F-35 - International Participation

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Thank you for exemplifying why the F-35, while being more expensive to purchase, is less expensive to operate.

The F-35 can do alone what it takes a 4th gen striker, A2A escort, EW escort, and tanker(s) to do.
I love the F-35 as much as the next man, but let's not go crazy. The F-35 is still a tactical fighter and will still require loads of tanker support just as our current F/A-18 and Super Hornet tactical fighters do.

If C-17's, P-8's and Wedgetails require tanker support, thinking the F-35 doesn't require it, is getting a tad ridiculous...
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
Not saying that it will never require it, but it does significantly outrange the F-16/18 that is replacing so it will require it less often than the current F-16/18s do.
agreed, another point the undereducated detractors of the F35c don't get
Combat Radius
F18SH. 390 nmi
F35C. 630nmi
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
After numerous inquires into which fighter would be best for Canada, junior and his formerly honourable defence minister (he's now morphed into a true junior minion) have decided on yet another industry survey (didn't like the last one because it recommended the F-35). As per the link, only half the CF-18s are operational at any given time which means about 40 out of 80. That's still over 6 times the number which junior pulled out of the ME.

I can see them trying to use delivery time as a sole-source specification in favour of the SH. Hopefully, LM as a way to shuffle some delivery schedules so they don't get screwed on this phony delivery requirement. If the Liberal government tries this, I think it will be the first major blow-back for junior.

Liberals launching new round of consultations on fighter jets - The Globe and Mail
 

t68

Well-Known Member
After numerous inquires into which fighter would be best for Canada, junior and his formerly honourable defence minister (he's now morphed into a true junior minion) have decided on yet another industry survey (didn't like the last one because it recommended the F-35). As per the link, only half the CF-18s are operational at any given time which means about 40 out of 80. That's still over 6 times the number which junior pulled out of the ME.

I can see them trying to use delivery time as a sole-source specification in favour of the SH. Hopefully, LM as a way to shuffle some delivery schedules so they don't get screwed on this phony delivery requirement. If the Liberal government tries this, I think it will be the first major blow-back for junior.

Liberals launching new round of consultations on fighter jets - The Globe and Mail

If its as bad as they are making out from the article an interim buy of 24x Super Hornets may have to happen to cover an immediate capabilty cap if you can't meet your commitments, you will have a known capabilty straight out of the box gives jnr his breathing space to make the inevitable buy of F35 down the line for the next goverment.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
If its as bad as they are making out from the article an interim buy of 24x Super Hornets may have to happen to cover an immediate capabilty cap if you can't meet your commitments, you will have a known capabilty straight out of the box gives jnr his breathing space to make the inevitable F35 down the line for the next goverment.
"If" is the big question. Many here doubt the Liberal claims that the CF-18 can't last for a few more years. They have been in office for less than a year and before that, while in opposition, they saw no need for immediate replacement. If this were in fact true then one question would be what's the difference in obtaining IOC between a F-35 and SH/Growler for the RCAF assuming delivery times are similar. This is the same BS that left the RCAF with two medium lift helicopters, the EH101 for SAR and the CH-148 (still not meeting specs and only 6 out of 28 delivered), a decision solely to save liberal face.

The RCAF doesn't want two fast jet fleets but if we truly can't meet our commitments then something will have to be bought. We should buy Growlers, not SH assuming an IOC for F-35s can't be met in time for our commitments. They will be more useful to us and our allies. Hopefully an emergency buy doesn't close off the acquisition of F-35s down the road but I fear it will if junior wins a second mandate.:(
 

pkcasimir

Member
After numerous inquires into which fighter would be best for Canada, junior and his formerly honourable defence minister (he's now morphed into a true junior minion) have decided on yet another industry survey (didn't like the last one because it recommended the F-35). As per the link, only half the CF-18s are operational at any given time which means about 40 out of 80. That's still over 6 times the number which junior pulled out of the ME.

I can see them trying to use delivery time as a sole-source specification in favour of the SH. Hopefully, LM as a way to shuffle some delivery schedules so they don't get screwed on this phony delivery requirement. If the Liberal government tries this, I think it will be the first major blow-back for junior.

Liberals launching new round of consultations on fighter jets - The Globe and Mail
Missing in all of the discussion in the Canadian Press about this issue is the reaction to this in the United States. Obama is out of office in a little over seven months and neither President Clinton, President Trump or the new US Congress is going to put up with Junior's fecklessness when it comes to the defense of the North American continent. Canada already refuses to participate in missile defense and planners must consider the possibility of a joint bomber and cruise missile attack from a potential enemy. The mood in the US has changed and Canada as yet doesn't realize it.

At some point, the US is going to demand that Canada plays its part and contributes its fair share to the defense of the continent. If Canada refuses, while at the same time its totally clueless Prime Minister calls the F-35 a piece of junk, all hell will break lose. It is not inconceivable that NORAD then becomes history.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Both candidates can make threats in their campaigns about Canadian defence (lack of) but they will be quickly forgotten. Certainly the folks in the Pentagon would like (and appreciate) a bigger contribution from Canada but 65 new F-35s in Canada is a drop in the bucket compared to US assets. I haven't kept up on what our position is on missile defence so I can't comment.
 
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pkcasimir

Member
Both candidates can make threats in their campaigns about Canadian defence (lack of) but they will be quickly forgotten. Certainly the folks in the Pentagon would like (and appreciate) a bigger contribution from Canada but 65 new F-35s in Canada is a drop in the bucket compared to US assets. I haven't kept up on what our position is on missile defence so I can't comment.
You are totally out of touch with the current mood in the United States. The people that matter can find Canada on the map and they are no longer willing to spend money to protect nations that aren't willing to expend the resources to do so themselves. The Congress is more important in these matters than the Pentagon and their views will prevail. The fact that you are not aware of the missile defense debate in the United States is an indication of just how out of touch you are. Trump is a manifestation of a deep anger in the United States that touches both political parties and Canada ignores it at its peril.

And quite frankly, I am astonished that your assessment of Canada's needs and the defense of the North American continent ignores missile defense.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
We can barely fund a new jet fighter replacement and our navy is in vastly worse shape than the RCAF and you think we need to invest billions in a missile defence system? Even if we wanted to, how many missiles and radars systems would be required to defend Canada? I'm guessing the number is significant and certainly beyond our ability to pay.
This discussion should be in the RCAF thread not here derailing this thread.
 
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Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
You are totally out of touch with the current mood in the United States. The people that matter can find Canada on the map and they are no longer willing to spend money to protect nations that aren't willing to expend the resources to do so themselves. The Congress is more important in these matters than the Pentagon and their views will prevail. The fact that you are not aware of the missile defense debate in the United States is an indication of just how out of touch you are. Trump is a manifestation of a deep anger in the United States that touches both political parties and Canada ignores it at its peril.

And quite frankly, I am astonished that your assessment of Canada's needs and the defense of the North American continent ignores missile defense.
Let's not let this get out of hand, what do you say? Maybe move this discussion to the relevant thread, and please remain civil.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Canada made a payment to the JSF program for continued development. Apparently junior thinks a mere 32 million dollar payment is enough to keep Canadian vendors active in the program. LM has finally publicly warned that no F-35 purchase will mean loss of business to Canadian firms to firms located in countries purchasing the F-35. I think a few of junior's cabinet ministers are going to be feeling increasing pressure from the Canadian aerospace lobby.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/natio...ogram-but-theres-no-commitment-to-buy-the-jet
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Canada made a payment to the JSF program for continued development. Apparently junior thinks a mere 32 million dollar payment is enough to keep Canadian vendors active in the program. LM has finally publicly warned that no F-35 purchase will mean loss of business to Canadian firms to firms located in countries purchasing the F-35. I think a few of junior's cabinet ministers are going to be feeling increasing pressure from the Canadian aerospace lobby.

Canada pays to continue in F-35 program but there’s no commitment to buy the jet | Ottawa Citizen
he's in for a shock then - fleet buyers expect and will get manuf rights for components - there's enough anger already about the amount of work canada has secured without buying in. not only the original 8 ciustomers - but the 3 sitting on the outside want and will expect industry benefits

if they think that $32m secures future work against real customers - then they are delusional.

hell, I was seeing friction about canadian workshare issues in industry meetings in 2001
 

rjtjrt

Member
How then is Israel able to secure major workshare - " IAI is under contract to manufacture more than 800 pairs of wings for the JSF programme."

If Israel can get that amount of workshare with late entry, little initial investment in program, and only 33 orders, then other partners must be a bit miffed. Can Canada claim a right to hold onto workshare on basis of early investment in program?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/israel-may-contract-out-f-35-maintenance-427834/
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Existing Canadian contracts will have to be honoured but LM has indicated future contracts will be moved elsewhere if no F-35s are purchased by Canada.
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
How then is Israel able to secure major workshare - " IAI is under contract to manufacture more than 800 pairs of wings for the JSF programme."

If Israel can get that amount of workshare with late entry, little initial investment in program, and only 33 orders, then other partners must be a bit miffed. Can Canada claim a right to hold onto workshare on basis of early investment in program?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/israel-may-contract-out-f-35-maintenance-427834/
Perhaps contract award is not 100% linked to airframes purchased for subcontractors but also linked to quality of the product produced
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Perhaps contract award is not 100% linked to airframes purchased for subcontractors but also linked to quality of the product produced
Yes, I think your comment is correct. LM still needs quality and competitive subcontractors which may require continuing business with some non F-35 customer countries. However, I fully expect a significant decline for Canada's aerospace sector if Canada does not buy the F-35.
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
How then is Israel able to secure major workshare - " IAI is under contract to manufacture more than 800 pairs of wings for the programme."
LM gave them part of it's workshare just as they did to Japan.

Partner workshare was not reduced,
 
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