Brazilian Naval Strength

[Spacearrow99]

If the Brazilians have any sense then they'll spread the deal around a bit - the French have lost at least one deal in the past by trying to lump everything into a single agreement.

I have to admit, both Fincantieri and DCNS have both shown better marketing flair in the past than anything BAE have demonstrated.

I doubt BAE can swing a carrier deal however - ACA doesn't come with a tremendous gloss I suspect (although I do feel they've delivered everything they've been funded for and asked to do)

I do suspect you'll see a few vendors involved - you could easily see a wing of French aircraft flying off Italian carriers, escorted by UK frigates, specified with Euro AA missiles, UK local area defence and French anti shipping missiles, supported by Thales UK surface to air missiles, covered by DCNS subs.

Considering that Brazil would to pay all the development costs for a Italian built carrier, I highly doubt that scenario. And CATOBAR expertise DCNS has over the other vendors. But like I said, F-X2 program will be a barometer on which way the Brazilians are going. If the Super Hornet wins I think the deals would be split, but If the Rafale wins Brazil could very will go with French for most of its naval procurements projects.

 

[swerve]

I think the Brazilians are wary of having too many eggs in one basket, so if they buy Rafale, they're more likely to split naval contracts, not less. They're already buying French submarines. I suspect that a French carrier would mean British or Italian frigates, to avoid too much dependence on one supplier.

 

[Spacearrow99]

I think the Brazilians are wary of having too many eggs in one basket, so if they buy Rafale, they're more likely to split naval contracts, not less. They're already buying French submarines. I suspect that a French carrier would mean British or Italian frigates, to avoid too much dependence on one supplier.

Yeah, But this isn't a Russia- India or Russia-China relationship. So they could split the contracts, but France and Brazil very close ties.

 

[RobWilliams]

F-X2 program will be a barometer on which way the Brazilians are going. If the Super Hornet wins I think the deals would be split, but If the Rafale wins Brazil could very will go with French for most of its naval procurements projects.

It's interesting that you neglected the Gripen, an aircraft which - in my opinion - is the best selection for Brazil as it's a more cost effective aircraft, favours the smaller carrier (Gipen NG will be both CATOBAR + STOBAR capable) and offers the sort of indiginous industrial input which you simply wouldn't get with the other 2, the last being a highly valuable quality to Brazil.

Not to mention that it's actually a pretty nice aircraft to boot.

When you actually look at the history of the F-X2 program, the "favoured" choice of the FAB bounces around alot.

 

[Spacearrow99]

It's interesting that you neglected the Gripen, an aircraft which - in my opinion - is the best selection for Brazil as it's a more cost effective aircraft, favours the smaller carrier (Gipen NG will be both CATOBAR + STOBAR capable) and offers the sort of indiginous industrial input which you simply wouldn't get with the other 2, the last being a highly valuable quality to Brazil.

Not to mention that it's actually a pretty nice aircraft to boot.

When you actually look at the history of the F-X2 program, the "favoured" choice of the FAB bounces around alot.

The Gripen NG may very well win the F-X2 competition.

 

[1805]

1. They don't want STOBAR. They want cat & trap. Nobody has convincingly demonstrated the feasibility of fixed-wing AEW & COD using STOBAR, & Brazil has & wants to keep both. Brazil also wants full performance from its carrier combat aircraft.

2. We can't lend them one, since they won't have any aircraft which will be able to use our carriers. They may be able to take off using the ski-jump, but they won't be able to land because of the lack of arrestor gear.

3. It doesn't matter how many other arguments in support of CVF you muster if it falls over on 1). That is the killer.


As for India's carrier, it really does have nothing to do with the Italians, & there is no parallel with Gorshkov. In case you've forgotten, that was a rebuild of a damaged & neglected ship with no co-operation from the builders. IAC is a new build.

The delays are all in build, which India is doing. The Italians were hired for design. The first (& long) delay was because the Indians couldn't get steel of the right grade. The Russians couldn't supply it, & India didn't have a mill able to make steel of that grade. They had to acquire the ability to make the steel before they could start building. I think the Italians offered to source steel from abroad (Italian mills could have delivered quickly), but the Indians refused, perhaps because of price. There's also been failure to fund construction steadily, leading to stop-start, booking another ship into the building dock so the hull has had to be floated out incomplete, and so on.

As I said, nothing to do with the Italians.

Why would Embraer want to slit its own throat by shackling itself to BAe?


It's been explained to you how Fincantieri has already helped design a bigger Cavour derivative, with arresting gear. It can turn out one on its own rather easily. The only complication is modifying the design for catapults. BTW, Fincantieri & DCNS both have lower build costs than BAe.


Count again.

British designed or build: Nine frigates, one training ship, two landing ships, two minesweepers used as patrol craft, two survey ships. Three OPVs just bought because Trinidad didn't want to accept them.

Others: One aircraft carrier (French), five submarines (German design) plus four ordered (French), five corvettes (Brazilian), two landing ships (USA), two tankers (Brazil), about 30 patrol vessels & minesweepers (plus four French-designed building), & at least 15 auxiliaries.

Plus a large fleet of river vessels, including auxiliaries (tanker, hospital ship, etc), none of which are British.

I was not being 100% serious with the 2nd part of my last post. The point I was trying to get across is we should never give up.

The Italians have no advantage over the UK in this respect. I agree it is likely to go CATOBAR, steam cat are going to be and issue with a GT powered ship.

Relatonship will be important and I meant to say the UK had built a large share of the surface fleet (warships not aux/rowing boats and harbour tugs).

That said France is all over Brazil and the SSN/Rafale are critical for the carrier. It is not inconcievable the French might even win them over to a nuclear powered carrier (cat issue. long life of the ships, fuel cost etc.). A class of 3; a 2nd MN, Brazilian, repalcement for CDG 2030s.

I also have a low view of BAEs export effort to date, but they must be getting very worried with their current position and they have been told to sell Type 26.

One key adavntage is, people struggle with paper concepts, a CVF excercising with the Brazilian Navy might change everything. I don't believe the quote for the CATOBAR conversion of the CVF;, there will have been other things going on in the background there, maybe more relevant to the RN thread.

 

[Spacearrow99]

I was not being 100% serious with the 2nd part of my last post. The point I was trying to get across is we should never give up.

The Italians have no advantage over the UK is this respect. I agree it is likely to go CATOBAR, steam cat are going to be and issue with a GT powered ship.

Relatonship will be important and I meant to say the UK had built a large share of the surface fleet (warships not aux/rowing boats and harbour tugs).

That said France is all over Brazil and the SSN/Rafale are critical for the carrier. It is not inconcievable the French might even win them over to a nuclear powered carrier (cat issue. long life of the ships, fuel cost etc.). A class of 3; a 2nd MN, Brazilian, repalcement for CDG 2030s.

I also have a low view of BAEs export effort to date, but they must be getting very worried with their current position and the have been told to sell Type 26.

One key adavntage is, people struggle with paper concepts, a CVF excercising with the Brazilian Navy might change everything. I don't believe the quote for the CATOBAR coversion of the CVF, there will have been other things going on in the background there, maybe more relevant to the RN thread.

I think they will buy Super Hornets. The Gripen NG is very good aircaft. But the U.S. and France are two of Brazil's best allies Sweden its not. And usually the U. S. gets its share of defense contracts. Also France already has Scorpene and EC725 deals.

 

[1805]

I think they will buy Super Hornets. The Gripen NG is very good aircaft. But the U.S. and France are two of Brazil's best allies Sweden its not. And usually the U. S. gets its share of defense contracts. Also France already has Scorpene and EC725 deals.

I think counter trade will play a part aswell, more so that industrial involvement in the actual aircraft. My feel would be Rafale because the French want it so much and it's worth more to them, so they will price accordingly. The frigates BAE should be in a stronger position, but they need to work hard at it.

They should be looking at all of the Brazilian hot buttons/needs (counter trade etc); its a pity the 155mm/Mk8 conversion is dead, Brazil is the largest operator outside the RN, maybe they should offer it to Brazil, it might even get the RN back in the game.

 

[RobWilliams]

I believe the Oto 127/64 would be more than enough in that regard, especially with Vulcano. The FREMM as standard is fitted with a 76mm, only the Italian "land attack" variant has been put down as carrying the 127/64.

For the T26 it will be as standard (either the Oto or BAE 127mm, AFAIK no official choice has been made yet) so that'd be handy.

 

[swerve]

I think counter trade will play a part aswell, more so that industrial involvement in the actual aircraft. ...

They should be looking at all of the Brazilian hot buttons/needs (counter trade etc); its a pity the 155mm/Mk8 conversion is dead, Brazil is the largest operator outside the RN, maybe they should offer it to Brazil, it might even get the RN back in the game.

Brazil has a trade surplus, & is far more concerned about technology transfer than counter-trade in general. Where the Brazilians are interested in counter-trade is in rather narrow areas. For example, they'd love to sell more KC-390 - but there's no chance of the RAF buying that. Sweden might, though. It has some old C-130s, including one tanker. They've just been refurbished, but that won't keep them going forever.

The 155mm Mk8 is dead. Brazil won't be the launch customer for a gun the RN isn't buying. Too expensive, too risky. Apart from BNS Barroso, the Brazilian ships with 4.5" guns were built from 1975 to 1994. They're meant to be replaced by whatever new type is selected. Fiddling around with guns to keep the old mounts would cost a lot more than it would save - so why bother?

 

[RobWilliams]

Note: read at your own risk, it's a news outlet sourcing a news outlet sourcing a Brazilian air force document about the F-X2 tender.

Brazil leaning for the US F-18 Super Hornet fighter bomber, says Sao Paulo media — MercoPress

The weekly magazine published a document it attributes to the commission in charge of analyzing the three aircraft, which concludes that the Boeing F-18 is best suited to air force requirements and notes several of its advantages in terms of price and benefits.

According to the document, the least costly of the three jets being tendered is the Gripen of the Swedish firm Saab, the entire fleet being offered for 4.3 billion dollars.

However “this is an aircraft still in development and has never been tried in combat”, the commission said.

In the case of the Rafale from the French company Dassault, the 36 aircraft would cost 8.2 billion, while the Boeing F-18s would entail an outlay of 5.4 billion dollars.

According to the magazine, what goes against choosing the Rafale jets aside from its initial price is the fact that an hour's flight costs some 20.000 dollars, compared with 10.000 for the F-18s.

Not going to comment on the fact that apparently the F-18 is "the favourite", IIRC that's been flipped around from the Gripen to the Rafale and now the F-18 so I'm not interested in that at all.

What I am interested in however, is the apparent numbers the manufacturers have put down for their offers for 36 aircraft.

• Dassault - $8.2bn
• Boeing - $5.4bn
• Saab - $4.3bn

Bit weird, IIRC the India MMRCA tender was something like $14bn for ~120 aircraft? so $8.2bn seems REALLY steep for 36, i smell BS.

 

[swerve]

Those numbers came out a long time ago, IIRC, & were promptly challenged by Dassault. I think this is old news that someone has re-hashed.

The "Boeing has agreed to technology transfer" was rubbished at the time, because it isn't up to Boeing. It has to seek official permission, which hadn't (& still hasn't) been granted*, while the governments of France, Sweden & the UK (relevant for Gripen NG sensors) had all promised to give the desired permissions.


*Some very vague assurances have been given, but not by the people who can block it.

 

[StobieWan]

Yep - Dassault had revised their bid downwards by a large chunk after that. Transfer of technology also affects the engine on the Gripen as that's a US chunk of kit so really, the Rafale is the nearest thing to a solid deal if ToT is a *must*.

 

[swerve]

The US engine seems to be pretty solid. Export is obviously no problem (same engine in the F-18E), & it isn't a pure US product, but part Swedish. Volvo parts would go in any F414s sold with the F-18E. What Volvo can transfer is potentially limited by the USA, but the Brazilians can probably live with that, as long as they're getting all the other goodies promised with Gripen. IIRC it was rated highest for Brazilian industrial participation in the Brazilian evaluation.

 

[RobWilliams]

I reckon the issue about ToT for Brazil isn't that the US won't sell them the equipment - all parties really want this sale - but that if they try to develop some kind of indiginous fighter aircraft (which seems like the ultimate aim i think?) from the F-X2 program then Brazil might not be keen on any future fighter having ANY US tech in it to prevent the US from blocking any potential export sales.

Like the Tucano, AFAIK the US pressured Brazil not to sell those Tucanos to Venezuela using the grounds that there were US components in the engine i think. Now I know there's a political backstory to it but that's not the point, the point is that's the sort of thing that Brazil wants to avoid completely and really the only way to avoid that is the Rafale.

That being said, I still believe the beneficial industrial results for Brazil from the Gripen is more than enough to deal with the US content in the engine.

 

[swerve]

...
That being said, I still believe the beneficial industrial results for Brazil from the Gripen is more than enough to deal with the US content in the engine.

Agreed.

 

[StobieWan]

I reckon the issue about ToT for Brazil isn't that the US won't sell them the equipment - all parties really want this sale - but that if they try to develop some kind of indiginous fighter aircraft (which seems like the ultimate aim i think?) from the F-X2 program then Brazil might not be keen on any future fighter having ANY US tech in it to prevent the US from blocking any potential export sales.

Like the Tucano, AFAIK the US pressured Brazil not to sell those Tucanos to Venezuela using the grounds that there were US components in the engine i think. Now I know there's a political backstory to it but that's not the point, the point is that's the sort of thing that Brazil wants to avoid completely and really the only way to avoid that is the Rafale.

That being said, I still believe the beneficial industrial results for Brazil from the Gripen is more than enough to deal with the US content in the engine.

I'd like to see Gripen NG get an order for sure - and the Gripen is designed to be turned around by conscript ground crews with little experience and training - which sounds to be honest, like a huge tick in the box....

 

[RobWilliams]

So LAAD has begun in Brazil today and a couple of articles about what's on offer are already coming out.

Here's a couple that caught my eye

Brazil reveals submarine design details

LAAD 2013: Brazil reveals submarine design details - News - Shephard

The PWR reactor design for the Brazilian Navy’s future nuclear-powered submarine (SN-Br) has been completed.

A model of the design, known as the 2131-R, and an actual-size combustion element were on display at the navy’s stand at the LAAD exhibition in Rio de Janeiro.

A spokesperson from the Brazilian Navy told Shephard that the reactor design had been completed with assistance from France but that the reactor itself would be built in Brazil at a later date.

The navy had two separate designs of the SN-Br on display at the stand. A model from the navy’s technology centre in Sao Paulo showed a submarine divided into seven blocks with the PWR reactor positioned amidships eight torpedoes situated at the front of the boat.

Navy literature showed a second design with just two torpedo tubes but including six vertical launch missile tubes in the front section of the boat. This version is to displace 4,000t and have a length of 100m and diameter of 9.8m.

The nuclear-powered submarine is being built at part of the navy’s PROSUB programme under a contract signed between Brazil and France in 2008 for $4.25 billion. As well as the SN-Br, the programme will also see acquisition of four conventionally powered diesel-electric submarines (known as S-Br) based on an enlarged 75m-long 2,000t design for the Scorpene submarine built by DCNS.

I've made bold the parts that I found most interesting, the 8 torpedos number isn't well explained and the picture supplied isn't the best either. At first I thought it could be 8 torp tubes, or a 8 torp magazine (but that'd be stupid), but the MORE interesting design was the second one written about; only 2 torpedo tubes and 6 VLS.

Bit unorthodox really isn't it? IIRC the plan for using these SSNs was to protect the Brazilian coast so surface attack via cruise missile seems a bit different as does the rather small amount of torp tubes, unless Brazil is planning to become more active in the global scale where hucking some cruise missiles would be valuable, and presumably they will buy MdCN for that capability due to them working with DCNS on the design.

Still, it'll be an interesting transition to see, good luck to them I say.

Then there's the second article

DCNS reveals Brazilian carrier design

LAAD 2013: DCNS reveals Brazilian carrier design - News - Shephard

DCNS is offering an adapted version of its PA2 design for a future Brazilian aircraft carrier.

A model of a 60,000t displacement 285m-long PA2 carrier is being shown by the company at the LAAD exhibition in Rio de Janeiro.

Eric Perrot, DCNS surface ships project director, told Shephard that the Brazilian Navy had plans to acquire one or two new aircraft carriers to replace their existing carrier, NAe Sao Paulo, after 2025.

The Brazilian Navy released a request for proposals (RfP) in 2012 for specifications for aircraft carriers and Perrot said that DCNS along with several other companies had responded with the PA2 design. He said that because in the past Brazil had purchased second-hand carriers, a specifications outline had not been required until now.

Perrot noted that following the collapse of the BAE Systems-DCNS collaboration on aircraft carrier design, the French company had continued the design work and produced the PA2 design with conventional propulsion and a catapult assisted launch and recovery system.

‘From the French side, we see the future is with the catapult system and the Brazilian Navy has a history of using catapult-launched aircraft,’ Perrot said.

The Brazilian Navy operates the F-4 Skyhawk carrier-based aircraft, which are being upgraded by Embraer, but long-term the aircraft will be replaced. However, it is not expected to select a replacement until the Brazilian Air Force has chosen its next generation fighter under the FX-2 project. The three choices for FX-2 are the F-18, Rafale, and the Gripen.

‘Because two of those three have carrier variants available it makes sense for the navy to wait until the air force has chosen its FX-2 aircraft and then base its own decision on this,’ Perrot said.

The Clemenceau-class aircraft carrier Sao Paulo was originally in French Navy service as the Foch and entered Brazilian service in 2000. The 32,800t ship completed an upgrade programme in 2011 and although it is not expected to be replaced until well into the next decade, initial work will have to begin now.

Perrot believes that similar to its submarine and surface ship programmes, the Brazilian Navy will want to build its new ships domestically, with support from experienced international companies to develop an industrial base to carry out this work.

The decision to proceed with the RfP is awaiting governmental approval.

Note the FREMM-ER model behind the carrier model for later as well as the Mistral LHD model, but it's what we expected, a tweaked design of the current design DCNS had on offer for the French Navy. It's surprisingly 8,000t heavier than the design on DCNS' website & some 13m longer.

But wisely it mentions that it'd be best to wait - eventually - for the F-X2 competition because "two of those three have carrier variants available", although *technically* the Gripen does have a carrier variant but it's currently just a design I think.

But it does confirm that the Brazilian Navy wants to forge ahead with the CATOBAR method and as such I expect they'll go with this design DCNS has put forward.

To be honest, Brazil could get an incredibly good and more complete deal with DCNS which could give their navy anything they wanted, SSKs, SSNs, FREMM, FREMM-ER (FREDA), carriers, supply ships, amphibious assault ships. Kinda makes any package DCNS puts together to the Brazilian Navy better than what BAE could put forward, or at least the designs seem more complete and tailored to what Brazil wants in the majority of the cases.

EDIT: Just realised, IIRC all the recent talk was Fincantieri offering FREMM and there wasn't anything about DCNS giving it a go.

 

[Ananda]

Just guessing, since like you say, the picture is not the best detail. My thought it's 8 torp tubes with 8 reload. Thus potential 16 torps. Quite small load if this true compared to the tonange and dimensions. Thought Brazil will go with design based on baracuda, however seems comparing the model of Baracuda that I've seen, not the case.

Well Off course only based on amatuer observations

Another curiosity, if Grippen wins FX-2 (which like south american telenovela, continue produced another set of drama..no offense intended ), is still make sense for the Navy to go with navalised Grippen, considering Brazil probably only need 20-30 of navalised version of Grippen ?

Sorry if this being discussed before, I raise this because media indications that the Navy will wait of Air Force FX-2 development before deciding for A-4 replacement.

 

[RobWilliams]

Well, I just checked out the typical Scorpene loadout - 6 tubes for 18 torps, or Excocets or a load of mines, so the number 16 perhaps isn't too silly (8 tubes seems too big, the Astutes are chunky SSN's and they've still got 6 so I doubt the slimmer SN-Br would have more).

But it's interesting nonetheless, like I said, i'm more interested in the design with 6 VLS Seems to throw a curveball in terms of their doctrine.

The expected result will be that whatever is picked for FX-2 will ultimately end up being used by the Brazilian Navy, it's been said before that Brazilian input in the program is a BIG deal. Their ultimate aim is to develop their indiginous fast jet industry and to become a global exporter of fighter aircraft, which is why the maximum amount of input plus full transfer of technology from a Brazilian point of view is such a big deal.

It's important to remember that buying a limited number of naval Gripens will be the same situation as if they choose Rafale IIRC. The Rafale itself isn't carrier capable across the board, there are Air Force variants (B, C) and then there's a Navy variant (M), so that's not a problem. Not sure how it goes on the SH.

Gripen NG will come about, the navalised version of Gripen NG is CATOBAR capable. I'd bet Saab offers Brazil the same as the UK offered India in terms of Sea Typhoon - a lead seat in the development of the aircraft, i.e a load of indiginous content.

I've attached a picture courtest of G_Steuer from Twitter showing Saab's image of a Brazilian air group