Five Power Defence Arrangement - HQ Integrated Area Defence System

[shihido]

This is a thread to discuss the (imaginatively named) 5 Power Defence Arrangement between the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia and Singapore.

I would like to check on the effectiveness of this arrangement. Does it even make sense? Is it a simply a knee-jerk arrangement as to the events that led to the fall of the South East Asian (in particular Malaysia and Singapore) during World War 2?

But more importantly, is this arrangement be effective for any forseeable threat?

I am aware that the only, tangible, result from this arrangement, other than the periodic exercise between the members, is the HQ Integrated Area Defence System. What exactly is this? Is it simply an outpost of the arrangement hosting a rotational roster of the member nations?

 

[riksavage]

This is a thread to discuss the (imaginatively named) 5 Power Defence Arrangement between the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia and Singapore.

I would like to check on the effectiveness of this arrangement. Does it even make sense? Is it a simply a knee-jerk arrangement as to the events that led to the fall of the South East Asian (in particular Malaysia and Singapore) during World War 2?

But more importantly, is this arrangement be effective for any forseeable threat?

I am aware that the only, tangible, result from this arrangement, other than the periodic exercise between the members, is the HQ Integrated Area Defence System. What exactly is this? Is it simply an outpost of the arrangement hosting a rotational roster of the member nations?

the five powers agreement grew out of the Malayan Emergency and conflict with Indonesia, plus following Singapore's independence the UK was concerned about possible fallout between Malaysia and Singapore, hence attack on one was an attack on all. Also remember the domino theory was all the rage at the time the agreement was signed. The five powers still work together (recent TEWT held in Singapore). Plus UK staff courses invite five power reps.

 

[shihido]

But is this arrangement an effective means for defence for any forseeable threat?

I understand that under the terms of this agreement, none of the parties concerned are obligated in any way to participate in any instance of this event.

As far as i can see, this arrangement only serves 2 main purposes,
- to keep indonesia in check; as a deterrent to indonesia from any aggressive moves towards Singapore and Malaysia
- as a forward defence outpost for Australia and New Zealand

How does the UK benefit from this? Especially since they do not have any presence nor interest in the region.

And lastly, can anyone tell me the capabilities of this agreement, in particular that of the HQ Integrated Defence System?

 

[riksavage]

But is this arrangement an effective means for defence for any forseeable threat?

I understand that under the terms of this agreement, none of the parties concerned are obligated in any way to participate in any instance of this event.

As far as i can see, this arrangement only serves 2 main purposes,
- to keep indonesia in check; as a deterrent to indonesia from any aggressive moves towards Singapore and Malaysia
- as a forward defence outpost for Australia and New Zealand

How does the UK benefit from this? Especially since they do not have any presence nor interest in the region.

And lastly, can anyone tell me the capabilities of this agreement, in particular that of the HQ Integrated Defence System?

The UK benefits because it has approximately 150,000 expats in the region. Should the UK Government need to conduct a NEO, then they would clearly prefer to do it with allies who have a stong track record working together and a thorough understanding of each others operational doctrine. This agreement allows UK military assets to utilise port facilities during an emergency scenario, similar say to what we are currently witnessing in Haiti.

The UK's East of Suez policy also was a stong influencing factor. With the rise of Communism (1971 - Vietnam war still in full swing), Singapore in particular was keen to have the UK, Australia and NZ commited to her defence until she developed a fully fledged armed forces.

The HQ intergrated defence system, is just that! Member states sending officers to jointly plan and respond to a crisis, hence the recent Singapore TEWT.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Good overall article.
http://www.securitychallenges.org.au/ArticlePDFs/vol3no1Thayer.pdf

Singapore perspective
MINDEF - History - 1971 - The Beginning of the Five Power Defence Arrangements (Volume 1 Issue 4)

V24N2 - Five Power Defence Arrangements : A Singapore Perspective

This highlights the UK perspective.
http://www.aph.gov.au/House/committee/jfadt/malaysia/subs/sub26.pdf

"FPDA exercises provide the five member nations with valuable, realistic and professional training in war fighting; training which is difficult for our military forces to obtain elsewhere..."

Primarily, UK involvement is to maintain its participation in global security arrangements particularly when this involves 4 ex-colonies.

 

[STURM]

Largely unreported is that Butterworth is the only base in which the ADF mantains a permanent presence. Despite being a former British colony, Malaysia for the past few decades has had a closer defence relationship with Australia rather than Britain or anyone else for that matter. Though RAAF aircraft are no longer based in Butterworth, RAAF aircraft still visit Butterworth regularly to participate in FPDA exercises and for refueling stops. To support these aircraft the ADF mantains a logistics/support detachment at Butterworth as well as an infantry company that trains regularly with the Malaysian army. A few years ago, an RAAF P-3 from Butterworth annoyed the Indians when it overflew the INS Delhi in the Straits of Melaka while she was on her way to a LIMA exhibition at Langkawi. According to a report the INS Delhi activated its fire control after the P-3 dropped some sonabuoys and made repeated passes.

As reported in the Thayer pdf [link provided by Weasel] FPDA exercises in recent years have grown in size and complexity and eventhough there is no more a Soviet or Vietnamese threat to the region, still serves as a useful platform for regional defence cooperation. Some years ago, a new command and control system was installed at the IADS HQ to replace a UNIX based system.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Just wanted to acknowledge the kiwis who had a battalion (1st, if I remember correctly) stationed in Singapore (Dieppe barracks) [from 1971 I think] until 1989. Small support elements still remain to this day. The 1st RNZIR had a close relationship with the Singapore Commando battalion. Just another example that the FPDA is not just a non-binding agreement.

The medals presented by the nzdf included a number which involved action in malaya.

NZDF MedalsMedals Initiatives 1992 to 2007 - Recognising Operational Service since 3 September 1945

NZ signed a further defence cooperation agreement with Singapore in May 2009 to cement military ties that included training. Apparently, ohakea (in Palmerston north, NZ) is one of the candidates for RSAF advanced pilot training which will take over the sqn based at Cazaux, France.

 

[Cadredave]

Just wanted to acknowledge the kiwis who had a battalion (1st, if I remember correctly) stationed in Singapore (Dieppe barracks) [from 1971 I think] until 1989. Small support elements still remain to this day. The 1st RNZIR had a close relationship with the Singapore Commando battalion. Just another example that the FPDA is not just a non-binding agreement.

The medals presented by the nzdf included a number which involved action in malaya.

NZDF MedalsMedals Initiatives 1992 to 2007 - Recognising Operational Service since 3 September 1945

NZ signed a further defence cooperation agreement with Singapore in May 2009 to cement military ties that included training. Apparently, ohakea (in Palmerston north, NZ) is one of the candidates for RSAF advanced pilot training which will take over the sqn based at Cazaux, France.

You are quite correct 1RNZIR has a Formal alliance with 1 Commando Bn, since 1999 only our Navy has regulary exercised with our 5PDA partners due in part to the Land Ops that Army are currently conducting now which is a pity as our Jungle war fighting skills are slowly degrading.

 

[STURM]

Just wanted to acknowledge the kiwis who had a battalion (1st, if I remember correctly) stationed in Singapore (Dieppe barracks) [from 1971 I think] until 1989.

I remember seeing them on a few occasions in the 80's crossing the causeway to Johor on their way to the jungle warfare school in Ulu Tiram for training. Up until the early 90's there were still small numbers of Kiwi and Aussies officers attached to the jungle warfare school. Not sure if they're still there though.

 

[exported_kiwi]

I remember seeing them on a few occasions in the 80's crossing the causeway to Johor on their way to the jungle warfare school in Ulu Tiram for training. Up until the early 90's there were still small numbers of Kiwi and Aussies officers attached to the jungle warfare school. Not sure if they're still there though.

Well, I grew up there, my Daddy was Col in SP back then. We won't abandon our friends in the region, there isn't a cold day in hell!

 

[weasel1962]

I remember seeing them on a few occasions in the 80's crossing the causeway to Johor on their way to the jungle warfare school in Ulu Tiram for training. Up until the early 90's there were still small numbers of Kiwi and Aussies officers attached to the jungle warfare school. Not sure if they're still there though.

The permanent NZ unit in SG is the NZ Defence Support Unit / South-East Asia (Singapore) which is still around.

NZDF - Singapore NZDSU

A NZ-SG defence co-ordinating group was set up in 1995. The NZ govt considers Singapore to be its closest defence partner after Australia (per NZ MoD annual report). In reverse, SG classifies NZ in the same category of importance as Australia, which is as important as it can get from a military standpoint.

NZ still has a mutual assistance programme (MAP) with Malaysia (with a technical adviser post in Pulada ie the Malaysian Army Land Training Centre in Ulu Tiram you mentioned). SG-NZ MAP ended in June 2008 with a progression into the bi-lateral relationship today.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Though RAAF aircraft are no longer based in Butterworth, RAAF aircraft still visit Butterworth regularly to participate in FPDA exercises and for refueling stops.

There are a flight of AP3'c more or less permanent on base though - as they are defacto active on tasks such as pirate watch in the Straits

 

[STURM]

There are a flight of AP3'c more or less permanent on base though - as they are defacto active on tasks such as pirate watch in the Straits

According to a report released in the 90's, the RAAF P-3s were rotated to Butterworth on 16 week deployments. About 2-3 years ago the Aussie government upgraded the housing and leisure facilities at the RAAF part of the Butterworth base.

 

[gf0012-aust]

According to a report released in the 90's, the RAAF P-3s were rotated to Butterworth on 16 week deployments. About 2-3 years ago the Aussie government upgraded the housing and leisure facilities at the RAAF part of the Butterworth base.

I'd have to double check with someone at work, but my understanding is that they have had an elevated presence since 9-11,and then again for piracy watch as well as after the Tsunami.

They're certainly out there though as a team has just done a rotation to butterworth and its a handover...

 

[weasel1962]

According to a report released in the 90's, the RAAF P-3s were rotated to Butterworth on 16 week deployments. About 2-3 years ago the Aussie government upgraded the housing and leisure facilities at the RAAF part of the Butterworth base.

I tot its a permanent detachment.

http://www.defence.gov.au/defencemagazine/editions/200809_01/raaf_butter.pdf

RMAF Base Butterworth : Royal Australian Air Force

Understand role is to perform operation Gateway for traffic surveillance in the Indian Ocean. Interesting focus (rather than South China Sea).

 

[STURM]

I tot its a permanent detachment.

Understand role is to perform operation Gateway for traffic surveillance in the Indian Ocean. Interesting focus (rather than South China Sea).

I suspect a cold war role for the RAAF P-3s may have been gathering ELINT and SIGINT on Soviet ships in the Indian ocean and at Cam Ranh Bay and Da Nang :. With the Soviet bases now gone from the region, another possibility could be keeping an eye on the PLAN sub base at Hainan.

Regarding the incident wth the P-3 and the INS Delhi, did this receive any coverage in the Aussie press? According to the Indians, the fire control was activated after the P-3 made numerous low level passes and dropped sonabuoys. Would have been very unpleasent if the Indians had fired.

 

[OPSSG]

I suspect a cold war role for the RAAF P-3s may have been gathering ELINT and SIGINT on Soviet ships in the Indian ocean and at Cam Ranh Bay and Da Nang :. With the Soviet bases now gone from the region, another possibility could be keeping an eye on the PLAN sub base at Hainan.

Regarding the incident wth the P-3 and the INS Delhi, did this receive any coverage in the Aussie press? According to the Indians, the fire control was activated after the P-3 made numerous low level passes and dropped sonabuoys. Would have been very unpleasent if the Indians had fired.

Hello! Another incredible India story? INS Delhi = surface ship, so why hunt it with sonabuoys?

 

[Kilo 2-3]

Hello! Another incredible India story? INS Delhi = surface ship, so why hunt it with sonabuoys?

It might have been an effort to gather the Indian ship's acoustic signature for inclusion in a sound/threat library. While you are right that an airplane or surface ship whould have little use for this infomation, (well, a DD or frigate might have some use for it, but not much of one) it would be highly beneficial for a submarine like the RAN's Collins boats. Subs don't have eyes, so they have to use their ears instead.

It also might have been a delibrate effort to get the India ship to turn on its fire control system and give away some information on its radar (frequencies, etc.), info which is always useful.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I suspect a cold war role for the RAAF P-3s may have been gathering ELINT and SIGINT on Soviet ships in the Indian ocean and at Cam Ranh Bay and Da Nang :. With the Soviet bases now gone from the region, another possibility could be keeping an eye on the PLAN sub base at Hainan.

It's not just a cold war task. every LR maritime aviation asset is a "cleaner"

Regarding the incident wth the P-3 and the INS Delhi, did this receive any coverage in the Aussie press? According to the Indians, the fire control was activated after the P-3 made numerous low level passes and dropped sonabuoys. Would have been very unpleasent if the Indians had fired.

This has been run in the open press a number of times. fundamentally it was rubbish journalism. the orion was actually focused on other issues, the fact that the IN had an asset in that loc had nothing to do with it.

 

[gf0012-aust]

It might have been an effort to gather the Indian ship's acoustic signature for inclusion in a sound/threat library.

Except like minded allies don't need to always go and add to their own threat libraries - ie we share data constantly. eg (and this is significant) CBASS was developed off Aust acoustic management software and shared threat libraries.

While you are right that an airplane or surface ship whould have little use for this infomation, (well, a DD or frigate might have some use for it, but not much of one) it would be highly beneficial for a submarine like the RAN's Collins boats. Subs don't have eyes, so they have to use their ears instead.

except they don't need to gather that data by air anyway - the information and material would be available from any number of sources.

It also might have been a delibrate effort to get the India ship to turn on its fire control system and give away some information on its radar (frequencies, etc.), info which is always useful.

again, see above. a known system with known parameters would be of academic interest, and as I indicated prev, the Orion was more interested in something else occurring at that time. The INS Delhi was not it. She happened to be an accidental tourist during the event.