Bombings, Mass shootings & Domestic Security Issues in the US

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Terran

Active Member
That argument doesn't really wash either. It's full of excuses. Why do civilians require military style automatic and semi automatic weapons?
Automatic weapons are not available to the general public. The few that are are specially licensed as dealers samples by class 3 dealers. As to Semi automatic. During the Assault weapons ban the features that differed between compliance and noncompliance were primarily a bayonet lug, a pistol grip, a telescopic stock, a
Muzzle break.
“Style“ is the operative word. There were not practical changes other than fixed magazine capacity akin to Canada. Yet practically then as now it had no real effect as the primary weapon of American gun crime is the pistol and revolver.
That argument doesn't really wash either. It's full of excuses. Why do civilians require military style automatic and semi automatic weapons? There is no absolute need for civilians to have access to those under any circumstances. Pistols, why do civilians require access to pistols, especially the ability to carry them concealed? I live in a country which until recent times was one of the most highly armed in the world. Australia was very similar. When we had a couple of mass shootings, our respective governments tightened the gun laws. They have generally worked as well. Maybe it's because your average Aussie and Kiwi are somewhat more thoughtful towards their neighbours and more civic minded, rather than being self centred and focused fully on the individual.

Like John I too think that this'll go back and forth and I am just a Kiwi who doesn't give a rats arse how many yanks shoot one another in mass shootings. Not my part of ship.
pistols are both used as the primary weapon in crime and against crime. It’s the weapon of choice in self defense and sport. It’s ability to conceal is a critical factor in that choice. Same rationale for mace or stun guns/tasers.
Farther although reduced gun crime still happens in Australia and the UK. Despite bans. Although some have argued that it reduced murder rates those reductions were matched by reduction in the US and Europe as a global trend. Generally bans don’t effect professional criminals. They don’t care about the law at all. They only effectively work on cases where in the gun has been stolen or where a situation has arisen where in the owner or someone with access has become a danger. Yet in these cases other violent actions are often taken.

The second amendment first section talks about militias. This is as in the 1700s until the First World War American forces had a weak national army that was blustered by volunteers from towns and counties. Until even during the Civil war most brought their own weapons from home. The difference between a hunting weapon and a military weapon of that era and today primarily being a bayonet lug.
The view point of the American founding fathers was that in time of national or civil strife one has the right to defend themselves. So much so that it was included in the bill of rights and the second right after the right to a free speech. This group of the first ten amendments is called the Bill of rights as they are not organizational like the bulk of amendments but are akin to the American Magna Carta Libertatum. A set of rights recognized as foundational and critical to the function of the people and governments. Infringement of these rights being highly controversial as as a means of stripping freedoms. Amendments to these would basically be telling the people that all their rights are amendable from speech to search and seizure.
 

cdxbow

Active Member
I've been setting up a website for the National Grenade Association (NGA), my American friends want to set one up, so I'm giving them a hand doing the 'techie' bits. As part of their second amendment rights they believe profoundly they should be able to carry grenades. They also want grenade training for their children. They feel it's a profound infringement of their civil liberties not being allowed to carry grenades.

Remember folks, grenades don't kill, people do!
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Gun Control - Part 1


Gun Control - Part 2


Freedom


Moderators warning. This content is extremely borderline acceptable because of the language used.

Viewer discretion is advised. Videos contain language that maybe regarded by some as unacceptable. View at your own risk.
 
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SolarWind

Active Member
I've been setting up a website for the National Grenade Association (NGA), my American friends want to set one up, so I'm giving them a hand doing the 'techie' bits. As part of their second amendment rights they believe profoundly they should be able to carry grenades. They also want grenade training for their children. They feel it's a profound infringement of their civil liberties not being allowed to carry grenades.

Remember folks, grenades don't kill, people do!
This sounds more along the lines of the church of the spaghetti monster, trying to disprove an idea by driving it to absurdity, or, in formal terms, to contradiction. They certainly have a Constitutional right for political, press, and lobby activity, but, in all seriousness, grenades are explosives, not firearms.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
That argument doesn't really wash either. It's full of excuses. Why do civilians require military style automatic and semi automatic weapons? There is no absolute need for civilians to have access to those under any circumstances.
The whole point of the "pro-gun" side if you will is that they don't think access to guns should be regulated based on "need". If I as an individual am able to own and operate a belt-fed M2 .50 cal safely, I should not be prevented from doing this because my neighbor is scared or because the government decided I don't need one. The fundamental argument underlying gun rights is almost libertarian in nature - the government has no business regulating gun rights based on needs, only based on compelling state interest and in the least intrusive way possible. And at the far end of the spectrum is a place like the UK where carrying a box cutter in public can get you arrested. It would then be on you to prove you had a good reason for carrying it around. I can sympathize with this argument in principle. I certainly don't like the extreme levels of over-regulation that many modern societies engage in (everything from drastic limitations on the height of a fence around your property, to what days you can use your fireplace on). In principle I think that the strict scrutiny legal standard (the one used for freedom of speech limitations) should be applied to more government regulations. However there are aspects of US gun laws that are just problematic. I think that California gun regulation has gone too far. However Texas has not gone anywhere near far enough.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Gun Control - Part 1


Gun Control - Part 2


Freedom


Moderators warning. This content is extremely borderline acceptable because of the language used.

Viewer discretion is advised. Videos contain language that maybe regarded by some as unacceptable. View at your own risk.
WRT the Mod comment, sometimes strong language is only applicable, especially when discussing the slaughter of primary school children. The last video (Freedom) is particularly appropriate, it clearly illustrates the questionable priorities of uptight religious idiot pollies that have significant influence in the US.
 

Terran

Active Member
@Fendor,
Although entertaining I am not sure your characterization is quite right. First as is Gun laws in the US do allow curio ownership of Automatic weapons built before a set date. After that date no go.

However the price of said ownership and operation is such that its impractical at best. Maintenance and upkeep, cost of ammunition and in the case of a Browning M2.
As to “need” states and the federal government have set rules in an arbitrary manor.
California forbid .50 BMG rifles. Why? They claimed it would be used by gang bangers to shoot down police helicopters. The gun cost over $10,000 retail the ammunition almost a $100 dollars and at over 30 pounds and 2 meters long the only way one would be able to move it around down town LA would be in the back of a full sized Chevy Suburban. The ability to even hit a helicopter requires training and knowledge of how to operate the system at an extremely high degree. The chances of actually bring down a helicopter are quite low. Yet that was the rationale used by California.

As a citizen of Massachusetts I cannot buy an AR of any type. Yet in most other states I could. I could buy a rifle to a barrel length of 16 inches below that I would need a special Tax stamp. Yet I could get around that by buying an AR pistol which can have a Barrel length almost to a nub. The only requirements being that it not have a “Stock” yet a pistol brace is allowed and can even by the ATF shouldered. An AR pistol can have an angled grip added after market but not a Vertical that would break the law.

A Shot gun with less then a set length barrel is deemed a destructive device.

As we should be learning globally right now setting rules based on something like perceived “need” runs slamming at high velocity into political choices. In Other words Government officials love to gain power seldom release it or admit that their actions have done little or just made things worse.

The recent Canadian ban list included Stinger missiles and AR15.com. One impossible to get a live version of the other a website.

Firearms ownership breaks down into three main categories, Collectors, Self defense and sport. Overlaps between two of the three happen but not as often as one would think. The cases of Curios being used for more than displays are fairly rare. Often in public displays they are butchered anyway. I mean I have been to the American Heritage museum where they have a Abrams Tank as well as many other vintage armored vehicles. Being museum pieces the breaches of the tanks guns are welded shut. Welded shut to comply with ATF. Think about that. Do you really think such a case could even remotely happen? That someone with his besties could smuggle the fuel and source the tank ammunition to go on a rampage?

The NY Post and NY Daily News called the weapon used in Denver a “Weapon of War” yet its wearing a pistol brace, its trigger mechanism and lower receiver were designed and built only to fire semi automatic and never accept automatic parts. It’s sub components probably have not a single point of commonalities to a rifle like the M4 yet. Weapon of war. I could buy a pistol identical in every way to an M9, M17 or M18 side arm used in the Army yet this is a “weapon of war”.
it’s fear mongering. We hear over and over about school shootings, yet reality if they are black swans. Kids in the US are more likely to get struck by lightning.

the number of people killed in US mass shootings last year was double the number who died in plane crashes in the US. It’s tragic but hardly a common event.
I am not saying such things don’t happen but the reality is much of this is targeted to an enabler, a tool rather than the actual individual responsible or cause of their rampage. The individual in the recent case whom would have committed such actions anyway he could. Being that he swore Jihad. There has been psychologically profiling done on rampage killers that show they have much the same mentality as suicide bombers. Armed with a gun, behind the wheel of a car, Killdozer or plane, with a knife or a bomb strapped to their chest. For Alah or just to say FU to the world once they cross that line it’s hard to stop them. The whole gun debate doesn’t factor as they will just pick another weapon.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
The Americans have to have all these Guns because they are about to be invaded by either
North Korea
China
Russia
Klingon Empire
Predators from the Alien Franchise
Transformers
Various MCU Aliens
Aliens from the Independence Day franchise
The Nazis secretly living on the Moon
or the Roman Empire through a Time portal.
Got to give them a chance to defend themselves you know.
:rolleyes:
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
There has been psychologically profiling done on rampage killers that show they have much the same mentality as suicide bombers. Armed with a gun, behind the wheel of a car, Killdozer or plane, with a knife or a bomb strapped to their chest. For Alah or just to say FU to the world once they cross that line it’s hard to stop them. The whole gun debate doesn’t factor as they will just pick another weapon.
This is the line that continually gets trotted out but do you have any data to support it? After the sweeping gun reforms that followed the Port Arthur Massacre in Australia we simply haven't had mass shooting events that even remotely compare to the regularity or scale of what we see in the US (and I suspect this would be true even if you control for population size). School shootings/massacres have been non-existent here. The above strikes me as a view that offers no effective solution to the fact that your children and young people are being massacred on a regular basis.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This sounds more along the lines of the church of the spaghetti monster, trying to disprove an idea by driving it to absurdity, or, in formal terms, to contradiction. They certainly have a Constitutional right for political, press, and lobby activity, but, in all seriousness, grenades are explosives, not firearms.
Well grenades would scare the shit out of me because I have a poor throwing arm. One of the reasons why I was never good at the cricket. Mind you did have great fun with thunderflashes.

There is nothing wrong with the Church of the Great Spaghetti Monster. When I was at uni, the branch there used to throw some pretty good parties.

@Feanor If I was allowed to own and operate a belt fed Browning 50 cal HB HMG, I certainly would love to have one. I would have it as a collectors item. However She Who Must Be Obeyed would kibosh the idea.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Well grenades would scare the shit out of me because I have a poor throwing arm. One of the reasons why I was never good at the cricket. Mind you did have great fun with thunderflashes.

There is nothing wrong with the Church of the Great Spaghetti Monster. When I was at uni, the branch there used to throw some pretty good parties.

@Feanor If I was allowed to own and operate a belt fed Browning 50 cal HB HMG, I certainly would love to have one. I would have it as a collectors item. However She Who Must Be Obeyed would kibosh the idea.
I would suggest the National Belt-Fed Machine Gun Association, but the "NBMGA" just doesn't have the same ring to it. In the meantime don't forget to dress as a pirate on Sundays ;-p
 

Terran

Active Member
This is the line that continually gets trotted out but do you have any data to support it? After the sweeping gun reforms that followed the Port Arthur Massacre in Australia we simply haven't had mass shooting events that even remotely compare to the regularity or scale of what we see in the US (and I suspect this would be true even if you control for population size). School shootings/massacres have been non-existent here. The above strikes me as a view that offers no effective solution to the fact that your children and young people are being massacred on a regular basis.
Sydney 2019.
2014
2015 Parramatta shooting
Melbourne 07.
Brighton 2017
Oakhampton hights 01
Hectorville siege 2011
Wedderburn shooting 2014
Write st. 1999
Darwin 2019
Melbourne nightclub 2019.
of course that’s limiting yourself to shooting. If you consider other forms of rampage you get the Melbourne attacks 2017, 2018, the 2014 Endurance hill, Minto 2016, Mill park, Brisbane 2020. North Ryde and more.
farther I am not going deep here just a cursory skim of the Wiki article.
farther remember the population bias. Australia has something like 1/15th the US population.
So please continue talking about the utopia that is down under.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Sydney 2019.
2014
2015 Parramatta shooting
Melbourne 07.
Brighton 2017
Oakhampton hights 01
Hectorville siege 2011
Wedderburn shooting 2014
Write st. 1999
Darwin 2019
Melbourne nightclub 2019.
of course that’s limiting yourself to shooting. If you consider other forms of rampage you get the Melbourne attacks 2017, 2018, the 2014 Endurance hill, Minto 2016, Mill park, Brisbane 2020. North Ryde and more.
farther I am not going deep here just a cursory skim of the Wiki article.
farther remember the population bias. Australia has something like 1/15th the US population.
So please continue talking about the utopia that is down under.
I think you missed my point. I am not denying that we have shootings, or that some of them involve more than one casualty. I said they do not appear to be nearly as frequent or involve nearly as many casualties (ditto for the small number of non-gun related massacres). Have we had 1/15th the number of mass shootings as the US since Port Arthur? 1/15th the casualties from them? How do the sizes of those shootings compare? What about school shootings? AFAIK we haven't had a single one...

You indicated that perpetrators of mass killings who can't access a semi-automatic weapon would find another (equally effective?) method. Do you have any data to support that claim?
 

cdxbow

Active Member
@Fendor,
Although entertaining I am not sure your characterization is quite right. First as is Gun laws in the US do allow curio ownership of Automatic weapons built before a set date. After that date no go.

However the price of said ownership and operation is such that its impractical at best. Maintenance and upkeep, cost of ammunition and in the case of a Browning M2.
As to “need” states and the federal government have set rules in an arbitrary manor.
California forbid .50 BMG rifles. Why? They claimed it would be used by gang bangers to shoot down police helicopters. The gun cost over $10,000 retail the ammunition almost a $100 dollars and at over 30 pounds and 2 meters long the only way one would be able to move it around down town LA would be in the back of a full sized Chevy Suburban. The ability to even hit a helicopter requires training and knowledge of how to operate the system at an extremely high degree. The chances of actually bring down a helicopter are quite low. Yet that was the rationale used by California.

As a citizen of Massachusetts I cannot buy an AR of any type. Yet in most other states I could. I could buy a rifle to a barrel length of 16 inches below that I would need a special Tax stamp. Yet I could get around that by buying an AR pistol which can have a Barrel length almost to a nub. The only requirements being that it not have a “Stock” yet a pistol brace is allowed and can even by the ATF shouldered. An AR pistol can have an angled grip added after market but not a Vertical that would break the law.

A Shot gun with less then a set length barrel is deemed a destructive device.

As we should be learning globally right now setting rules based on something like perceived “need” runs slamming at high velocity into political choices. In Other words Government officials love to gain power seldom release it or admit that their actions have done little or just made things worse.

The recent Canadian ban list included Stinger missiles and AR15.com. One impossible to get a live version of the other a website.

Firearms ownership breaks down into three main categories, Collectors, Self defense and sport. Overlaps between two of the three happen but not as often as one would think. The cases of Curios being used for more than displays are fairly rare. Often in public displays they are butchered anyway. I mean I have been to the American Heritage museum where they have a Abrams Tank as well as many other vintage armored vehicles. Being museum pieces the breaches of the tanks guns are welded shut. Welded shut to comply with ATF. Think about that. Do you really think such a case could even remotely happen? That someone with his besties could smuggle the fuel and source the tank ammunition to go on a rampage?

The NY Post and NY Daily News called the weapon used in Denver a “Weapon of War” yet its wearing a pistol brace, its trigger mechanism and lower receiver were designed and built only to fire semi automatic and never accept automatic parts. It’s sub components probably have not a single point of commonalities to a rifle like the M4 yet. Weapon of war. I could buy a pistol identical in every way to an M9, M17 or M18 side arm used in the Army yet this is a “weapon of war”.
it’s fear mongering. We hear over and over about school shootings, yet reality if they are black swans. Kids in the US are more likely to get struck by lightning.

the number of people killed in US mass shootings last year was double the number who died in plane crashes in the US. It’s tragic but hardly a common event.
I am not saying such things don’t happen but the reality is much of this is targeted to an enabler, a tool rather than the actual individual responsible or cause of their rampage. The individual in the recent case whom would have committed such actions anyway he could. Being that he swore Jihad. There has been psychologically profiling done on rampage killers that show they have much the same mentality as suicide bombers. Armed with a gun, behind the wheel of a car, Killdozer or plane, with a knife or a bomb strapped to their chest. For Alah or just to say FU to the world once they cross that line it’s hard to stop them. The whole gun debate doesn’t factor as they will just pick another weapon.
Except facts show otherwise.
More guns, more deaths. (homicide, suicide and accidents)

gun3.jpg

I have 5x the chance of being murdered if I was American rather than from Oz (I get to live 5 years longer, too) largely due to guns.

I agree that mass shootings are the outliers, it's the day to day tally of deaths that adds up and make up the far larger problem.

BTW there are are 51 fatal lightening strikes per year in the US and there are thousands of under 18 yo killed in the US by guns per year. Sure if you want to compare it to school shootings in may or may not be greater, but you acknowledged that these were black swan events, so a more valid comparison is to the under 18 death toll.

Gun deaths are the second largest cause of death in children in the USA, there is no where else in the developed world where this is so.
Does this fact not tell you that something is terribly wrong with your gun policies?
Don't you want to do something to save these children?
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sydney 2019.
2014
2015 Parramatta shooting
Melbourne 07.
Brighton 2017
Oakhampton hights 01
Hectorville siege 2011
Wedderburn shooting 2014
Write st. 1999
Darwin 2019
Melbourne nightclub 2019.
of course that’s limiting yourself to shooting. If you consider other forms of rampage you get the Melbourne attacks 2017, 2018, the 2014 Endurance hill, Minto 2016, Mill park, Brisbane 2020. North Ryde and more.
farther I am not going deep here just a cursory skim of the Wiki article.
farther remember the population bias. Australia has something like 1/15th the US population.
So please continue talking about the utopia that is down under.
2020 deaths by gun violence
USA 41,000
Australia 220

The population of the USA is ~12 times larger than that of Australia. On a per capita basis, all else being equal, USA should have ~2600 gun deaths.

But the situations aren't equal. No amount of half arsed justifications can hide the core issue. Apply Occam's Razor. Or a metaphoric one and cut gun ownership. Or be seen as a society of self absorbed children playing at Wyatt Earp without the ability of the victims to get up again.

oldsig
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
2020 deaths by gun violence
USA 41,000
Australia 220

The population of the USA is ~12 times larger than that of Australia. On a per capita basis, all else being equal, USA should have ~2600 gun deaths.

But the situations aren't equal. No amount of half arsed justifications can hide the core issue. Apply Occam's Razor. Or a metaphoric one and cut gun ownership. Or be seen as a society of self absorbed children playing at Wyatt Earp without the ability of the victims to get up again.

oldsig
Lets get closer to the US, gun deaths in Canada in 2019 =263.
First issue with fixing an addiction is to get the patient to admit it has a problem. No body except the Military needs enough Assault Rifles and Ammo to outfit a Infantry Squad and yet there are Civilians in the US who do.
 
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