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F-35 - International Participation

Discussion in 'Air Force & Aviation' started by OPSSG, Apr 13, 2012.

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  1. SpazSinbad

    SpazSinbad Active Member

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    Just a sentence or two here about the upcoming video because otherwise I have to sit on the naughty step.... Auto Tech from commercial cargo handling I believe - but not self loading freight. They are left behind mostly.

    HMS Queen Elizabeth, F-35B ammo handling, sortie

     
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  2. DaveS124

    DaveS124 Active Member

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    Yep.

    First words from a Japanese politicians that, yes, this all about China's unhelpful behaviour in the region since c2010.

    The journo is actually in Tokyo, and attending media briefings, so the source is good. An order of 40 F-35Bs certainly suggests that, in due course, both IZUMO and KAGA will get the required refit.

    Whole article at the link. Worth reading. Japan moves forward on F-35 buy, aircraft carrier transformation
     
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  3. SpazSinbad

    SpazSinbad Active Member

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    More specific numbers in this 13 Dec 2018 article - also yen details and other stuff.
     
  4. DaveS124

    DaveS124 Active Member

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    A friend in US sent a very long copy-and-paste of a New York Times article on the Japanese news. It's behind a paywall, and far too long to paste here in one go, so I'll just drop a few interesting quotes.

    MOD EDIT Article link: Upgrade Would Arm Japan With First Aircraft Carriers Since World War II
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2018
  5. SpazSinbad

    SpazSinbad Active Member

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    Don't know if the SCALE is correct - image sent via e-mail - seems credible by sender. IZUMO 14 F-35B Hangarage Idea. izumohangar.gif
     
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  6. barney41

    barney41 Member

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    Cramming jet's like sardines in a can hardly makes for efficient workflow and aircraft movement specially with a single elevator.
     
  7. SpazSinbad

    SpazSinbad Active Member

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    Wait. What? Have you never seen how a flat deck aviation ship works? Some time back a photo of A4Gs crammed underneath deck of HMAS Melbourne the aircraft carrier was posted.

    Sure cramming aircraft anywhere on a ship is TRYING for anyone. Sometimes alleviated by an OUIJA Board. These days they are starting to be ELECTRONIC. The diagram shows the maximum that 'could' be crammed under. No one says that will be the case in reality. Think how some near the lift will be moved UP, then remainder moved around so that the one most far from the lift may be moved UP if that was the need. Aircraft are shuffled around a small carrier all the time. You may now see the HUGE advantage of a LARGE Deck with a LARGE hangar (note spelling). Think of the CVFs and think of CVNs with a reduced number of aircraft - plenty of space for movements as required. <sigh> :) LHAs really CRAM stuff onboard

    This pic posted because LHA: F-35B footprint modelling: http://www.navair.navy.mil/img/uploads/Carrier_analysis_photo_1.jpg Carrier_analysis_photo_1.jpg

    WASPoverhead5F-35BsOnDeckForum.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
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  8. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    It's called spotting and if you really want to see it in action go dig up some YouTube videos of WW2 carrier ops.
     
  9. SpazSinbad

    SpazSinbad Active Member

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    This morning via e-mail I was asked about the SPOT FACTOR of the F-35 Family (of course the F-35A is not onboard except perhaps to transit a VAST OCEAN as cargo). An F-35C has a spot factor of 1.16 [earlier graphic from next URL says 1.11 in 2002 (compared to F/A-18C which has a spot factor of 1).

    F-35B has a spot factor of 1.05 : http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a399988.pdf (1Mb)

    The Influence of Ship Configuration on the Design of the Joint Strike Fighter [origin of low quality 1st graphic]
    ___________________________________________

    OR: http://www.amdo.org/JSF_Program_and_33_FW_Updates.pdf (3.4Mb) This recent PDF has F-35C at 1.16 SPOT FACTOR.

    F-35familySpotFactorRyberg2002.gif F-35CspotFactor1-16Recent2011.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
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  10. DaveS124

    DaveS124 Active Member

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    There are two lifts.

    One is centreline forward, and the other starboard aft.

    As Ngati suggests, carrier air staff have been successfully - and efficiently - making for efficient workflow and movement for many, many decades.

    End of story.
     
  11. ASSAIL

    ASSAIL Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    If you want to see further action be on a small deck carrier when aircraft are ranged for the daily grind, aircraft are under maintenance in the hangar and then one aircraft on deck goes u/s. The shuffling would make Fred Astaire look pedestrian.
     
  12. Stampede

    Stampede Active Member

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    Great image of the F35B's parked on the deck.
    Real planes on a real ship showing how close they can be located to each other.
    Most impressive and inspiring.

    Regards S
     
  13. DaveS124

    DaveS124 Active Member

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    First Turkish STOVL drivers are on the way. Several reports floating around regarding total Turkish F-35 numbers, of both types, but they need to be treated with caution until there's a note on that from official US sources.



    I have no idea why the final phrase of the second paragraph is in bold type. Not my doing! :eek:

    Whole article here Turkish pilots to begin training for F-35 B fighter jets | Ahval
     
  14. t68

    t68 Well-Known Member

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    Its a link to another article by the looks of it.
     
  15. hauritz

    hauritz Well-Known Member

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    Last I heard the F-35 was still on hold for Turkey.

    Turkey needs to make its mind up about whether it wants US jets or Russian air defence missile. Just imagine some Russian technician getting to test this missile systems effectiveness against the F-35.

    I believe the US has just offered to sell Patriot missiles to Turkey instead so hopefully commonsense will eventually prevail.
     
  16. SpazSinbad

    SpazSinbad Active Member

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    'hauritz' said: "Last I heard the F-35 was still on hold for Turkey...." That question is being debated however NOTHING decided as the first Turk F-35s go to LUKE for training. Later when other Turkish F-35s are slated to fly to Turkey is CRUNCH TIME. However likely the 'problem' will be solved by then - but who knows. Turkey dumping itself from the program seems unlikely so this is all brinkmanship. A report has stated the effect on production of Turkey leaving will be slight whilst numbers are fortified by extra Japanese crates at moment.
     
  17. seaspear

    seaspear Member

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    An article in Defense Aerospace 3/1/2019 commented that the removal of the engine of the F35A takes 35 hours and likely that much again to reinstall , and compared this to a Rafale on a U.S.N carrier with a six man maintenance crew which took out the engine in 3 hours .
     
  18. Todjaeger

    Todjaeger Potstirrer

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    I seem to recall that the site is one of those that seems to have a bias against the F-35. Having found and read the article referenced, I found it rather lacking in details. For instance, was it 36 man-hours to remove an F-35 engine? Or was it a total of 36 working hours with the entire maintenance crew working on removing the engine? If it was the later, how many people were part of the maintenance crew? Also given the story, how much if any of the time was occupied because the aircraft and maintenance crews were not at their regular bases, and the tools had to be shipped in before work could begin?

    Incidentally, while the Rafale-M had it's engine changed in three hours, that was the work of a six person maintenance crew for a total of 18 man-hours of labor to change the engine, which I believe was a 'regular' engine change.

    The article referenced on the site was about an OTI (one time inspection) of a specific fuel line, with parts from a certain batch number or range of numbers needing to be removed and replaced. Reading the article further, it mentioned that an alternate way to inspect and replace the fuel line without requiring removal of the engine and initially this faster method took 24 hours, or 12 hours less than removing the engine and putting it on a stand. That, to me, sounds like that 36 hour engine removal time first mentioned was for removing the engine, inspect the fuel line in question, replace it if needed, then inspect the work done before the engine gets cleared to be re-installed. That is not quite the same as what seems to be getting suggested initially, which given some of the commentary put in by the editor, makes me think that what was being suggested was done so deliberately.

    As a side note, the article also mentioned that after doing the new method a few more times on additional aircraft, a further four hours was shaved off the time required. We still do not know how these hours were determined (man-hours, or from start to finish for a job, etc.) but even everything mentioned in the article, it does sound like the work being done was not 'routine maintenance' and also that it was not happening under normal conditions, since the work was being carried out at a base the F-35's had been evacuated to, to avoid Hurricane Michael, and that all the normal tools and parts were not initially available since things had to be shipped in.
     
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  19. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    @seaspear How about providing a link to the article you cite instead of just posting "an article ...". Makes it a lot easier for the rest of us comment on said article. For your and others info said article.

    Innovation In Tight Spaces

    Also Defense Aerospace are known for their anti F-35 bias.
     
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  20. SpazSinbad

    SpazSinbad Active Member

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    The ORIGINAL artickle is here: Innovation in tight spaces > Air Education and Training Command > News Word on the street says eight hours for a crew of six with all the tools on hand tops to remove replace an F135. My impression of USAF artickles particularly when written by lower ranks is that they often 'intentionally? obfuscate' details possibly for opsec reasons or just poor writing skills. For about half a year nothing was forthcoming from USAF because they had to go to classes about OPSEC - reported as such anyway [USN same - US Army dunno]. I have tried to find reports about 'time to change an F135 engine' without success however they have been changed onboard an LHA including LiftFan and a CVN, sadly time not reported AFAIK. Picture of Oz made by MARAND engine trailer from here:

    F-35B & ENGINE Special 60 Pages AIR_Intl_October_2015_UK ed.pdf (6.5Mb)

    http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=29255 (PDF 6.5Mb) F135engineTrailerOTusmcTestWaspFORUM.jpg

    172 page PDF AIR International F-35 Special 2014 31Mb: F-35 Lightning II – An Air Warfare Revolution - 2014 UK.pdf 4 pages about Oz Marand and others.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019