F-35 First Flight Comments...

Grand Danois

Entertainer
KPl,

Some notes. 2 engagements and 8 missile limitation of the TOR is acknowledged. Replace with a more competent system like APAR + ESSM and it won't get through. So much for AMSTE vs a capable AAW vessel. :D

On the SDB. Optimal engagement is not when it starts to plunge in the 'blind cone' of the TOR toroid. It will still be gliding at 150 kts and not the probably correct M1.2+ when in it hits and penetrates the target.

Is the 'nose on' LO of the SDB 'good enough' against a capable radar at 10 km? Not sure I agree. But not in the industry, so what do I know.

Threat floor/trash fire, JASSM will lose some, of course.

Agree on how to take cruise missiles out.

Was it B.Smitty who would trade?

Anyhow, PGM development possibilites are endless.
 
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B.Smitty

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
It is not different from any other cruise missile to date. What is the track record of Tomahawk and Storm Shadow? It is in the end game the missile is most vulnerable.
Who have had TLAMs and Storm Shadows (and CALCMs) shot at them? The Iraqis? The Taliban? The Serbs? None would qualify as a high-end IADS of the type described here (S-300+, TOR, etc).

You're right that TERCOM is not a feature on JASSM. It is a low level flight missile, however, and has GPS/INS, which means it can do pretty well with a terrain database. I would assume this is the case, but don't know for sure.
Every terminal JASSM pic/vid I've seen has it coming in at a very steep dive angle - hardly a reminiscent of a low-level flight profile. As Kurt pointed out, it may need to do this for terminal seeker effectivness (not to mention warhead effectiveness).

A programme of 4,400 units tells me that there are some (a lot of!) targets out there that SDB/JDAM can't handle. Yup. that's 1 JASSM for every 5 SDB planned so far.
Of course there are. There are also targets that JASSM can't handle. That's why we have munitions like GBU-28. And frankly, the F-22 is better suited to carry this weapon anyway. Only the inboard hardpoints on the F-35 are 5000lb class rated (IIRC), and they'll prolly be stuck with tanks. The F-22 has four 5000lb-rated hardpoints, plus a much bigger wing and much higher T/Wt to handle large loadouts.

And regardless, JASSM would be an external carriage munition on both the F-22 (assuming the hardpoints were wired) and F-35.

That's right. And a fighter like the Eurofighter will do fine with its limited LO. E.g. UK has ordered 900 Storm Shadow. However, the F-35 still has all the flexibility that LO provides. It's multirole - has a lot of cards to play. Not a single failure point like F-22/SDB.
The F-35 can carry 2000lb class JDAMs, JSOW and WCMD internally. That's it's only advantage (that can't be easily had on a block-upgraded F-22).

So to remedy this deficiency if the F-35 were canceled, the USAF & USN would have to restart J-UCAS and upgrade their existing fleet of aircraft, in addition to buying a larger number of F-22s.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Who have had TLAMs and Storm Shadows (and CALCMs) shot at them? The Iraqis? The Taliban? The Serbs? None would qualify as a high-end IADS of the type described here (S-300+, TOR, etc).
We were talking trashfire envelopes. ;)

As for the rest: I surrender! Hail to the hallowed F-22! :p:
 
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B.Smitty

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
KPl,

Some notes. 2 engagements and 8 missile limitation of the TOR is acknowledged. Replace with a more competent system like APAR + ESSM and it won't get through. So much for AMSTE vs a capable AAW vessel. :D
So. Then both the F-22 and F-35 have to switch to external carriage JASSMs. Or forthcoming A2G capable AMRAAM/JDRADMs. Or air-launched hypersonics. Or whatever.

I fail to see how this is an advantage for the F-35.

On the SDB. Optimal engagement is not when it starts to plunge in the 'blind cone' of the TOR toroid. It will still be gliding at 150 kts and not the probably correct M1.2+ when in it hits and penetrates the target.
No, I believe what Kurt is saying is that an SDB dropped from a Raptor at 50kft/M1.4+ may glide for a long distance and STILL be above the max altitude of TOR before it tips over and dives in at M1.2.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Of course there are. There are also targets that JASSM can't handle. That's why we have munitions like GBU-28. And frankly, the F-22 is better suited to carry this weapon anyway. Only the inboard hardpoints on the F-35 are 5000lb class rated (IIRC), and they'll prolly be stuck with tanks. The F-22 has four 5000lb-rated hardpoints, plus a much bigger wing and much higher T/Wt to handle large loadouts.
What combat scenerio do you see the F-22 EVER using external hard-points? They are far too expensive to make them vulnerable in such a fashion. Let the bombers and cheaper strike aircraft do that job.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
No, I believe what Kurt is saying is that an SDB dropped from a Raptor at 50kft/M1.4+ may glide for a long distance and STILL be above the max altitude of TOR before it tips over and dives in at M1.2.
I guess you've never heard of a little thing called terminal velocity... :rolleyes:
 

Occum

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
What combat scenerio do you see the F-22 EVER using external hard-points? They are far too expensive to make them vulnerable in such a fashion. Let the bombers and cheaper strike aircraft do that job.
Precisely why Australia should procure the F-22 and retain the F-111s, Errol, and why your namesake should never have listened to the anti-Pig lobby.

Far less expensive and far more capable than upgrading the Bugs or, moreover, buying/leasing Super Bugs as the boys are now intending because the risks in the JSF Program, identified back in 2001/02, are now materialising.

Do the math and the Op Analysis. I am sure you will agree.

;)
 

swerve

Super Moderator
It is not different from any other cruise missile to date. What is the track record of Tomahawk and Storm Shadow? It is in the end game the missile is most vulnerable.
IIRC Storm Shadow has a 100% record in action so far, but the number used is not large, & the defence was disorganised.

Predicting the route isn't easy. Storm Shadow & Taurus (I don't know about JASSM, but I expect that, too) can navigate via several waypoints. The next jink is unpredictable. About all you can be sure of is that they'll probably avoid any of your air defences they know about.

According to the manufacturers, Storm Shadow & Taurus can both fly very low, climb immediately before reaching the target, then dive on it (but don't have to - it's programmable). Maybe JASSM can do the same?
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
IIRC Storm Shadow has a 100% record in action so far, but the number used is not large, & the defence was disorganised.

Predicting the route isn't easy. Storm Shadow & Taurus (I don't know about JASSM, but I expect that, too) can navigate via several waypoints. The next jink is unpredictable. About all you can be sure of is that they'll probably avoid any of your air defences they know about.

According to the manufacturers, Storm Shadow & Taurus can both fly very low, climb immediately before reaching the target, then dive on it (but don't have to - it's programmable). Maybe JASSM can do the same?
JASSM is supposed to be the most advanced of the three, though, so it would on that note make sense. IIRC Taurus is the only one with TERCOM ie redundant navigation. Otherwise, I gather advanced in this context means VLO and development spirals.

According to defense-update on JASSM:

The missile is designed to fly low-level terrain following flight path, which enables effective bypassing of most enemy defenses. The advantages of its low observable properties ensure its survivability during the missile ingress to the target. The missile is also prepared to engage enemy jammers.
 

Kurt Plummer

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #112
Grand Danois,
It's not that we're so 'terribly proud' of the F-22. Though I am undoubtedly a fan. It's that it handles the American Problem of expeditionary airpower much better.
We face (and have always faced) a much different problem of getting to the target area from much greater distances than our European cousins plan for and so we have to do more with each sortie. That means that the mission effects of munitions on target, on time, with fewer airframe losses have to be explicit and guaranteed.
Or we don't win the airwar.
The F-22 helps with this because it has the physical performance to defeat most 'random encounters' with 20-something generation SAMs. And can further use this highly supersonic EM capability in combination with _reduced tanking requirements_ to get to the combat area more quickly from the same radius start point.
It being the latter effect which most people discount even before they start to make kill-mechanism:kill-mechanism comparisons.
Because if you only have 2-4 F-22 going into enemy airspace every hour or so, you can effectively 'rezero the radii datum' to reflect a from-base-to-fence. And from-fence-to-releasepoint. And from fence to homeplate again.
So that the Raptor can 'leg it' quickly to the 600nm point at which it needs a tanker '1 way'. Then advance throttles to /really step out/ as it enters enemy airspace. At which point, the GBU-39 become 'another 80-100nm' (given the F-15E barge attack reached 55nm from a subsonic launch) of effective radius while the _unengaged_ F-22 turns and goes back for a drink before heading home, some 3,500lbs worth of A2G munitions lighter. And only 2hrs into a 3.5hr sortie length.
All told, this 'fast is as leg segments does' is the only way to fight an 800-1,000nm radius war in places like SWA. Because it means you are able to leverage a smaller number of strikers with a smaller number of tankers to a LOWER overall launch platform risk.
Comparitively, the F-35, with a subsonic cruise to the target area almost a guarantee (at around .51-.55 T/Wr on a 460 square foot wing area) is going to operate on longrange missions almost as if it was doing a fighter-drag (tanker deployment to theater) with multiple hookups enroute and multiple support platforms further slowing up the pace of the mission to the 'slowest man' .85 marching level. So that '10-15 hours later' it will be finishing up the it's first sortie of the day.
THIS is what differentiates the JSF from the F-22 in the most negative fashion.
Because to match the F-22 for radius-at-speed generation of daily sorties, you have to double the number of F-35 in-theater. At least. And then double the tankers to service it. And add in another 20% for the EA-18s and F-16CJs to make it viable as an all-LO _target area penetrator_ without external DEAD/EA options to be sure it doesn't fatally step on any snakes.
And we can't afford that anymore than we can count on 'allied' export sales to make up the force numbers when those foreign orders are themselves (in total) insufficient to make up for the JSFs that have already been lost to OUR inventory through USAF/USMC/USN cost reductions.
I will agree that, for a lot of missions, the F-22 is a platinum plated diamond sledgehammer to strike a gnat with. But then, the last time we bought an F-22 'as a singleton bonus' to Lockheed for their efforts to improve the line efficiencies (FY 2003) it cost us 117 million dollars. Then Congress, in a fit of embarrassment, 'closed the loophole'.
While, according to this-
>
Funding and Projected Costs
The Defense Department’s quarterly Selected Acquisition Report (SAR) of
December 31, 2005, estimated the JSF programat$276,458.9 million in current-year
dollars for 2,458 aircraft, which equates to a program unit acquisition cost (PUAC)
of $112.4 million per aircraft in then-year dollars (accounting for inflation). The
average procurement cost (APUC) (which does not include R&D or other "sunk"
costs) is estimated at $94.8 million per aircraft in then-year dollars. The December
2005 SAR also notes that the JSF program has breached a "Nunn-McCurdy" cost
growth limit: unit cost growth over 30% of the original Acquisition Program
Baseline. The latest PUAC and APUC cost estimates are, respectively, 32.8% and
31.3% higher than cost estimates made in October 2001
>
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL30563.pdf
The JSF is already only 5 million dollars less than our 'best single airframe price' on a MUCH more capable platform. And has yet to even fly it's production configuration (something which won't happen until late 2008 or early 2009, after SDD->production decision).
Add to this, the simple fact that DOD is already in contempt of Congress-
>
Congress has in the past directed the formation of joint program offices to ensure
commonality between the services’ UAV programs. Congress has also expressed
concern that DOD’s "growing enthusiasm may well lead to a situation in which there
is no clear path toward the future of UAVs", and so has required DOD to submit a
UAV roadmap.5 In some instances, Congress has advocated a more aggressive
approach to fielding UAVs. For example, in 1996, the House Armed Services
Committee (HASC) supported legislation directing DOD to weaponize both the
Predator and Hunter, but DOD opposed the initiative.6 The scope of Congress’s
support and confidence in UAV technology can be gleaned from the National
Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2001, which stated that, "Within ten years,
one-third of U.S. military operational deep strike aircraft will be unmanned."7
>
http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL31872.pdf
And we are in 'a pickle of an opportunity'. One whereby we can say to the the military: "YOU lost this war. YOU were asked on multiple occasions what was needed to make it work and YOU never said 'more troops, more planes, more everything'." As a not-our-Vietnam problem. And then back that with a policy shift that has some serious _teeth_ (no more BUR R&M back scratching) in setting aright our wardebt by killing programs that are maximum-visibility seen as 'needlessly cost intensive'. And that program, right now, is _not_ the F-22. It is the F-35.
CONCLUSION:
2003 was a banner year in a lot of ways. Because it was also the last time we had any real positive intel on the whereabouts of UBL. Indeed, early in January or February of that year we were told "He will be coming down one of three trails." And having _but one_ Predator, we took our best shot. And he rolled the dice and scored a lucky miss.
Such is the kind of warfighting capability that is absent in our military today. Such is the capability which is ESSENTIAL because it is CHEAP on both an acquisition and DCO basis of $:flying hour. It is NOT inherent to either the F-22. Or the F-35. Because as soon as you put a baby onboard an airframe, it instantly becomes limited by HIS 8-10hr limiter as much as their own SFC hangtime efficiencies.
Again, the USAF and indeed _all_ the Air Services KNOW THIS. And have refused (as they did in 1996, when 'asked nicely' to arm the Predator, causing us to miss UBL /again/ in 1998 and 2000) to undertake the necessary steps to keep up with the changing pace of warfare. i.e. To do their JOB.
The way to set them back on a 'you work for us' track is to TELL THEM: "Five hundred of any manned jet you wish, per service. The rest will be a shared pool of UAVs and Cruise."
I guarantee you the USAF will choose the Raptor in the hand over the JSF in the bush. Simply because they ARE a boys club of 'fighter pilots'.
Even as I _know for a fact_ that the USN would prefer a Lot III Hornet over the money pit that the F-35C has become.
Which leaves only Congress itself to be convinced. And they're easy: "If we build the F-35, the French will build a miltiarized Grand Duc and endrun us. At which point, our 'cheaper than gen-4' fighter will be competing with a gen-6 UCAV that costs one quarter as much on the export market. And we will never see 500 F-35 exports. Let alone 2,000+." Absent the smell of money, our great hall of kings will tuck their corkscrew tails between their legs and RUN for their red-ink pen to create program termination legislation 'for cause'.
Which will itself be simple to justify because the JSF is not within costs. And it doesn't meet LEGAL requirements for a 1/3rd unmanned force structure by 2011.

KPl.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
It's not that we're so 'terribly proud' of the F-22. Though I am undoubtedly a fan. It's that it handles the American Problem of expeditionary airpower much better.
We face (and have always faced) a much different problem of getting to the target area from much greater distances than our European cousins plan for and so we have to do more with each sortie. That means that the mission effects of munitions on target, on time, with fewer airframe losses have to be explicit and guaranteed.
Or we don't win the airwar.
The F-22 helps with this because it has the physical performance to defeat most 'random encounters' with 20-something generation SAMs. And can further use this highly supersonic EM capability in combination with _reduced tanking requirements_ to get to the combat area more quickly from the same radius start point.
It being the latter effect which most people discount even before they start to make kill-mechanism:kill-mechanism comparisons.
Because if you only have 2-4 F-22 going into enemy airspace every hour or so, you can effectively 'rezero the radii datum' to reflect a from-base-to-fence. And from-fence-to-releasepoint. And from fence to homeplate again.
So that the Raptor can 'leg it' quickly to the 600nm point at which it needs a tanker '1 way'. Then advance throttles to /really step out/ as it enters enemy airspace. At which point, the GBU-39 become 'another 80-100nm' (given the F-15E barge attack reached 55nm from a subsonic launch) of effective radius while the _unengaged_ F-22 turns and goes back for a drink before heading home, some 3,500lbs worth of A2G munitions lighter. And only 2hrs into a 3.5hr sortie length.
All told, this 'fast is as leg segments does' is the only way to fight an 800-1,000nm radius war in places like SWA. Because it means you are able to leverage a smaller number of strikers with a smaller number of tankers to a LOWER overall launch platform risk.
Comparitively, the F-35, with a subsonic cruise to the target area almost a guarantee (at around .51-.55 T/Wr on a 460 square foot wing area) is going to operate on longrange missions almost as if it was doing a fighter-drag (tanker deployment to theater) with multiple hookups enroute and multiple support platforms further slowing up the pace of the mission to the 'slowest man' .85 marching level. So that '10-15 hours later' it will be finishing up the it's first sortie of the day.
THIS is what differentiates the JSF from the F-22 in the most negative fashion.
Because to match the F-22 for radius-at-speed generation of daily sorties, you have to double the number of F-35 in-theater. At least. And then double the tankers to service it. And add in another 20% for the EA-18s and F-16CJs to make it viable as an all-LO _target area penetrator_ without external DEAD/EA options to be sure it doesn't fatally step on any snakes.
For the record, I agreed on this one all along and that's why effectiveness of kill mechanisms went to the fore early on.

Guess I have an European outlook then.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
... But then, the last time we bought an F-22 'as a singleton bonus' to Lockheed for their efforts to improve the line efficiencies (FY 2003) it cost us 117 million dollars. Then Congress, in a fit of embarrassment, 'closed the loophole'.
While, according to this-
>
Funding and Projected Costs
The Defense Department’s quarterly Selected Acquisition Report (SAR) of
December 31, 2005, estimated the JSF programat$276,458.9 million in current-year
dollars for 2,458 aircraft, which equates to a program unit acquisition cost (PUAC)
of $112.4 million per aircraft in then-year dollars (accounting for inflation). The
average procurement cost (APUC) (which does not include R&D or other "sunk"
costs) is estimated at $94.8 million per aircraft in then-year dollars. The December
2005 SAR also notes that the JSF program has breached a "Nunn-McCurdy" cost
growth limit: unit cost growth over 30% of the original Acquisition Program
Baseline. The latest PUAC and APUC cost estimates are, respectively, 32.8% and
31.3% higher than cost estimates made in October 2001
>
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL30563.pdf
The JSF is already only 5 million dollars less than our 'best single airframe price' on a MUCH more capable platform. And has yet to even fly it's production configuration (something which won't happen until late 2008 or early 2009, after SDD->production decision).
...
KPl.
Different price bases. The PUAC includes development & other fixed costs, some of which have already been spent for the F-35 (I know, most have been spent for the F-22). And that $117mn may be what Lockheed Martin got, but it isn't what the USAF paid. At a "flyaway" price of under $130 mn for an F-22, the unit acquisition cost for the USAF was about $175 mn, excluding fixed costs. The lowest that's forecast to fall to is ca $160 mn. That's the real cost of adding one more F-22 to the inventory. Also, these are current prices. The F-35 PUAC & APUC are "then-year" prices, and include forecast inflation between now & when the money is spent, i.e. over ten years in the future, on average. In 2006$ the PUAC & APUC are forecast at about $92 mn & $78 mn respectively.

Sound point about the F-35 not having yet flown (or even been assembled!) in production configuration, though. F-22 costs are known, while F-35 costs are only forecast.
 

phreeky

Active Member
The Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] F-35 Lightning II lifted into the skies today for the first time, completing a successful inaugural flight and initiating the most comprehensive flight test program in military aviation history.

"The Lightning II performed beautifully," said F-35 Chief Pilot Jon Beesley following the flight. "What a great start for the flight-test program, and a testimony to the people who have worked so hard to make this happen." The most powerful engine ever placed in a fighter aircraft – the Pratt & Whitney F135 turbofan, with 40,000 pounds of thrust – effortlessly pushed the F-35 skyward.

The flight of the conventional takeoff and landing (CTOL) F-35 variant began at 12:44 p.m. CST at Lockheed Martin in Fort Worth, Texas, when the jet lifted off and began a climb-out to 15,000 feet. Beesley then performed a series of maneuvers to test aircraft handling and the operation of the engine and subsystems. He returned for a landing at 1:19 p.m CST. Two F 16s and an F/A-18 served as chase aircraft.

The stealthy F-35 is a supersonic, multi-role, 5TH Generation fighter designed to replace a wide range of existing aircraft, including AV-8B Harriers, A-10s, F-16s, F/A-18 Hornets and United Kingdom Harrier GR.7s and Sea Harriers.

"The first flight of the F-35 Lightning II is an historic moment because, for the first time ever, we are seeing the dawn of an aircraft with all the 5TH Generation attributes – including advanced stealth, fighter agility, sensor fusion and greatly improved supportability – combined in an affordable package," said Ralph Heath, president of Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co. "The F-35 will be the most advanced and most capable multi-role fighter on the international market for many, many years to come."

Dan Crowley, Lockheed Martin executive vice president and general manager of the F-35 program, said the aircraft has continued to meet or exceed expectations during its assembly and pre-flight checkouts. It has now embarked on a 12,000-hour flight-test program designed to validate tens of thousands of hours of testing already completed in F-35 laboratories. "The F-35 will enter service as the most exhaustively tested, most thoroughly proven fighter system in history," Crowley said. "And thanks to its all-digital design, an exceptionally talented international engineering team and the world’s best assemblers and mechanics, the F-35 has completely rewritten the book on fighter assembly precision and quality."

The United States and eight international partners are involved in the F-35’s funding and development. The U.S. Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps, and the United Kingdom’s Royal Air Force and Royal Navy plan to acquire a total of 2,581 F-35s. Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Australia, Denmark and Norway also are partners in the program and are expected to add about 700 more aircraft to the total. F-35 sales to other international customers could push the final number of aircraft to 4,500 or beyond.

"We believe the F-35 is poised to become the world standard-bearer of fighter aircraft," said Tom Burbage, Lockheed Martin executive vice president and general manager of F-35 program integration.

Three versions of the F-35 are under development: a conventional takeoff and landing (CTOL) variant for conventional runways, a short takeoff/vertical landing (STOVL) variant for operating off small ships and near front-line combat zones, and a carrier variant (CV) for catapult launches and arrested recoveries on board the U.S. Navy’s large aircraft carriers.

Lockheed Martin is developing the F-35 Lightning II with its principal industrial partners, Northrop Grumman and BAE Systems. Two separate, interchangeable F-35 engines are under development: the Pratt & Whitney F135 and the GE Rolls-Royce Fighter Engine Team F136.

Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin employs about 140,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services. The corporation reported 2005 sales of $37.2 billion.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/pressrelease/F-35.html
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
This might sound really silly, but how does the project progress from here? Obviously the test is very important as it shows the plane can fly - and it allows for the collection of test-data. But what comes after this before mass production starts and how long will the various stages take?
 

phreeky

Active Member
I'm no engineer (well, maybe the software type), but...

The REAL data that could have been, and would have been, collected from this flight would be huge in quantity and importance, and no doubt a lot of simulations and calculations will be made to find areas of improvement, or places where there is "room to move" to allow a compromise to be made etc.

By my guess it'd be a risk-driven set of iterations to eliminate them - identify high risks, work out how to solve them, test the theory, and move onto the next. Wish I was involved, and I'd be interested in hearing from those who have been involved in such a major and complex project from a planning point of view.
 

B.Smitty

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I guess you've never heard of a little thing called terminal velocity... :rolleyes:
According to this,

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/mmc.htm

the minimum desired impact velocity for an SDB is 1100ft/sec against a target requiring penetration. That's nearly Mach 1.

Now it's unclear, at different start speeds and altitudes, how far it can glide and still achieve this.

Here's a nice, little backgrounder on SDB.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2006psa_apr/justice.pdf

Actually, there's an interesting little chart on page 3 of the above pdf, buried in the overall graphic, showing the tip-over profile. When dropped from 35kft (and presumably ~M0.85), the tip-over appears to take place at around 10-15kft. So seems reasonable that if it's dropped from 50kt @ M1.5, the tip-over could be much higher (unless this causes problems with terminal control and guidance).
 
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Big-E

Banned Member
Now it's unclear, at different start speeds and altitudes, how far it can glide and still achieve this.
It is not dropped at M1.4 as you suggested earlier. It glides at 150-60knts and tips over to reach it's terminal velocity... whatever that may be and it's not M1.2. It most definetly is sub-sonic as the drag coefficient is too great and the mass is not enough to break the sound barrier. It does it's little acrobatics to pick up speed but it can't break the laws of physics.

an SDB dropped from a Raptor at 50kft/M1.4+ may glide for a long distance and STILL be above the max altitude of TOR before it tips over and dives in at M1.2.
 
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