Indian Military Aviation; News, Updates & Discussions

[Ananda]

India’s fifth-gen fighter AMCA hits new milestone as Rajnath approves its programme execution model

Such projects used to be handed over directly to HAL for manufacturing, without the state-owned firm having to compete with others

indianexpress.com

When I read this, I always wonder why after all this year India still have faith with HAL ? They are late on delivering Tejas Mk1, late with Mk 1A then will definetely late again with Tejas Mk2.

They should let Tata group take over the project. Then again as coming from a country that also keep pushing SOE on strategic projects (no matter how many times those SOE screew up), I also understand why India Administration keep pushing HAL as projects implementor.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

India’s fifth-gen fighter AMCA hits new milestone as Rajnath approves its programme execution model

Such projects used to be handed over directly to HAL for manufacturing, without the state-owned firm having to compete with others

indianexpress.com

When I read this, I always wonder why after all this year India still have faith with HAL ? They are late on delivering Tejas Mk1, late with Mk 1A then will definetely late again with Tejas Mk2.

They should let Tata group take over the project. Then again as coming from a country that also keep pushing SOE on strategic projects (no matter how many times those SOE screew up), I also understand why India Administration keep pushing HAL as projects implementor.

I'm not defending HAL but its head said that they didn't deliver LCAs bcoz of GE414 engine undelivered. IAF countered that they would have kept the engine-less airframe in storage till engine arrived. HAL didn't seem keen on delivering incomplete jet.
Another observaion is that HAL is not as big as it should be to handle everything - LCA, LCH, ALH, trainer, SU-30 MKI, Jaguar, MiG-29, Mirage-2000, etc.

Our private business tycoons like Tata, Ambani were very keen on bagging deal to make F-16/18 while IAF rejected them. They won't do any R&D even jointly. There are some social, political reasons also. That's why there is an atmosphere of caution for these quick profit oriented "baniya" tycoons.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

Some new poor quality images of TEDBF have emerged.
It looks like modified Rafale.
Even after IN indicating 5gen TEDBF, AFAIK there is no official response from ADA on it.

 

[Ananda]

private business tycoons like Tata, Ambani were very keen on bagging deal to make F-16/18 while IAF rejected them. They won't do any R&D even jointly. There are some social, political reasons also. That's why there is an atmosphere of caution for these quick profit oriented "baniya" tycoons.

All Private Sectors are having traders mentality first, even the ones that become Industrialist. This especially true in most Global South. However this also means they have mostly better project management mentality then most State Owned Enterprise (SOE).

The bureacrats off course prefer to give projects to SOE that they can control more, and politically always provide better image that government projects goes to their owned business. However that's what makes many SOE throughout Global South have complacent mentality. Whatever their performance are, they will get the job/projects are.

Aerospace industry is very capital and tech incentive. Tata Group already wiling to invest on that industry. Something that only few countries that have private sectors willing to venture in that area. In my opinion India should give then manufacturing projects to compete with HAL. The RnD mostly done through DRDO, and let not all projects goes to HAL. Complacent mentality will only be the results if HAL being guarantee to get most projects. That's already happening in many SOE throughout Asia Global South nations.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

All Private Sectors are having traders mentality first, even the ones that become Industrialist. This especially true in most Global South. However this also means they have mostly better project management mentality then most State Owned Enterprise (SOE).

The bureacrats off course prefer to give projects to SOE that they can control more, and politically always provide better image that government projects goes to their owned business. However that's what makes many SOE throughout Global South have complacent mentality. Whatever their performance are, they will get the job/projects are.

Aerospace industry is very capital and tech incentive. Tata Group already wiling to invest on that industry. Something that only few countries that have private sectors willing to venture in that area. In my opinion India should give then manufacturing projects to compete with HAL. The RnD mostly done through DRDO, and let not all projects goes to HAL. Complacent mentality will only be the results if HAL being guarantee to get most projects. That's already happening in many SOE throughout Asia Global South nations.

We should not bluntly equate trader's profit mentality with project management skill, bcoz greed for profit can result in corruption, unethical & dangerous shortcuts on the name cost cutting, etc. We've seen that with Boeing. & past companies also.
If someone's project management is o damn good then R&D should not be a problem, bcoz it is a calculated risk. at some point in future it'll pay off by huge amount.
The private sector also needs to understand that defence is about national security, not profit security & try to sell consumer goods, capture market.
Patriotism is more important then profit, otherwise even LM, NG, Boeing have got scolding by USAF/GoUSA.
Currently they will be making just some components, not designing a jet. So everything will be fixed finitely, # of jets in IAF, their components, cost, profit margin, etc.
If you look at subsideries of Tata group like TCS, Tata motors, etc then there have been many complains on management & work culture.
Personally, i don't trust either Tata or Ambani, IDK about Adani.
I'm not defending HAL but it is also a fact that it makes everything - fighter jets, transport jet, transport helos, attack helos, trainers, etc. So to handle new projects, they'll need new facilities.

 

[Ananda]

Japan Offers IHI XF9-1 Engine for India’s AMCA Program, GTRE Invited for Technical Review Amid Global Competition - Indian Defence Research Wing

SOURCE: RAUNAK KUNDE / NEWS BEAT / IDRW.ORG In a significant development for India’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program, Japan has offered its advanced IHI XF9-1 low-bypass afterburning turbofan engine for co-development and potential local production, as first reported by Indian...

idrw.org

If this is true, then perhaps this is way out for India to gain domestication of Turbofan production. Not only AMCA but also Tejas Mk2. Honestly I see more potential in Tejas Mk2 then AMCA.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The IHI XF9-1 is much more powerful than the General Electric F414 INS6 engine for the Tejas Mk.2, but it is also much larger. Too large to fit into the Tejas Mk.2.

 

[Ananda]

Agree It could be too big for Tejas MK2, if they already set for Tejas MK2 production will use GE414 class range. Still the prototype for Tejas MK2 also not finished yet. Also seems India looking for same engine for Tejas MK2 and AMCA Safran Proposes Dual Engine Development for India’s Tejas MkII and AMCA Programs - Indian Defence Research Wing, as if both program come to fruition it is going within short time difference.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Agree It could be too big for Tejas MK2, if they already set for Tejas MK2 production will use GE414 class range. Still the prototype for Tejas MK2 also not finished yet. Also seems India looking for same engine for Tejas MK2 and AMCA Safran Proposes Dual Engine Development for India’s Tejas MkII and AMCA Programs - Indian Defence Research Wing, as if both program come to fruition it is going within short time difference.

The XF9-1 has a larger diameter and is almost one meter longer. So it is not just "some modifications" in the fuselage for other cables, tubing and accessory gearbox, but a complete redesign of the Mk.2. That means even more delay for many years.

 

[T.C.P]

The XF9-1 has a larger diameter and is almost one meter longer. So it is not just "some modifications" in the fuselage for other cables, tubing and accessory gearbox, but a complete redesign of the Mk.2. That means even more delay for many years.

Whats a 5 year delay to a porject that has been going on for decades.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Whats a 5 year delay to a porject that has been going on for decades.

Yes, the LCA-program started around 1983-1984, that's why i expect such a huge redesign means a set back of maybe 20 years.

 

[koxinga]

The only real option on the table was the EJ200, which was studied for both MK1 and MK2, and is within the parameters of a F414.

But it is moot point at this stage to throw more money/redesign at the platform.

 

[Ananda]

Tejas MkII Twin-Engine Concept: Could it Replace MRFA Requirement ? - Indian Defence Research Wing

SOURCE: AFI Kuntal Biswas, one of India’s most prominent 3D military system and defense animation experts, has once again captured the imagination of aviation enthusiasts and defense analysts with his latest creation: a twin-engine variant of the Tejas MkII. This conceptual design, powered by...

idrw.org

The image on this article are similar with what @Bhartiya sainik put above.

India urgently seeks source code of Rafale fighter jets from France

Rafale fighter jets are operated from Ambala and Hasimara bases.

www.india.com

This two seems not related, but from Indian forums there're some talks on either Tejas Mk2 being redesign to come to same class as Rafale or AMCA project and Tejas Mk2 being merge.

Perhaps this is why India MinDef now looking around for partner after Kevari engine more or less stuck. Question now is India want to have share IP to whatever engine being choices. Whether RR, Safran, GE or IHI, got a feeling India want to develop engine where the engine partner want to share IP with India.

it is moot point at this stage to throw more money/redesign at the platform.

What if that's what being choose by India, as they want Fighter with engine that both India have control. Rafale despite the talk on the performance on latest skirmish with Pakistan J-10C, seems India quite satisfied with performance. However with reservation on source code denial, what if India choose to build their own Rafale. This Tejas Mk2 twin engine is the 'speculation' on that way.

It is not first time India ditch a program and redesign to another direction. I just have doubt they have both time and budget to work out definite Tejas Mk2 and AMCA at similar close time frame, as it is now.

How Rolls-Royce's AMCA Engine Offer with New 6th-Gen Design and Adaptability to Power other Jets Dwarfs Safran's M88-Based Engine Proposal

India's pursuit of a domestically produced fifth-generation stealth fighter, the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), has reached a critical phase as it weighs competing proposals from the UK's...

defence.in

Tejas Mk2 at this current configuration is 90-95 Kn while according to that article what MinDef looking is 110-130 Kn. This again raise question whether Tejas Mk2 being ditched and goes straight to AMCA, or aspects of Tejas Mk2 being redesigned with aspects of AMCA and make Tejas Mk2 Twin Engine.

 

[Ananda]

Put it in this thread, as seems India and Russia getting closer (again) with Su-57 project. India involve with Su-57 during development stage, left it, and now seems being drown back to the program. For Russia they need India to get economics of scale on the project.

With recent Trump spat toward India, and India seems shruging F-35 (as from what I see in India media and forums, the fear for lack of independence operation wise), Su-57 offer with full access (including source code) can be what India looking for.

 

[Ananda]

https://defence-blog.com/india-may-buy-south-koreas-kf-21-fighter-jet/

Seems India looking for Fighter that open their system architecture and source codes to be integrate with India missiles and systems. They are unhappy Dasault still won't open Rafale Source Code, they are not happy with F-35 potentials, as they will more likely facing similar situation.

Thus asside Russia now they are looking to ROK. How Su-57 or KF-21 going to matter toward Tejas Mk2 and AMCA development, that's going to be interesting to follow.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

Tejas MkII Twin-Engine Concept: Could it Replace MRFA Requirement ? - Indian Defence Research Wing

SOURCE: AFI Kuntal Biswas, one of India’s most prominent 3D military system and defense animation experts, has once again captured the imagination of aviation enthusiasts and defense analysts with his latest creation: a twin-engine variant of the Tejas MkII. This conceptual design, powered by...

idrw.org

The image on this article are similar with what @Bhartiya sainik put above.

India urgently seeks source code of Rafale fighter jets from France

Rafale fighter jets are operated from Ambala and Hasimara bases.

www.india.com

This two seems not related, but from Indian forums there're some talks on either Tejas Mk2 being redesign to come to same class as Rafale or AMCA project and Tejas Mk2 being merge.

Perhaps this is why India MinDef now looking around for partner after Kevari engine more or less stuck. Question now is India want to have share IP to whatever engine being choices. Whether RR, Safran, GE or IHI, got a feeling India want to develop engine where the engine partner want to share IP with India.



What if that's what being choose by India, as they want Fighter with engine that both India have control. Rafale despite the talk on the performance on latest skirmish with Pakistan J-10C, seems India quite satisfied with performance. However with reservation on source code denial, what if India choose to build their own Rafale. This Tejas Mk2 twin engine is the 'speculation' on that way.

It is not first time India ditch a program and redesign to another direction. I just have doubt they have both time and budget to work out definite Tejas Mk2 and AMCA at similar close time frame, as it is now.

How Rolls-Royce's AMCA Engine Offer with New 6th-Gen Design and Adaptability to Power other Jets Dwarfs Safran's M88-Based Engine Proposal

India's pursuit of a domestically produced fifth-generation stealth fighter, the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), has reached a critical phase as it weighs competing proposals from the UK's...

defence.in

Tejas Mk2 at this current configuration is 90-95 Kn while according to that article what MinDef looking is 110-130 Kn. This again raise question whether Tejas Mk2 being ditched and goes straight to AMCA, or aspects of Tejas Mk2 being redesigned with aspects of AMCA and make Tejas Mk2 Twin Engine.

> The images shared by me are of TEDBF, while concept of Tejas Mk2 (MWF) is like a quick, cheaper measure with 1 engine, an inflated LCA. Both config have their +/- points w.r.t. cost, redundancy, thrust, payload, electricity, sensors, etc.

> But from global tech progress PoV, more thrust & electricity will be needed, means for 1 engine jet the engine needs to be very powerful, even better that F-35's F-135 giving 198 KN wet thrust, equivalent to 2x F-414 engines. The exportable F-35 JSF killed the birth of USN TEDBF unless only recently Trump said of making 2E F-35 version calling it F-55. And to add to confusion, the 6gen NGAD, F/A-XX conceptually needs around 270 KN engines, that to 2x, not just 1, for a 45-50 ton MTOW jet with wet ATWR (A/c Thrust to Weight Ratio) = 1.1

> EU nations for their FCAS, GCAP will also need such powerful engines.

> Russia can surprise any day with their 6gen design.

> China making progress with their jets & engines.

> A fighter jet & its engines serve for 40-60 years.

> Why should Indian domestic & JV efforts lag behind in thinking & action, going after 4gen engines technically inadequate in future?

> So when IN needs 5+gen TEDBF & IAF needs 5+gen AMCA then there is no need of 1 engine 4gen IAF jet, huge waste of taxes, scam actually. It can be used just as a TD to expertise on our own canard tech. A 1 engine 4gen Tejas Mk2(MWF) is a dead Unicorn.

> Either AMCA should be navalised like F-35C & J-35 or the delta canrad needs to be pumped up to 5+gen needing engines better than that for AMCA.