Indian Air Force To Buy 126 Multi-Role Planes

[mysterious]

Highsea, you get ahead of yourself way to soon. I was talking with regards to the F-16 production line, hence my words of 'a few more years' (read that correctly?). And my point abt LH-M being desparate wasn't based on F-16s sales to Pakistan but its efforts to get an IAF order in to breathe new life in to the F-16 production.

[Admin edit: We all need to read each other before replying to each other.]

 

[gf0012-aust]

Highsea, you get ahead of yourself way to soon. I was talking with regards to the F-16 production line, hence my words of 'a few more years' (read that correctly?). And my point abt LH-M being desparate wasn't based on F-16s sales to Pakistan but its efforts to get an IAF order in to breathe new life in to the F-16 production.

So the next time you feel like expressing your personal hatred of me in threads; use some other method other than plucking my post's words out of context and changing the meaning of my post to suit your hidden agendas.

Myst, the above is what you originally wrote and which another Mod has edited out. It's not Highsea as it would have come up in the edit log. Wheover has edited it has done so because they thought it was not in the spirit of continued reasoned debate - not because they were "protecting" another Mod.

To be fair, I certainly read your response similarly to what Highsea has, and because of the edit, a 3rd mod has also been of the same opinion.

Maybe you need to revisit the way you type your responses in future so as to avoid any confusuion. btw I don't "hate" you or do I have any hidden agendas - and I don't think Highsea and the 3rd Mod do either. (whoever that was!)

Reverse the roles and see how you would have interpreted it, I think you'll find that it can be interpreted the way that Highsea has seen it.

Be that as it may, there is to be no further debate on the rights/wrongs, justices/injustices on this as it provides no relevance ot comfort to the topic at hand. Case Closed.

 

[srirangan]

Myst,
I don't think India will be interested in those "exclusive, block 70" F16's.
Approving the sale to Pak killed all their chances for the IAF order.

 

[P.A.F]

Sri ur right.
read this guys

http://www.newindpress.com/Newsitems.asp?ID=IEK20050327101220&Title=Southern+News+-+Karnataka&Topic=0

Don't trust US on F-16 offer: Senior retired IAF officers caution Govt
Monday March 28 2005 00:00 IST
BANGALORE: The United States (US) offer to sell F-16s' and F-18s' to India has led to a debate in defence circles across India, but senior retired Indian Air Force (IAF) officers in the aviation capital of the country are not excited.

Retired Air Marshals, who served in key positions in the IAF till recently, caution the Centre to tread cautiously and not fall into the US trap. ``I do not find any logic in the US offer. It is trying to promote an arms race in the region,'' a retired Air Marshal and defence analyst told this website's newspaper.

According to him, the US will never sell F-16s' or F18s' to India and it will keep on dragging the deal for years. ``The US is talking about balance of power in the region by selling F-16s to India and Pakistan. If that is the case, why is it talking about selling F-18s to India? Will that not disturb the balance and contradict US views?'' he questioned.

``We should not be over optimistic about it. To me it is like a fraudulent offer,'' the retired Air Marshal added.

Another expert, Air Marshal (Rtd) P Rajkumar said unless there is some concrete treaty, he would not trust them (US) too much. ``God knows which way they will turn,'' he said.

As the head of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project, Rajkumar had flown the basic variants of F-16s in 1996. He had also headed the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), a DRDO laboratory, which designed and developed LCA.

According to these officers, acquiring US-made jets will open up different spectrum of logistics and maintenance requirements. Training procedure also requires to be slightly reoriented as India has been traditionally been training on Russian and Anglo-French fighters and equipment.

The reason for the US posture, some believe, is that the super power is smelling a big contract as India had asked for an experssion of interest for a jet produced by Lockheed Martin. The IAF is now shopping for 126 multi-role fighters and sought information from different aircraft manufactures.

 

[mysterious]

This article just elaborates what I said in my previous post. IAF should stick to French and Russians.

 

[SABRE]

I just dont understand why IAF is not pushing for much more advance Russian platforms such as Su-30MKI. Sukhois are great ACs & its amazing how IAF has not realy given it much of an importance compared to Mirages or any other (western) ACs.

 

[mysterious]

Well yeah, there a couple of Russian ACs that could replace the Mig-21s and become the mainstay of the IAF but I'm amazed to see how low priority the Russians are getting on this issue. I'm sure Putin is keeping a close eye on the events as they unfold.

 

[kilo_4que]

I just dont understand why IAF is not pushing for much more advance Russian platforms such as Su-30MKI. Sukhois are great ACs & its amazing how IAF has not realy given it much of an importance compared to Mirages or any other (western) ACs.

well i guess that justifies all the more "realism" in the news about F16s and F18s to india.

 

[P.A.F]

i still don't think IAF will go for the American aircrafts. they will and i think they are better off with the french swed or russian platforms.

 

[adsH]

Desperately trying to stay alive? Lol

Pakistan had been asking for these AC for years. Now the US agrees, and it's only because LM is "desperately trying to stay alive". Sheesh. FYI, the F-16 production line has a couple more years of production, even without the new planes. And if the line did shut down, most of the workers would move over to the JSF, F-22, one of the many other projects at LM, or in the worst case, just go to Boeing. 2,000 workers can easily be absorbed in a company the size of LM, even if it just means not replacing workers that are retiring.

I don't think you need to start up any collections for Lockheed just yet. :coffee

the main Problem is if LM didn't start getting orders it would of had to lay off skilled workers which are valuable assets which cannot be utilized in other places. they would of had to lay off people to economize and save money since no more orders were being put through and LM would of wanted to stretch the production out till latest it could.

 

[srirangan]

I just dont understand why IAF is not pushing for much more advance Russian platforms such as Su-30MKI. Sukhois are great ACs & its amazing how IAF has not realy given it much of an importance compared to Mirages or any other (western) ACs.

Uh?
Procuring the MKI's is an ongoing thing. The IAF gets around 18-24 SU-30 MKI's each year.
These 126 are a totally different and have nothing to do with the Su 30 Mki acquisition.

 

[aaaditya]

the mrca requirement is for an aircraft class( lightweight category requiring lesser maintenance and easier to operarate than the hitech twin engined su-30,but able to perform multirole tasks and which could be acquired in large quantities to performance operations in the short and medium ranges while su-30 will handle longer ranges.):coffee

 

[highsea]

the main Problem is if LM didn't start getting orders it would of had to lay off skilled workers...

adsh, maybe you didn't understand my post. Having spent nearly 20 years on the production side for a tier one contractor for both Boeing and LM, I have a pretty good idea what the situation is. As I mentioned, there are sufficient orders now for the Ft. Worth line for at least two more years. If neither of the orders were placed, there would be no lay-offs.

In fact, both Boeing and LM are hiring as many skilled people as they can get right now. A quick visit to their websites will confirm this if you are in doubt. Aerospace is cyclical, and is on an upswing right now. Lockheed has almost 140,000 workers. The people on the F-16 line are machinists, mfg. engineers, toolmakers, assemblers, etc. They can easily be moved around, their skills are generic to any AC program. Lockheed is not going to give up these people to Boeing- they would just move them to another program. This happens all the time.

Natural attrition in the workforce means that Boeing and LM each have to replace about 8,000 to 10,000 of this type of worker each year just to stay even. When cutbacks do happen, all the companies normally do is place a hiring freeze. In the most extreme instances, they offer early retirement incentives to the oldest workers. This allows them to keep the younger workers, and let the older ones retire. Workers are moved around all the time- it's a constant in the trade as people move up in seniority and younger workers are trained in their place. Even after 9/11, which caused a huge downturn, I don't think Boeing laid off any production workers. These are the last guys to go- Boeing and LM protect this part of their workforces jealously- jobs get pulled in-house that are normally contracted out if necessary to keep the workforce intact, as the company knows that downturns are always followed by booms.

I have a friend who is an engineer in Ft. Worth. No one has recieved any warn notices, there has been no talk of cutbacks in the plant. That's just politicians talking.

Now, let's please stick to the topic.

 

[SABRE]

u talk about LH-M coming to a close on F-16s production facility. Well if u both understand good urdu I'll say this " Aaam khao, perh na ginoo" .. if u dont understand Urdu than let me translate "Eat the mangoes, dont count the trees" meaning just be happy ur getting some thing dont worry about how or why you are getting it.
So just be happy that we are getting F-16s, why or how is not our concern. LH-M is a big company & big companies dont go down that easily. Besides there are thousands of F-16s out there, they need MLUs, fixings, re-builings etc. LH-M lines wont shut down as long as there are F-16s out there.

 

[mysterious]

I only talked abt F-16 production line and stuff when the news of LH-M being on its heels to offer F-16s and/or F-18s to IAF came to light. IAF needs 126 multi-role aircraft and that is a good way to keep the F-16 production line running for atleast 5 more years (in addition to the 2 yr worth of production already on LH-M hands). It was in this regard that I said, LH-M wants to extend the life of F-16s production line by more than just a 'few years'.

 

[highsea]

Guys, nobody really took the Indian inquiry that seriously- it was directed more at assessing platform capabilities. India was never seriously looking at F-16's, and was perfectly aware that the US would be selling these AC to Pakistan, so by gaining some "confidential info" on the F-16, they felt that they would be in a better position wrt threat assessment.

I hate to have to state the obvious here, but geez...

So let's put this silly discussion to bed about the F-16 production line, and get back to the topic- IAF and the 126 AC.

 

[mysterious]

Finally...

 

[rafale_2k5]

i dont understand this Indian paronia of Pakistan buying F-16s since technically even now India has much superior jts in the form of MKIs. As far as goin 4 F-18s is concerned i dont see that IAF would be so naiive to pick a failed jet, even the super hornet suffers from serious technical issues like wing drop etc , If i were in the IAF would definitely bet my 10 cents eithe on MIG-29 SMT or M2K-5 , provide better capabilities than existing later blocks of F-16s n u cant ignore the infrastructural costs. The US would be very glad to give technology since both have to be replaced by JSF in the future so wat better way of getting rid of ur old junk than to provide it to a prospective super power , n at the same time control the strings as has happened in case of Pakstan . Even gripens r a better choice since the aircraft would under go progressive upgrades thru out its life .... n is a good light , agile multi role patform. Had i been in Indian government n if i was really hard pressed to induct American technology would defntely ask 4 JSF if none other. otherwise PAK-FA does offer comparable capabilities n ive got a hunch it would definitely be better than JSF , As supported by history MIG-29/ Su-30s were better than their American counterparts since they had a requirement to meet which was to do better at everything which an F-16/ F-15 could perform.

AS far as Pakistan is concerned i believe its a desperate measure since the neithe had the bucks nor the political clout to bring about the sale of gripens/ rafales, plus the short term stategic thinking F-16 has reached the end of its life so judging from reports even if the 70 as being contemplated r inducted by the time they come to maturity the world would be buzzing with 5th generation aircrafts like the PAK-FA , JSFn F-22. So all in all it wont amount to much .............n once again we'll see PAF shoppin for junk to keep the F-16 fleet airborne as has happened in case of Mirages....

 

[gf0012-aust]

As far as goin 4 F-18s is concerned i dont see that IAF would be so naiive to pick a failed jet, even the super hornet suffers from serious technical issues like wing drop etc

I'm curious as to what "wing drop" is. I've had some association with upgrades for these aircraft and thats never been a problem heard of or identified. So what is it? What other Hornet users have had this problem? I would assume that I would have heard of it. All users of aircraft type are alerted when a structural fault is identified - I don't know of the Swiss, Finns or Spanish having this come up either.

If i were in the IAF would definitely bet my 10 cents eithe on MIG-29 SMT or M2K-5 , provide better capabilities than existing later blocks of F-16s n u cant ignore the infrastructural costs. The US would be very glad to give technology since both have to be replaced by JSF in the future so wat better way of getting rid of ur old junk than to provide it to a prospective super power , n at the same time control the strings as has happened in case of Pakstan .

Existing planes already have infrastructure costs - how does your logic work out?

Even gripens r a better choice since the aircraft would under go progressive upgrades thru out its life .... n is a good light , agile multi role patform. Had i been in Indian government n if i was really hard pressed to induct American technology would defntely ask 4 JSF if none other. otherwise PAK-FA does offer comparable capabilities n ive got a hunch it would definitely be better than JSF ,

A gripen (which is a short ranged point defence platform) has what advantages over other aircraft offered? I'm curious to see the credible analysis done. There are some in here who have an aviation industry background, they are familiar with weapons and package disciplines. I'm sure that they are curious to see alternative constructive papers.

As for the PAK-FA, lets see, PAK-FA has been spoken about for how many years? ever seen a mockup? ever seen any conceptual drawings? seen any specs that have been verified by anyone in the aviation industry and not talked up by fan clubs who wouldn't know a tail fin from a sharks fin? ? JSF is at least a legacy platform with F-22 heritage - and there are 51 x F-22's tarmac'd. How is anyone supposed to make a decision on a ghost platform?

As supported by history MIG-29/ Su-30s were better than their American counterparts since they had a requirement to meet which was to do better at everything which an F-16/ F-15 could perform.

Interesting, this is despite the fact that the USAF had 21 Mig 29's of their own for evaluation, and would train hard against the Luftwaffe Mig29's in aggressor roles? The Luftwaffe Pilots had almost double the hours of the East Germans and considerably more than the Russians, and yet their superiority was never obvious except for the rated OCU qualified pilots.

The F-16 has just surpassed the record as the most reliable single engined fighter ever made - they've build more of then than any other aircraft type. Do you seriously think that the Israeli and modified Singaporean F-16's are sub standard?

btw, the F-15 record is 101 kills for no losses. Whats the Su-27 and Mig29 kill rate against loss? Hint, it's single digits - not even double 0 and certainly not triple.

AS far as Pakistan is concerned i believe its a desperate measure since the neithe had the bucks nor the political clout to bring about the sale of gripens/ rafales, plus the short term stategic thinking F-16 has reached the end of its life so judging from reports even if the 70 as being contemplated r inducted by the time they come to maturity the world would be buzzing with 5th generation aircrafts like the PAK-FA , JSFn F-22.

You fail to understand Swedens foreign policy if you blame it on the Pakistani Govt

 

[indianguy4u]

well one thing is sure nor indian ppl nor communist nor NDA will give permission to this UPA gov to buy those sh*****s AC of US of A.IAF has already shown inclination to buy Mirage 2000-5 AC but i think we should go for rafale or eurofighter as it is current gen MRCA