Australian Army Discussions and Updates

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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Stampede said:
Article with the ABC today re replacing our APC's.

www.abc.net.au

This troop carrier was obsolete 30 years ago. Army is fighting to keep its $20 billion replacement project

When the army's M113 personnel carriers were deployed to the streets of Somalia in the 90s they were already obsolete. Soldiers fear a $20 billion project to replace them could be on the federal government's chopping block.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au

Keeping the conversation going in the public arena.


Cheers S
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We used M-113s at Long Tan. Long Tan is now closer in time to the Light Horse charge at Beersheba then the current period.
 
A

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Stampede said:
Article with the ABC today re replacing our APC's.

www.abc.net.au

This troop carrier was obsolete 30 years ago. Army is fighting to keep its $20 billion replacement project

When the army's M113 personnel carriers were deployed to the streets of Somalia in the 90s they were already obsolete. Soldiers fear a $20 billion project to replace them could be on the federal government's chopping block.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au

Keeping the conversation going in the public arena.


Cheers S
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30 years ago? There is a pretty sound argument it was obsolete as a front-line vehicle 45-50 years ago. Unfortunately we have missed at least an entire generation‘s worth of AFV recapitalisation, due to our dithering, lack of urgency and plain old lack of funding / prioritising our air and naval forces at the expense of our Army, despite which is nonetheless called upon to do the overwhelming bulk of operational work…
 
M

Massive

Well-Known Member
Bob53 said:
I suspect every commander will be wanting HIMARs with ATCAMs at their disposal on future … or current battlefields.
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Definitely agree with you there Bob.

That said, what are the implications for the way Army (and the ADF) is structured. At the moment it just looks like another type of artillery being added to an existing force without a lot of new thinking (know I am being unfair here as imagine a lot of smart people are indeed at least thinking about it).

I feel that the true implications should be for a significant investment in HIMARS (say Brigade strength) and an increased emphasis on reconnaissance & sensing in the rest of Army/ADF - making up example though this better left to the experts - more Cavalry units, additional patrol units similar to Regional Surveillance units, fixed & drone sensors etc etc.

Thoughts?

Massive
 
M

Massive

Well-Known Member
Stampede said:
Army need a medium helicopter.
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Yes, but does Army need as many as they have now? Will they still be used for Air Assault/front line combat roles? Would a smaller number of larger Chinooks be able to replace some of them if not?

Also - is an attack helicopter still worth the investment? Would a greater investment in HIMARS, loitering munitions & NLOS be a more effective approach?

I feel everything needs to be up in the air - and particularly rotary assets given their sustainment cost and questions around survivability in a contested environment.

Thoughts,

Massive
 
R

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Massive said:
Definitely agree with you there Bob.

That said, what are the implications for the way Army (and the ADF) is structured. At the moment it just looks like another type of artillery being added to an existing force without a lot of new thinking (know I am being unfair here as imagine a lot of smart people are indeed at least thinking about it).

I feel that the true implications should be for a significant investment in HIMARS (say Brigade strength) and an increased emphasis on reconnaissance & sensing in the rest of Army/ADF - making up example though this better left to the experts - more Cavalry units, additional patrol units similar to Regional Surveillance units, fixed & drone sensors etc etc.

Thoughts?

Massive
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You will need a subscription to view DTR but worth it.

Sept 22 DTR has a news article on the Long-Range Fires program, including
A new Brigade to be raised with the HQ co-located with the RAAF ISR precinct within the Edinburgh Military Precinct in Adelaide.
The new Brigade will include
16th Air Defence Regt with the NASAMS, to be re-located to Edinburgh
14th Regt RAA, LR Fires with HIMARS,
The Anti-Ship Missile project will also come under the new Bde.
9th Reft RAA is also earmarked to form a component.

Also, an article on Varley's bid for the LARC-V replacement.
 
S

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Massive said:
Yes, but does Army need as many as they have now? Will they still be used for Air Assault/front line combat roles? Would a smaller number of larger Chinooks be able to replace some of them if not?

Also - is an attack helicopter still worth the investment? Would a greater investment in HIMARS, loitering munitions & NLOS be a more effective approach?

I feel everything needs to be up in the air - and particularly rotary assets given their sustainment cost and questions around survivability in a contested environment.

Thoughts,

Massive
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I think these are good questions.
I feel manned rotary anything will be problematic on the front line with a near peer adversary.
That said they will still have a place.
Longer range stand off missiles will be very much utilised in conjunction with UAV assets.
Fighting at distance from the air will be their key to survival.
Helicopters have that important trick of been able to take off and land vertically and perform a wide range of roles from attack / reconnaissance / transport and logistics at speed and over distance. "It's their thing "
Compared to land vehicles they still perform a desirable niche from HADR going up through the threat spectrum to high end war-fighting.
There way of business will just look different compared to the past.
Suggest all types will be utilised conservatively and the UAV stuff will increasingly evolve.


The down size of course is that helicopters are expensive to both purchase and operate.

So asking how we spend our Army defence budget is appropriate.

Do we need a medium sized transport helicopter I'd say yes.

As to numbers ????????????????????

Really not to sure.
Tell me what the next contingency is and I'll have a better idea.


Cheers S
 
buffy9

buffy9

Well-Known Member
Redlands18 said:
You will need a subscription to view DTR but worth it.

Sept 22 DTR has a news article on the Long-Range Fires program, including
A new Brigade to be raised with the HQ co-located with the RAAF ISR precinct within the Edinburgh Military Precinct in Adelaide.
The new Brigade will include
16th Air Defence Regt with the NASAMS, to be re-located to Edinburgh
14th Regt RAA, LR Fires with HIMARS,
The Anti-Ship Missile project will also come under the new Bde.
9th Reft RAA is also earmarked to form a component.

Also, an article on Varley's bid for the LARC-V replacement.
Click to expand...
I wonder how 9Regt is going to fit into this? They don't necessarily fit the theme of long-range precision fires with mortars and small drones. Perhaps as evolving unit for drones and loitering munitions? Full-time capacity needed?

I dislike the "end of armour" discussion, but getting a sub-unit or unit of drones and loitering munitions alongside 1ARMD and 7RAR (with Cultana in close vicinity) may be a good way to see how we can use/counter these when the time comes. Having them in fires brigade and alongside the ISR precinct might also boost the tactical awareness for both, or (with the right platforms) allow them better ISR in depth as well. Also, support for 1 Brigade and MRF-D just North in terms of littoral training.

As for cost, perhaps reducing part of the Blackhawk buy? Marles has already indicated his own/ALP displeasure, and with the additional four Chinooks it may not be a tremendous loss to reduce them by a small or modest quantity. The same could be said of the Apaches, but I don't know enough to argue for or against it and the project is already in motion.

Platform could be anything (Switchblade, Coyote, Revolver 860, etc) Army thinks is worthwhile, but which is probably limited by scale (the larger and more long-ranged, the more a RAAF program it becomes). Proximity to the RAAF ISR precinct (with Army cover) could see it go a long-way. These may also be relatively rapid procurements which may only need to initially equip a small sub-unit/unit - though I can't say whether this is achievable by 2028 or 2030.

All this is likely to require a degree of full-time personnel though - aided by 6/13 or 9Regt reservists (with a mixture of background and developing knowledge).
 
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A

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
buffy9 said:
I wonder how 9Regt is going to fit into this? They don't necessarily fit the theme of long-range precision fires with mortars and small drones. Perhaps as evolving unit for drones and loitering munitions? Full-time capacity needed?

I dislike the "end of armour" discussion, but getting a sub-unit or unit of drones and loitering munitions alongside 1ARMD and 7RAR (with Cultana in close vicinity) may be a good way to see how we can use/counter these when the time comes. Having them in fires brigade and alongside the ISR precinct might also boost the tactical awareness for both, or (with the right platforms) allow them better ISR in depth as well. Also, support for 1 Brigade and MRF-D just North in terms of littoral training.

As for cost, perhaps reducing part of the Blackhawk buy? Marles has already indicated his own/ALP displeasure, and with the additional four Chinooks it may not be a tremendous loss to reduce them by a small or modest quantity. The same could be said of the Apaches, but I don't know enough to argue for or against it and the project is already in motion.

Platform could be anything (Switchblade, Coyote, Revolver 860, etc) Army thinks is worthwhile, but which is probably limited by scale (the larger and more long-ranged, the more a RAAF program it becomes). Proximity to the RAAF ISR precinct (with Army cover) could see it go a long-way. These may also be relatively rapid procurements which may only need to initially equip a small sub-unit/unit - though I can't say whether this is achievable by 2028 or 2030.

All this is likely to require a degree of full-time personnel though - aided by 6/13 or 9Regt reservists (with a mixture of background and developing knowledge).
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Project LAND 159 Tranche 3 is Army's current (known) project to acquire Loitering Munitions. Whether that is intended to equip DFSW platoons, artillery / mortar units or all the way down to individual soldier level (thinking Defendtex 40 type munitions and / or similar systems) or nothing like this at all, is presently unknown to me and probably most outside Defence.

But regardless of this lack of detail, it exists and these systems are on their way. Will be interesting to see Defence's thinking on this, when it is eventually revealed.
 
M

Massive

Well-Known Member
Redlands18 said:
A new Brigade to be raised with the HQ co-located with the RAAF ISR precinct within the Edinburgh Military Precinct in Adelaide.
The new Brigade will include
16th Air Defence Regt with the NASAMS, to be re-located to Edinburgh
14th Regt RAA, LR Fires with HIMARS,
The Anti-Ship Missile project will also come under the new Bde.
9th Reft RAA is also earmarked to form a component.
Click to expand...
With the exception of the ASM project this to me is yet another example of the penny packet approach to modern capability taken by the ADF,

One air defence regiment for the whole army? One HIMARS regiment? And note that these are in fact 1-2 batteries, with no capability yet delivered.

Regards,

Massive
 
oldsig127

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Massive said:
With the exception of the ASM project this to me is yet another example of the penny packet approach to modern capability taken by the ADF.

Massive
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I'm not sure that's fair. These are entirely new capabilities being introduced to service. Sure, we could order 4 times as many, but we'd not have enough soldiers to operate them, and those we DID have would have no experience doing so, and the Army overall no experience in integrating the new equipment/armaments with existing or other new kit.

AND warehousing them while you build up leaves the possibility that they are discovered to be a poor solution (and *I * at least won't judge by reading manufacturer's brochures or media predictions) OR be made obsolescent by the next advance without ever seeing service except as a Hail Mary backup.

In my *opinion* only, crawl, jog, run like hell seems to be the solution for our times.

oldsig127
 
oldsig127

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Massive said:
Feel the need for this is getting ever closer and a lot quicker than was ever expected.

Regards,

Massive
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No doubt. I'm just suggesting that pinning down what we can do first, then accelerating what we choose after the crawl phase might be a better solution than trying to run first, but like headless chooks, in every direction until we expire.

oldsig127
 
A

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Massive said:
With the exception of the ASM project this to me is yet another example of the penny packet approach to modern capability taken by the ADF,

One air defence regiment for the whole army? One HIMARS regiment? And note that these are in fact 1-2 batteries, with no capability yet delivered.

Regards,

Massive
Click to expand...
The land based ASM is interesting. There is a strong argument that the maritime strike variant of the Precision Strike Missile system, may satisfy the requirement.

In which case the likely solution will be an additional HIMARS acquisition, probably in regimental strength, equating to at least 4 operational batteries.

Such a capability would be comparable in size to a USMC HIMARS Battalion, of which one of 4x batteries supports the USMC 1st Marine Division, a formation 23,000 strong, so larger than any deployable capability we could mount?
 
Lolcake

Lolcake

Active Member

New Video featuring the Bushmaster in action on the Ukranian front lines. Only a short glimpse at around the 1 minute mark.
 
T

the road runner

Active Member
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buffy9

buffy9

Well-Known Member
Lolcake said:

New Video featuring the Bushmaster in action on the Ukranian front lines. Only a short glimpse at around the 1 minute mark.
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the road runner said:
Bushmaster in the Kharkiv region the troops of the 80th Air Assault brigade even thank Australia


Oleksii Reznikov on Twitter: "For the sake of protecting Freedom, it traveled half the world, from the to the . 19,300 km across the Indian Ocean. Sept2022.Thanks to "Bushmaster" #UAarmy came to the Oskil river & continue to liberate Kharkiv region. Thank you to @RichardMarlesMP @AmbVasyl & all people https://t.co/UnI0cSbAUu" / Twitter

EDITED!
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Just to add to the media around the PMV in Ukraine so far, a longer video of thanks has been posted.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1569530398962745344

Hopefully when this is all over (whenever that may be), we can learn from the Ukrainians on how they have used it or could have used it. Whether it is being used as a battlewagon or protected ambulance, they may soon be the conventional SMEs on its use.

I can already certainly see us learning from them in the gun regiments and later on with HIMARS.
 
W

Wombat000

Active Member
buffy9 said:
Just to add to the media around the PMV in Ukraine so far, a longer video of thanks has been posted.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1569530398962745344

Hopefully when this is all over (whenever that may be), we can learn from the Ukrainians on how they have used it or could have used it. Whether it is being used as a battlewagon or protected ambulance, they may soon be the conventional SMEs on its use.

I can already certainly see us learning from them in the gun regiments and later on with HIMARS.
Click to expand...
I imagine RAAF will also be keen on learning from their Air Force resilience in such a hotly contested theatre.
 
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