Australian Army Discussions and Updates

MickB

Well-Known Member
I agree.
However.
I'm currently in Bali. Do you think they will all be driving electric scooters and cars before 2050? Bali is a small part of Indonesia, Jakarta has the population of Australia in a city the size of Melbourne.
Australia going green is only going to hurt Australians with no real benefit to fighting climate change, that is going to continue to chance no matter how hard Greta Thunberg yells. Do you think the rest of the world looks to Australia and thinks "well the Aussies are doing, we should to?"
I think Australia needs to be very realistic about how we go about our electric future. Very very careful.
Recently watched a youtube that claimed to test the 3 top selling twincab 4 x 4s in usa while towing a caravan.
None exceded 200 miles before needing a recharge which would take at least an hour.
How would work in the Australian context.

No way that would work for military vehicles at least in the near future.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Recently watched a youtube that claimed to test the 3 top selling twincab 4 x 4s in usa while towing a caravan.
None exceded 200 miles before needing a recharge which would take at least an hour.
How would work in the Australian context.

No way that would work for military vehicles at least in the near future.
Not much use to me in Darwin. Spend at least an hour on the road towing camper/quad, then another hour full off road. That's for a day trip. If I was to prospecting properly for a week, it's totally out of the question, Darwin to Tennent Creek is 1000km one way, then there is the off road...
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Not much use to me in Darwin. Spend at least an hour on the road towing camper/quad, then another hour full off road. That's for a day trip. If I was to prospecting properly for a week, it's totally out of the question, Darwin to Tennent Creek is 1000km one way, then there is the off road...
The Internal Combustion Engine is not going to go extinct in our lifetime, EVs will only really be for City and high population density areas for a while yet.
 

Cooch

Active Member
Hmmmm.
Go away for 14 years, return to the forums and it all feels very familiar.

On the subject of our continental defence, it is to our advantage to make sure that it is not “game over” as soon as an enemy gets a foothold. Partly because we have a very long coastline, so guarding every kilometre of it takes a lot of resources and makes it difficult to concentrate forces to adequately respond.
Primarily, tho, any potential invader doing his calculations, understands that getting boots on the ground is only a part of his problem. He then has to support them.... and an aggressive response from our Defence Forces not only makes that more difficult, but increases the amount of “bullets, beans and bandages” that he has to deliver under fire.

The more expensive we make the whole exercise, the less likely he is to give it a try.
The harder we make him fight across hostile terrain, the longer we have to organise ongoing responses and the more likely he is to start making peace talks and settle for less than 100% of the country. (If we could palm everything east of the Blue Mountains off on him, then that would be a bonus.)

cheers all....Peter
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
On the serious side though all of the contenders for US Army OMFV program appeared to have adopted a hybrid electric drive as the power pack for their vehicles. This is definitely looking to the future and what would be interesting is would it be retrofittable? In the case of the ADF could existing vehicles such as the Army's Abrams, Boxers, MAN trucks etc., have their current power packs easily replaced by hybrid electric power packs? That would save a considerable amount of money because whole platforms aren't being replaced. Whether it's technically feasible is another story, but maybe something that should be investigated.

 

Cooch

Active Member
Talking from a farmer’s POV.

I’m aware of at least four different proxy studies showing that climate variability and droughts in the past that dwarf anything we have seen since written records became a thing in Australia. That prompts me to conclude that droughts are a natural phenomenon, and attempting to control the world’s weather is a far more doubtful proposition than preparing for future droughts.

No.... three years of La Niña does not “guarantee“ four to seven years of El Niño. It is more correct to say that recovery from La Niña often results in an over-correction in the next 2-3 years.

On the positive side, I’ve grown pretty decent crops during El Niño years. Otger parts ofvthe country have been hit worse, but the country rarely even gets close to starvation, and much of what does get imported are either luxury-foods, or feed for livestock. If there was a long-term decrease in rainfall, then farmers would adjust. After all, we grow crops in areas with 1/2 of my 650mm , and run livestock in areas with 1/3 of it. Adjusting your practices, inputs and expectations is a lot easier over a decade, than it is from one year to the next.

How bad could water get?
For what it is worth, there are aboriginal oral histories of droughts so severe that there was only one water source on the Upper Hawkesbury, and the Murrumbidgee drying up to the point that tribespeople were forced to walk overland to the Murray. A lot died. One of the studies mentioned above seems to have detected periods of vastly reduced flow from the Qld coastal rivers lasting up to 30 years. Our coastal cities might be in strife without cheap power to run the desalination plants.

But we have options, and we won’t all die of thirst.
 

Cooch

Active Member
On the serious side though all of the contenders for US Army OMFV program appeared to have adopted a hybrid electric drive......
One hopes that operational requirements take precedent over politics and the “new, shiny” factors.

As for retrofitting, I’m pretty ignorant regarding power-packs for armoured vehicles, but I’m assuming that they are limited by both weight and internal space. Pulling out an engine and transmission, then attempting to fit an equally powerful engine and transmission PLUS electric engine, PLUS battery is likely to present challenges.

Let’s just say that I’m not looking to trade in the John Deere or the old Cruiser just yet....
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
One hopes that operational requirements take precedent over politics and the “new, shiny” factors.

As for retrofitting, I’m pretty ignorant regarding power-packs for armoured vehicles, but I’m assuming that they are limited by both weight and internal space. Pulling out an engine and transmission, then attempting to fit an equally powerful engine and transmission PLUS electric engine, PLUS battery is likely to present challenges.

Let’s just say that I’m not looking to trade in the John Deere or the old Cruiser just yet....
Possibly a engine generating only electric power for batteries and an electric motor could eliminate the need for a transmission. This might allow retrofitting to existing vehicles.
 

Cooch

Active Member
I struggle to understand these conversations. Considering the Australian Defence Force now apparently defends Pfizer and other corporations, why are we talking about Australian Defense?
Tony...
You are talking to a bloke who turned his back on a Service he’d been involved in for over 40 years, because the management was treating the men like serfs. I was not prepared to ask others to do something that I would not do myself. I still do the same thing, but on my own time, with my own gear and on my own responsibility.

I do that because I am able to seperate the politics of management and the media-whores, from the job that needs to be done. Don’t blame the Diggers. I’ve worked with them in emergencies, they want to help, and being misused angers them as much as it does you.

I continue to argue for a better - more effective and less politicised - military because I have some understanding of how bad it would be to be in Eastern Ukraine right now, or any place at any time under similar conditions. It could be worse in Australia, and we could have less hope of turning it around.
 

Cooch

Active Member
Possibly a engine generating only electric power for batteries and an electric motor could eliminate the need for a transmission. This might allow retrofitting to existing vehicles.
Pardon me if I’m sceptical of Heath-Robinson adaptations.


As the article starting this discussion was more about light recon vehicles, I’ll offer a personal comparison that demonstrates the state of current tech. Footage from Afghan often showed overwatch being done by a sniper pair, using quad-bikes for light footprint and high mobility. Overwatch positions being typically the high ground, which is generally inaccessible to heavier vehicles. I recently did a comparison between standard Quads and an electric alternative. The electric version was - in round figures - twice the price, twice the weight, had less range and took half a day to “refuel” instead of two minutes.
A hybrid will maybe solve some of these deficiencies, but batteries are currently close to their technological limits.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Pardon me if I’m sceptical of Heath-Robinson adaptations.


As the article starting this discussion was more about light recon vehicles, I’ll offer a personal comparison that demonstrates the state of current tech. Footage from Afghan often showed overwatch being done by a sniper pair, using quad-bikes for light footprint and high mobility. Overwatch positions being typically the high ground, which is generally inaccessible to heavier vehicles. I recently did a comparison between standard Quads and an electric alternative. The electric version was - in round figures - twice the price, twice the weight, had less range and took half a day to “refuel” instead of two minutes.
A hybrid will maybe solve some of these deficiencies, but batteries are currently close to their technological limits.
All electric for military vehicles is a bridge too far with current technology but hybrid alternatives are the future.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Don’t blame the Diggers. I’ve worked with them in emergencies, they want to help, and being misused angers them as much as it does you.
I’m not sure if it’s known or not, but Defence does not plan or decide priorities in Defence Aid to the Civil Community (DFACC) Operations, that is done by the Civil emergency management organisation of the State concerned. Defence is just a resource for their use.; normally, one of many. Mostly that organisation will take the advice of the Defence people assigned as their liaisons as to the best use of Defence capabilities, but sometimes for good or not so good reasons they don’t.

As somebody who has been involved in half a dozen such operations, latterly in command positions, over a more than 50 year career as an officer in a service other than Army, it can be incredibly frustrating to see your people being used in inappropriate or ineffective ways. But the State organisation is the boss, so you give your advice, as forcefully as you like, and if it is ignored you get on with what you have been tasked to do; and do it as well as you can.

Nobody ever treats my troops as serfs. No good Officer will ever stand for that. You might have to ask them to do really unpleasant or extremely boring things, but Australian sailors are valuable people, and you treat them that way. If you are stupid enough to not do so, you WILL suffer the consequence (and anybody with any real experience has seen such); all you do is done through them.
 

Cooch

Active Member
Spoz.
In my former role, I saw similar things. A political decision is made, we get told that we have ADF personnel available.
They are fit and keen... and neither trained nor equipped for the work we were engaged in as an emergency service.

Unfortunately, senior management appears to be relatively isolated from the consequences of their decisions. Recruitment and retention is a serious problem in some areas, but the Office blames changing culture and demographics, even while making the Service less attractive to their natural recruiting pool.
Then the cry goes up that there aren’t enough people, so they need more funds for newer and shinier equipment.

I’m getting cynical ...
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
All electric for military vehicles is a bridge too far with current technology but hybrid alternatives are the future.
Why not explore this domain?
It may validate what we expect or maybe hopefully open up some opportunity for our vehicles and how we operate them.
We will not know unless we try.
So yes ,chuck a battery in a bushmaster and see what it looks like.
Play around with ideas and concepts and be open to a fresh approach.

Hybrid looks promising.

Maybe your vehicle travels 99% on traditional fuel and then 1% on electric in proximity to the front-line.

Lets see


Cheers S
 
So yes ,chuck a battery in a bushmaster and see what it looks like.
Play around with ideas and concepts and be open to a fresh approach.

Hybrid looks promising.


Cheers S
The hybrid Bushmaster is already a thing...


There has been significant investigation into engergy management by deployed forces and DIH is on board funding development...


It's a matter of when, not if.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Pardon me if I’m sceptical of Heath-Robinson adaptations.


As the article starting this discussion was more about light recon vehicles, I’ll offer a personal comparison that demonstrates the state of current tech. Footage from Afghan often showed overwatch being done by a sniper pair, using quad-bikes for light footprint and high mobility. Overwatch positions being typically the high ground, which is generally inaccessible to heavier vehicles. I recently did a comparison between standard Quads and an electric alternative. The electric version was - in round figures - twice the price, twice the weight, had less range and took half a day to “refuel” instead of two minutes.
A hybrid will maybe solve some of these deficiencies, but batteries are currently close to their technological limits.
The flip side is modern military vehicles have a lot of systems that require a lot of energy storage. If that energy is mostly diesel you have various signature and efficiency issues that a bigger battery will avert.

Military vehicles in may ways are ideal for hybrid electric. The near instant, massive, torque of an electric motor, the long periods of low signature offered by a large battery, fits quite well with a lot of defence usage.
 

Cooch

Active Member
Volkodav..

You may well be right, but adaptation usually requires compromise.
Everything is a trade-off, and we can’t decide what really works until we see the product run through its paces.

It’ll be interesting to see what the bigger players come up with.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Volkodav..

You may well be right, but adaptation usually requires compromise.
Everything is a trade-off, and we can’t decide what really works until we see the product run through its paces.

It’ll be interesting to see what the bigger players come up with.
True, a big compromise in the 90s was having to start our vehicles up to charge the batteries.

Interestingly Oshkosh for instance has been offering diesel electric options for years where their trucks (if so spec'd) to operate as stationary generators as required.
 
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