Wiesel is not a recon vehicle in any way - neither by designation, nor by role. It is a weapons carrier, a mobility device for the weapon it carries. And a fairly bad one at that due to its compact size, you don't really want to use it for any sort of overland transfer. Much the same applies to Scorpion.
Ive read (sonewhere ??) that the noise signature of the Hawkei makes it not great for recon... any truth to this?
Such things have been considered. The aural signature is not great, but it’s greater issue is lack of sensor, and self-protection capability.
Some efforts have been put into those areas, with R400 RWS systems and JCREW EW systems addressing many of those issues, but others such as laser warning, it’s loudness etc still remain as issues.
The vehicle is much smaller than a Boxer and will be able to go places the Boxer can’t. So it will probably have some utility in the role, but it wasn’t designed or intended to be a dedicated recon vehicle, or even a Cav vehicle. It’s a protected Land Rover replacement, period.
Is that how it's actually being employed though? Seems to be some exceptions... 10LH comes to mind.
Takao
The Bunker Group
Don't confuse the intended role with the budgetary role
The role of Hawkei is a protected Land Rover replacement. That's why it was purchased. Which makes sense, if you think of a random unit there are protected trucks to replace the Macks and Unimogs, a protected troop carrier to replace the Unimog, and a bunch of A veh to replace the APC/tank/towed gun. The bit that is missing is the C2 node / GP light vehicle. I, for instance, had four people in my Sqn HQ. In Australia training that is 2x G-wagon, but overseas there is nothing that gives me commensurate protection as the rest of my Bde. Likewise for most Sqn/Coy and Regt/Bn HQ or key C2 nodes like ops.
10LH was raised to be a fourth ACR for a fourth Combat Bde. It was intended to have a suite of A-veh under the FSP20 growth path for Army. DSR23 torpedoed that plan - so now 10LH is making do
The problem here is that, unfortunately, people have confused the budgetary role. Hawkei has no sensors, limited direct fire protection, no decent fires capability, baseline communications suite - it's a Land Rover that can drive over mines. Compare to an actual recce vehicle like a Boxer or ASLAV - thermal sights, broad comms suite, self-protection, firepower - and you can see that Hawkei isn't actually being used in a recce role despite what the claim is. And that's simply because driving a Mack with a pair of binos does not make a recce platform.....
So, in answer to your question, yes. It's how it is being employed. 10LH is using it as a Land Rover replacement. The platform is not providing any recce capability (in turn bringing in to question how much cavalry capability 10LH is providing...), no matter what it gets labelled.
*story time* many moons ago, doing my first exercise with ASLAVs, we got a real wake up demonstration of their capability. Everything to date had been pretty much light infantry assessments/training; making the leap to A veh was a struggle for some. One night, an ASLAV sat at *many hundreds of meters* range and walked the scouts (actually fellow trainees) into another Pl's position using thermals to know how to dodge sentries and the like. The overwatching ASLAV got the scouts into Pl HQ, tagged the Pl Comd and Pl SGT, then got out - all without being detected. The staff were watching, just laughing. The defending Pl had done nothing wrong, and the ASLAV didn't fire a shot, but what a demo of 2 Cav at its peak in the Divisional recce role. There is no way that a Hawkei can do that.
Some Cav is better than no Cav I guess…
But that doesn’t change the fact that Hawkei was never designed to be a light Cav vehicle.
OldTex
Well-Known Member
It seems that the PMV-L is being shoehorned into the light cav/recce role in much the same way as the LRPVs were previously. There seems to be a somewhat ingrained belief that a GP vehicle can be made to provide the light cav/recce role and save money (usually tarted up with claims of "commonality" of spares and logistic footprint). This is the reality for small and medium sized defence forces everywhere (extreme versions are using civilian utility vehicles as troop carriers). The solution might be that the chassis of the PMV-L is used to carry a specifically designed and built light cav/recce body. But that may not meet the budgetary role.
That would give you a loud, slow, un-protected vehicle with poor fuel efficiency and awful off-road handling (from reports) that still doesn’t do recce…
The budget is the issue. If it’s not, just buy more Boxer CRV and give 10LH (not to mention 1 Brigade for that matter!) a proper Cavalry Regiment.
OldTex
Well-Known Member
Would a 35 tonne vehicle like the CRVs be of use to a brigade which is being structured for littoral manouevre?
How is the Hawkei un-protected? If it is then surely the PMV-M (Bushmaster) would also have to be considered un-protected.
You proposed the chassis of the PMV-L be mated to a purpose designed recce/cav body.
The passenger capsule of the Hawkei is the only part of the vehicle that is protected. The rest of it is not, as an attempted (failed) attempt to make it lightweight enough to be moved via Chinook.
The changes you envisaged makes it an unprotected vehicle, that still can’t do recce. Might as well just use a Supacat at that point…
Have we forgotten about these?
There are over 2000 G Wagons in service, including 200 of the pictured variant.
There are over 2000 G Wagons in service, including 200 of the pictured variant.
Nope. The RSV variant of the g wagon make an excellent peacetime vehicle that will never be deployed beyond our shores to anything more intense than a regional presence mission.
A RAV4 has a bit of oomph?
Er, maybe. The much touted “electric Bushmaster” (unsurprisingly) was an utter and dismal failure. It is being reworked into a hybrid diesel-electric version though for Army to trial.
1st Armoured Regiment to trial revised electric Bushmaster - Australian Defence Magazine
None of the recently ordered ones were in this configuration, IIRC, so I wouldn’t hold my breath on the idea as far as Bushmaster goes. To my knowledge, there is a technology upgrade program for Hawkei but nothing so substantial planned as the introduction of a hybrid powerplant though…
Different beasts. You are talking infantry platoons as opposed to Cavalry Regiments. The former primarily dismounted, the latter primarily mounted...
1RAR‘s recon sniper platoon, for example are issued Hawkei. But as a utility vehicle. Not for recon operations per se.
Why? The land rovers went everywhere the SAS went.
OldTex
Well-Known Member
The discussion of what vehicles should/could be used to provide the light cav/recce role is flawed because it is concentrating on the platform (yes I am guilty of that as well). The more basic question is what is the lightcav/recce role in the existing brigades. Under Plan Beersheba there were 3 like brigades (ignoring the Reserve brigades, which was a fault to start with). The Boxer CRV was suitable for the cav/recce role in those like brigades. That plan was discarded for 3 separate "focused" brigades. The CRV would suit the heavy/mechanised brigade (3 Bde) and would be (IMO) overkill, but adequate, for the motorised brigade (7Bde). It would be totally inappropriate for the littoral brigade (1Bde) as well as the Reserves. The move to focused brigades meant that there was a risk that the platforms (and perhaps the TTPs) for the role would be restricted to a single brigade (which has significant training, resource and retention issues associated).
The question is how to provide lightcav/recce for the light scale brigade (and the Reserves) while the CRV provides the cav/recce for the mechanised & motorised brigades?
The question is how to provide lightcav/recce for the light scale brigade (and the Reserves) while the CRV provides the cav/recce for the mechanised & motorised brigades?
OldTex
Well-Known Member
And suffered as a result (the LRPV in the Australian War Memorial is a telling example). Hence the push for a better vehicle (whether that is the SOV-SR aka Nary will be a subject for debate).