Future of the French/Russian Mistral LHDs

pkcasimir

Member
The Ottawa Citizen is referencing an International Business Times story about a possible Mistral sale to Canada, probably as a result of Hollande's visit to Canada this week. As reported, such a sale is unlikely for many reasons. If the RCN was to find money for an amphibious ship, hopefully it would be a Juan Carlos/Canberra class ship.
And just what in the world would Canada do with an amphibious assault ship? What's the mission? Are they going to fill it with all of those helicopters that it has been trying to buy for 20 years or maybe some F-35b's? And where are the skilled personnel to man it going to come from?

The Canadian Navy has a lot more pressing needs.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
And just what in the world would Canada do with an amphibious assault ship? What's the mission? Are they going to fill it with all of those helicopters that it has been trying to buy for 20 years or maybe some F-35b's? And where are the skilled personnel to man it going to come from?

The Canadian Navy has a lot more pressing needs.
Yes, the RCN has more pressing needs but an amphibious assault ship does have merit, albeit not Mistrals. In addition to real military applications, they could be marketed to the Canadian kumbayah public for humanitarian missions, which is a viable and reasonable mission need. Unfortunately, the Canadian public is too kumbayah about DND in general so the RCN will likely morph into a dysfunctional coastal navy.
 

bdique

Member
Yes, the RCN has more pressing needs but an amphibious assault ship does have merit, albeit not Mistrals. In addition to real military applications, they could be marketed to the Canadian kumbayah public for humanitarian missions, which is a viable and reasonable mission need. Unfortunately, the Canadian public is too kumbayah about DND in general so the RCN will likely morph into a dysfunctional coastal navy.
Nations surrounding Canada (not many to begin with) don't often run into natural disasters on a scale the communities cannot handle on their own. That kinda eliminates the HADR role for a Canadian Mistral.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Nations surrounding Canada (not many to begin with) don't often run into natural disasters on a scale the communities cannot handle on their own. That kinda eliminates the HADR role for a Canadian Mistral.
Haiti and the Carribean in general during hurricane season is an example. Rescuing citizens of convenience from their former countries (e.g. Lebanon) is another example albeit one I am not in favour of.
 

Delta204

Active Member
Nations surrounding Canada (not many to begin with) don't often run into natural disasters on a scale the communities cannot handle on their own. That kinda eliminates the HADR role for a Canadian Mistral.
While this is true, mission like these (Haiti as an example) are widely supported by the Cdn. public and politicians alike. It feeds into this sort of narcissistic attitude Canadians have; we like to show off to the world how giving we are and how, unlike our neighbors to the south, we primarily use our military to help / rescue people and not conquer them (not my views - just trying to describe Cdn attitudes on these matters).

If the gov can sell it to public that we need them for disaster response then go ahead. While the debate in Canada seems to resurface almost every few months now I still don't see it happening, but who knows! Just don't trim the budget for the surface combatants! As for manpower, the RCN would actually quite easily be able to man them with the recent decommissioning of 4 large surface vessels in our fleet so that wouldn't be a big problem.


Personally, I'm intrigued by the flexibility offered by vessels such as the Mistral. I think I even remember reading on here that some countries have been exploring the possibility of LHD being utilized in an ASW capacity - loaded with ASW helo's. I think with the coming generation of UUV, USV, and UAV's - vessels like Mistral will be highly relevant and sought after by modern navies.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
IF they really wanted to punish Russia the French Govt should order Total and Technip to cease operations in Russia, that would create problems for several very large projects. Stopping the delivery of the Mistrals is going to hit them hard as an unreliable weapons supplier.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
IF they really wanted to punish Russia the French Govt should order Total and Technip to cease operations in Russia, that would create problems for several very large projects. Stopping the delivery of the Mistrals is going to hit them hard as an unreliable weapons supplier.

Europe needs to step up and place these ships into some kind of EU defence requirement. If not, the sale will go through as France needs it....then again given Russia's economic decline due to oil prices and their Ukraine adventure perhaps Russia wants to bail.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...Stopping the delivery of the Mistrals is going to hit them hard as an unreliable weapons supplier.
Is it? It's pretty normal. The USA has stopped deliveries quite a few times, as has just about everyone else - including France, more than once. It's in the rules. Go up against* your arms vendor, & it'll stop selling to you.

*And that means a lot less than open warfare with it, or even with an ally.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Russia isn't at war with France nor is Ukraine a French ally. This is a stupid sanction, if France really wanted to sanction Russia making Technip and Total pull out would do the trick, stopping Mistral is a soft punishment.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Russia isn't at war with France nor is Ukraine a French ally.
I refer you to my previous answer.

a lot less than open warfare with it, or even with an ally.
Although not explicit, I think that it should be understood that the above implies that armed aggression against a friendly nation, even if not an ally, is beyond the pale.

The French sale of Mistrals to Russia was very controversial before Russia attacked Ukraine.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I refer you to my previous answer.


Although not explicit, I think that it should be understood that the above implies that armed aggression against a friendly nation, even if not an ally, is beyond the pale.

The French sale of Mistrals to Russia was very controversial before Russia attacked Ukraine.
Eh. It gets complicated. Ultimately France is not required to stop those deliveries by aggression against a friendly nation. It's a decision based on expediency not on principle. Because Russian defense officials don't value the Mistral deal, they're willing to play a game with them, and are putting France in a position where delivering them will look bad, but not delivering them will be expensive. Notice how no similar issues have arisen with say Thales thermals for the T-90 and the T-72B3, or with the Thals TopSight for the MiG-29K and KUB variants.

MoD and General Staff leadership has convinced the leadership of the country that they don't really need the Mistral (they wrong in my opinion) and thus they're willing to risk the contract to make a point to France, who would much rather quietly and without pomp deliver the ships in question and be done with it. This is why Russia is not letting the public forget about the Mistrals, and why their delivery is being interpreted in media as a sign.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Not required to stop deliveries. But it is to be expected. By delivering the Mistrals, France would piss off a lot of allies, & appear to be putting money above principles. They're high profile, much more visible than thermal sights or a few Topsight.

The French mistake was selling 'em to Russia in the first place.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Not required to stop deliveries. But it is to be expected. By delivering the Mistrals, France would piss off a lot of allies, & appear to be putting money above principles. They're high profile, much more visible than thermal sights or a few Topsight.

The French mistake was selling 'em to Russia in the first place.
Well, that and not being prepared not to sell them to Russia.

Spain also bid on the project (was never going to happen). But say it did and Spain had two JC1 to dispose of quickly for a fire sale price. I would imagine they would have less of an issue selling them. Turkey is already interested, they already have existing foreign sales to Australia.

For the price of the Mistrals, they have pretty much taken France completely out of the discussion or half sitting on the Russian side. Its driving a wedge.

Divide and conquer.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Well, that and not being prepared not to sell them to Russia.

Spain also bid on the project (was never going to happen). But say it did and Spain had two JC1 to dispose of quickly for a fire sale price. I would imagine they would have less of an issue selling them. Turkey is already interested, they already have existing foreign sales to Australia.

For the price of the Mistrals, they have pretty much taken France completely out of the discussion or half sitting on the Russian side. Its driving a wedge.

Divide and conquer.
Had this been a Spanish sale (which I agree was not on), there would some interested parties. I would like to think Canada would consider this but it would be very unlikely. It would be a better deal than Mistrals though.
 
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StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Had this been a Spanish sale (which I agree was not on), there would some interested parties. I would like to think Canada would consider this but it would be very unlikely. It would be a better deal than Mistrals though.
JC1 is a known quantity that won a pretty fair contest by a country that is pretty open about it. To be honest the Spanish should probably just build another hull and try to find someone to buy it, they probably would (ie zero risk build).

Mistral would be a nightmare. French and Russian build and systems. Literally the only countries that would consider it would be France and Russia. I would have doubt that NATO would want to be lumbered with them, the unloved duckling. Giant symbols of a silly idea. The French obviously don't want/need/afford them. Everyone else would know if it comes down to it, the French would essentially have to gift it or keep them.

I can see the french giving them to South Africa as some sort of aid package and try to get the EU to kick some money/resources into it. They would be highly useful in Africa, and would be best out of europe reminding everyone.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
the russians have indicated that they are not worried about a delayed delivery - but they will pursue on non delivery
 
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