F-35 - International Participation

SpazSinbad

Active Member
there are load and take off impacts for/with ramps though...

there was a vid from a USMC Harrier pilot who explained the differences in the 3 different take off types. fuel burn to weapons loads were significant....
Don't know about video however here are some relevant quotes:

BAe/McDonnell Douglas Harrier by Andy Evans | CROWOOD AVIATION SERIES 1998
"...for any Harrier take-off weight, the launch speed could be about 25 kts or less than from a flat deck. This also then translates into a 50 per cent shorter take-off run, or more importantly 30 per cent more fuel or weapons can be carried...."
Harrier Operations on a Ski Jump by Major Art Nalls, USMC, Naval Aviation News, May – June 1990
"...The important difference between a ski jump and a flat deck is that the heavier the aircraft, and the higher the wind over the deck, the greater the advantage of using a ski jump.

The aircraft takeoff performance was so dramatically improved that the heaviest Harrier ever flown from any ship – 31,000 pounds gross weight – was launched from Asturias with only a 400-foot deck run. The 31,000 pounds equals the maximum gross weight capability of the AV-8B. To put this In perspective. a “typical” AV-8B with a close air support ordnance load of full fuel, full water, guns, and 12 MK-82 bombs would weigh only about 29,000 pounds. On a typical 59-degree Fahrenheit day, with 35-knot winds over the deck, this load could be launched from a 300-foot deck run with a 12-degree ski jump. The same ordnance load would require the entire 750-foot flight deck of an LHA...."

http://www.history.navy.mil/content...viation/Naval Aviation News/1990/pdf/mj90.pdf Right mouse click on URL to 'save as'
Relevant to the F-35B on CVF

CVF Ski-jump Ramp Profile Optimisation for F-35B 3324_COLOUR Feb 2009 A. Fry, R. Cook and N. Revill

https://www.scribd.com/doc/190161709/CVF-Ski-jump-Ramp-Profile-Optimisation-for-F-35B-3324-COLOUR
 
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hugin

New Member
F35 Denmark

Denmark's government suggests 27 F35. The Prime minister talks at 10 am. The finally decision in parlament is due July.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
LM is evaluating existing F-35 work in Canada. They should have started this the day after junior was elected.
Lockheed May Shift F-35 Fighter Work Away from Canada (excerpt)
I've been warning about this for yonks - I'm surprised at how long its taken to trigger considering how jacked off some of the existing partners are about canadian companies still getting work when the platform has been pulled.

I saw trudeaus ridiculous comments about JSF never working the other day - what a ridiculous line to throw out.

mores the pity as canadian defence and future planning gets jeopardised due to political gamesmanship

CDAF must have a few senior sirs just gritting their teeth
 

Toblerone

Banned Member
I did a little searching. So Denmark has only 60 F-16A bought in the eighties as its fighter force? Are these unupgraded first generation Falcons in layman's terms?

EDIT: Oh, I found references to MLU versions. That makes sense.
 
The decision in parlament is now finally: Denmark buys 27 F35. A really smal number.
A true Fifth Generation aircraft is a "force multiplier", F-22s operate as solo's or as two ships. The F-35 will operate as a two ship or four ship, with sensor fusion the F-35 will give all of our partners the ability to "fuse" our force and incorporate weapons that may be carried by other aircraft, UAVs, or even vessels and so on, and on.

It will give the term "situational awareness" a new magnitude of capability, it will truly give you a commanding view and sense of the battlefield, and the ability to see developing trends even as they are in a state of Genesis, with the ability to "nip it in the bud" if it is adversarial, or to propagate and develop it further if it is advantageous.

In addition, each of our "partner nations" will become an important piece of the puzzle in an "integrated whole"! There will be F-22's, F-15s, F-16s, Typhoons, UAV's, etc, etc, etc, in addition to ground and naval weapons. So don't be discouraged by what seems a small number, but be encouraged at the "force" that will be given a "heavenly perspective" in order to most effectively martial not only your own, but allied forces!
 

SpazSinbad

Active Member
So far I have seen reference to 'four ship' F-35 formations from at least US and RAAF and probably Brits. Perhaps USMC will have capacity for only two ship but again the ideal is four ship formations of F-35s from what I have read so far.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
the 5th generation capabilities are morphing already into the 6th gen combat platform requirements

its not just about situational awareness, its about connectivity and each platform being a contributing node to the common combat operating picture - its why the shift is towards systems rather than platforms

the 6th gen platform reqs are already way beyond what was initially seen as the FRP - even across different nations

what becomes critical for nations that don't have the same saturation and spread of information and disparate data carriers that the US forces do will be that the JSF starts to carry the can as being a primary node in the COP.

fewer JSF and with a less capable systems structure starts to put a greater burden on those few JSF

the problem is that there is still a traditional perspective on the JSF being a future fancy and advanced fighter when its moved way beyond that. Every foreign trainer attached to JSF training units is discovering that

the problem is that it still hasn't really filtered back into the media - even industry journals haven't fully gripped up the conops and tactical changes that the type has bought in

I'd suggest that any CONOPS written re JSF more than 3 years old is due for a significant update - and if decisions are still being made specifically on those aged CONOPS "compliance" vectors, then they're missing the boat.
 

hugin

New Member
I did a little searching. So Denmark has only 60 F-16A bought in the eighties as its fighter force? Are these unupgraded first generation Falcons in layman's terms?

EDIT: Oh, I found references to MLU versions. That makes sense.
May 4, 2016, The Defence Minister informs that the existing force is 37 block 15 and 7 block 10. You are right about MLU, but 27 F35 instead of 44 F16?
 

Toblerone

Banned Member
It seems that most smaller countries want a super-modernised small airforce with as much commonality as possible. Can't blame them.

But you'd better rely on your allies a lot because with a couple dozen aircraft you will not get anything done in a war. They will probably order more as they retire the F-16s.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
It seems that most smaller countries want a super-modernised small airforce with as much commonality as possible. Can't blame them.

But you'd better rely on your allies a lot because with a couple dozen aircraft you will not get anything done in a war. They will probably order more as they retire the F-16s.
Depending on the operating environment of a future war, I'd rather hang my hat on 27 F-35 than 44 F-16. Numbers aren't going to be much help if the aircraft aren't survivable.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It seems that most smaller countries want a super-modernised small airforce with as much commonality as possible. Can't blame them.

But you'd better rely on your allies a lot because with a couple dozen aircraft you will not get anything done in a war. They will probably order more as they retire the F-16s.
They may order more in due course, but I wouldn't presume to correlate peace-time availability rates with 'all in' war of national survival availability rates...

27 aircraft will support their required roles, under a particular set of strategic circumstances. They will still support their air policing and QRA missions, they will retain a deployable contingent capability ( ~ 6 fighters being the norm) for NATO / UN missions and their training and force development operations.

Granted they will have fewer numbers of flying aircraft, but they will have a far more capable aircraft with which to do those roles and as always, funding levels now, may not remain the same in future.

Australia planned on a fighter force of 71 aircraft until 2007. Then we added 24 Super Hornets and a dozen Growlers to that force. Now we are buying 72 F-35's and retaining the Super Hornet / Growler force.

So as always, plans change...
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Australia planned on a fighter force of 71 aircraft until 2007. Then we added 24 Super Hornets and a dozen Growlers to that force. Now we are buying 72 F-35's and retaining the Super Hornet / Growler force.

So as always, plans change...

For the RAAF Growler is the new capability as part of an electronic warfare capabilty increase, while it can self escort it not technically part of the attack fighter force per say of the original requirement.

Also the number's remain the same with Super Hornet F's they are a direct replacement for our strategic bomber force which could not be fully replicated, the F's are the most logical new aircraft choice without upgrading the F111's or a better broader longer range capability like second hand B1 Lancer, it's just by extension of the multi role capability of the new aircraft our fighter force has gained weight by default.

But as you say plans change depending on circumstances and you roll with the capability on hand. Our overall numbers are not changing with the arrival of JSF.
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
They may order more in due course, but I wouldn't presume to correlate peace-time availability rates with 'all in' war of national survival availability rates...

27 aircraft will support their required roles, under a particular set of strategic circumstances. They will still support their air policing and QRA missions, they will retain a deployable contingent capability ( ~ 6 fighters being the norm) for NATO / UN missions and their training and force development operations.

Granted they will have fewer numbers of flying aircraft, but they will have a far more capable aircraft with which to do those roles and as always, funding levels now, may not remain the same in future.

Australia planned on a fighter force of 71 aircraft until 2007. Then we added 24 Super Hornets and a dozen Growlers to that force. Now we are buying 72 F-35's and retaining the Super Hornet / Growler force.

So as always, plans change...
Agreed 100%. One could believe with those 27 networked into the other nations in the F35 force their true combat capability will be multiplied.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
For the RAAF Growler is the new capability as part of an electronic warfare capabilty increase, while it can self escort it not technically part of the attack fighter force per say of the original requirement.
The CONOPS for Growler has already evolved even though they're not active assets in service yet

they've already discovered new capabilities at both the solo and integrated multiplier level
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
That's why we bought (and are buying...) KC-30A...
Thank you for exemplifying why the F-35, while being more expensive to purchase, is less expensive to operate.

The F-35 can do alone what it takes a 4th gen striker, A2A escort, EW escort, and tanker(s) to do.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Flight Magazine has a piece on the Danish F-35 selection. Apparently they assessed their short list, F-35A, Typhoon and SH against set operational requirements to determine how well each type performed, how many would be needed and the estimated through life cost of ownership (a maximum and minimum band) for each type.

The F-35 was ranked at most capable, followed by the SH, with the Typhoon coming in last. Required numbers were determined to be 27, 34, 38 respectively, with the costs of ownership having the same rankings, 27 F-35s being cheapest and 38 Typhoons being the most expensive. What was interesting is although the F-35 had the greatest spread in cost of ownership (probably because there is less data available due to it being newer), the proposed F-35 fleets maximum estimated cost was still significantly lower than the minimum costs for the other two.

So basically fewer F-35s are required to conduct set operational requirements, the type is more capable and effective in conducting those missions and although, as a result fewer aircraft are needed to meet requirements, the cost of ownerships is significantly lower, meaning more than the 27 aircraft determined necessary to meet requirements, could actually be acquired for the money needed to do the job with SH or Typhoon.
 
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