surfacing or using the periscope) a submarine can identify enemy air borne assets overhead or target them with some kind of weaponry

Tnks for your inputs

 

[gf0012-aust]

The report said that an Anti-Sub Heli was launched from one of the chinese vessels, is there any way (withouting surfacing or using the periscope) a submarine can identify enemy air borne assets overhead or target them with some kind of weaponry

Tnks for your inputs

Yes, there are any numbers of ways to ident incoming aircraft - the favourite was the soviet "bear" as it was so easy to detect.

it is also possible to detect when the other side is arming, but thats not going to get much play in here.

submariners never talk about capability - even those I know who have been inop for over 20 years are very selective about who and what they chat to and about.

nobody who could will discuss sub tactical issues in here

 

[dragonfire]

I also wanted to know abt the other way around how can an airborne ASW asset on a stand by basis (not connected to any friendly assets in the vicinity ) identify, track and target a submerged submarine on its own, do they drop some sonar devices or something

 

[Todjaeger]

The report said that an Anti-Sub Heli was launched from one of the chinese vessels, is there any way (withouting surfacing or using the periscope) a submarine can identify enemy air borne assets overhead or target them with some kind of weaponry

Tnks for your inputs

I am not really aware of any way to target an airborne ASW asset from a sub. At least not without surfacing. A couple of sub designs, the Soviet/Russian Akula- and Kilo-class and the German/Israeli Dolphin-class have SAM systems. The system used aboard the Israeli SSKs, the Triton system is intended to be fired while the sub is submerged. I do not know about the ones aboard the Kilo and Akulas, as it is a navalised version of the SA-7 or -14 Grail (SA-5-N or SA-8-N Strela).

As for being able to at least detect the presence of airborne ASW, I would expect that is quite possible. Remember what the primary sensors of an airborne ASW are, namely MAD, dipping sonar and sonobuoys. The acoustics of actively pinging sonobuoys should be an immediate indication that some airborne asset is present, even if it does not provide indication as to what type...

-Cheers

 

[aaaditya]

News Update (it's posted here bcauz the other IN thread is locked)

A feature on the Indian Navy will be aired on the discovery channel from feb 2nd at 9PM (IST) onwards - maybe the coverage will be available across the subcontinent. I Think the name of the show is Future Navy or some such thing..

the feature on the indian navy is not being aired on the discovery channel ,but is being aired on the national geographic channel.

 

[dragonfire]

the feature on the indian navy is not being aired on the discovery channel ,but is being aired on the national geographic channel.

Yeah am so sory about tht ppl, also it is not a show on the Navy rather a reality show on how 5 contenders take part in various events in IN assets to win a chance to travel on a IN vessel in international waters

The name of the show is Mission Navy and the second episode will air on Monday -9th Feb 09, the first episode showed how the 5 finalists were selected, which involved pressure tests in a hyperbaric chamber, running on hands and legs, running backwards, team excercises involving logical obstacles etc, which are all part of the IN's selection process

I recently read n article apparently the winner of the show was on the ship i think INS Delhi or Mysore which took part in the Anti - Pirate mission near Somalia

 

[Bang-Bang]

if we read whole article, it says Submarine was trailing them since they entered Indian Ocean.

(SELF Edited)

please take a look at this map

that brings up a lot of questions.

Did Submarine trailed undetected for thousands of miles?

if Chinese detected the submarine near Yemen, how did they even know it was trailing them from Malacca?

How is it possible to force a submarine to surface? without using depth charges or torpedoes.

And when they did find them, they dispatched a "ASW chopper with torpedos ready"

its a big thing for PLAN that they got themselves tailed that far and came to know it only when the sub surfaced.

:vamp Think Tanks Please Reply :vamp

 

[dragonfire]

How is it possible to force a submarine to surface? without using depth charges or torpedoes.

And when they did find them, they dispatched a "ASW chopper with torpedos ready"

Pl read the posts above - we are already discussing the same

as per article and another one i read today in the papers the sub allegedly tried to disrupt the sonar scanning by the PLAN vessels which is when the sub was detected and then they started evasive/aggresive movement and launched the heli

 

[Bang-Bang]

Pl read the posts above - we are already discussing the same

as per article and another one i read today in the papers the sub allegedly tried to disrupt the sonar scanning by the PLAN vessels which is when the sub was detected and then they started evasive/aggresive movement and launched the heli

ok sir i got it , so i will follow the thread to get answer of my queries . but sir you didnt answer my full post :unknown ....


if IN sub chase the PLAN new warships , so they must got the SIGN & ELEC Waves of them ??? Correct me if am wrong

 

[dragonfire]

ok sir i got it , so i will follow the thread to get answer of my queries . but sir you didnt answer my full post :unknown ....
If IN sub chase the PLAN new warships , so they must got the SIGN & ELEC Waves of them ??? Correct me if am wrong

that brings up a lot of questions.
Did Submarine trailed undetected for thousands of miles?
if Chinese detected the submarine near Yemen, how did they even know it was trailing them from Malacca?

Hi Bang Bang - pls no need to use "sir" etc as long as we are cordial to each other; I have posted here an article from TOI

Indian sub stalked China warships?
5 Feb 2009, 0153 hrs IST, TNN
NEW DELHI: Jostling for the same strategic space in Indian Ocean Region (IOR), a cat-and-mouse game reminiscent of the tussle between US and Soviet navies during the Cold War is taking place between India and China in full earnest.

Indian submarines, maritime reconnaissance aircraft and warships closely tracked, "buzzed'' and photographed two Chinese destroyers and a supply ship making their way to the Gulf of Aden off Somalia recently for anti-piracy patrols.

The Link http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Indian_sub_stalked_China_warships/articleshow/4075792.cms

This article says that the Chinese vessels were 'buzzed' several times by Indian assets. This could be a reality and the vessels would have recorded these overhead flights and it would have happened right from the time the chinese vessels entered the Indian Ocean through Malacca Straits. The submarine would have followed silently the group but would have engaged in trying to block the sonar only near yemen.

Also my first article talks of each navy's asset trying to figure out the gaps in Sonar etc am assuming the opportunity of trying to figure out the electronic signature of sorts of the new PLAN assets would be why IN would have sent the sub and other surveilance assets in the first place

I am posting below the complete article from SCMP (only beacuse one has to create a user login to get the complete article) which is the primary source.

Chinese navy sees off Indian sub
Chow Chung-yan
Feb 04, 2009

Chinese warships sent to fight piracy in waters off Somalia were stalked by an Indian attack submarine and the two sides became locked in a tense standoff for at least half an hour, mainland media reported yesterday.After rounds of manoeuvring during which both sides tried to test for weaknesses in the other's sonar system, the two Chinese warships managed to force the Indian submarine to surface. The Indian vessel left without further confrontation.

The incident was reported by Qingdao Chenbao yesterday and was widely carried by major mainland websites such as Sina.com and QQ. Both Beijing and New Delhi were silent about the matter. This is the first reported military standoff between China and India since a bitter border war in 1962.

The incident took place on January 15 in waters near the Bab Al-Mandab Strait, which separates Yemen and Djibouti, at the western end of the Gulf of Aden. The Chinese destroyers had picked up an unidentified submarine on their sonar, the report said.

The Chinese navy soon identified it as a 70-metre-long vessel armed with 20 torpedoes. Although the report did not directly specify the model, it provided a file photo of a Kilo-class submarine belonging to the Indian navy, which fit the description. The submarine tried to evade the Chinese warships by diving deeper. But the warships continued the chase. The report said the Chinese ships sent an anti-submarine helicopter to help track the submarine, which had tried to jam the Chinese warships' sonar system. But the two destroyers eventually cornered the submarine and forced it to surface. The report said the submarine had been trailing the Chinese ships since they had entered the Indian Ocean on the way to Somalia. It said that at one point the Chinese commander even ordered the helicopter to have its anti-submarine torpedoes ready. The Indian submarine is believed to have been collecting electronic signals and sonar data from the Chinese warships. Such information would be crucial in naval conflicts.

The two destroyers China sent to Somalia are among its most advanced warships. One of the destroyers, Haikou, was commissioned in 2005. It is rare for mainland media to report such a close encounter between the Chinese navy and foreign warships. Although deemed a provocative and unfriendly gesture, it was not unusual for one country to send submarines to collect other navies' information. In 2006, a Chinese submarine was detected stalking the US aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk near the Japanese island of Okinawa. The Chinese submarine eventually surfaced close to the US battle group.

 

[dragonfire]

IN is dening any such activity, I have posted one link below which suggests snooping activity as the chinese would have passed from straits of malacca towards gulf of aden, there is another one which denied any IN sub having surfaced near the gulf of aden

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Story...eadline=No+snooping+on+Chinese+warships:+Navy

http://www.hindu.com/2009/02/05/stories/2009020557900100.htm

 

[Todjaeger]

Hi Bang Bang - pls no need to use "sir" etc as long as we are cordial to each other; I have posted here an article from TOI



The Link http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Indian_sub_stalked_China_warships/articleshow/4075792.cms

This article says that the Chinese vessels were 'buzzed' several times by Indian assets. This could be a reality and the vessels would have recorded these overhead flights and it would have happened right from the time the chinese vessels entered the Indian Ocean through Malacca Straits. The submarine would have followed silently the group but would have engaged in trying to block the sonar only near yemen.

Also my first article talks of each navy's asset trying to figure out the gaps in Sonar etc am assuming the opportunity of trying to figure out the electronic signature of sorts of the new PLAN assets would be why IN would have sent the sub and other surveilance assets in the first place

I am posting below the complete article from SCMP (only beacuse one has to create a user login to get the complete article) which is the primary source.

It is also quite possible that India is seeking to build up an acoustic library. Depending on the quality of the sensors, as well as the computer system and algorithms used, it is possible to ID a specific class, or even individual vessel, off the various machine noises the vessel emits.

AFAIK the best harvesters for this sort of data are subs. The only thing which does not make sense to me, is the Indian sub attempting to "disrupt" the Chinese sonar. The only methods I am aware of doing so, would be for the Indian sub to start emitting itself, or dropping a noise-maker. Either of which would then reveal the sub's presence, if not exact location.

-Cheers

 

[gf0012-aust]

It is also quite possible that India is seeking to build up an acoustic library. Depending on the quality of the sensors, as well as the computer system and algorithms used, it is possible to ID a specific class, or even individual vessel, off the various machine noises the vessel emits.

the place is starting to get populated - so I would be very very surprised if the IN does not have a philosophy to start seeding. after all, some very significant issues were raised post Tsunami

AFAIK the best harvesters for this sort of data are subs. The only thing which does not make sense to me, is the Indian sub attempting to "disrupt" the Chinese sonar. The only methods I am aware of doing so, would be for the Indian sub to start emitting itself, or dropping a noise-maker. Either of which would then reveal the sub's presence, if not exact location.

-Cheers

it makes no sense at all - I'd suggest an enthusiastic but technically illiterate journalist is at work.....

 

[Type59]

Does each Kilo submarine have its own individual acoustic signiture or all make the same noise?

Lets look at what we concretely know; China has the same kilo's as the Indians have, so we should be 100% correct in saying they have trained against similiar vessels.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Does each Kilo submarine have its own individual acoustic signiture or all make the same noise?

Lets look at what we concretely know; China has the same kilo's as the Indians have, so we should be 100% correct in saying they have trained against similiar vessels.

each sub is unique - each manufacturer leaves "tells" as well.

an indian kilo is not the same as a PLAN kilo

 

[tphuang]

Hi Bang Bang - pls no need to use "sir" etc as long as we are cordial to each other; I have posted here an article from TOI



The Link http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Indian_sub_stalked_China_warships/articleshow/4075792.cms

This article says that the Chinese vessels were 'buzzed' several times by Indian assets. This could be a reality and the vessels would have recorded these overhead flights and it would have happened right from the time the chinese vessels entered the Indian Ocean through Malacca Straits. The submarine would have followed silently the group but would have engaged in trying to block the sonar only near yemen.

Also my first article talks of each navy's asset trying to figure out the gaps in Sonar etc am assuming the opportunity of trying to figure out the electronic signature of sorts of the new PLAN assets would be why IN would have sent the sub and other surveilance assets in the first place

I am posting below the complete article from SCMP (only beacuse one has to create a user login to get the complete article) which is the primary source.

honestly, the writer just sounds like he has no clue what he is talking about. I'm sure something happened, but only the people on the ships would know exactly what that is.

Lets look at what we concretely know; China has the same kilo's as the Indians have, so we should be 100% correct in saying they have trained against similiar vessels.

The Chinese ones should be of a more advanced variant.