Australian Army Discussions and Updates

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Going back to basics, and using Australian doctrine.

First up, tanks don't fight alone. They fight in pairs; although for command and control reasons they won't break down beyond a Tp (4x Tk)

The primary unit of deployment preferred by Army to meet its obligations is a Bde (commanded by BRIG). It's the smallest self-contained element that has a decent duration. Now, the make up of a Bde is task dependent, but you can expect there will be five manoeuvre battlegroups (commanded by LTCOL). That gives you:

1. a screen or guard (two different missions, but the bits out front)
2. three main BG that will provide the bulk of the combat power for defending or attacking
3. a security or reserve BG (two different missions) that provide depth to the Bde holding.

The screen/guard has to be mobile, traditionally the role of the old cavalry Regt. It's going to be heavy on recce, light on infantry. If a screen it'll try and avoid decisive contact, if a guard it'll take a fight or two. Either way, expect at least a Sqn of tanks is needed.

The main BG will probably be infantry triangles (3x sub-units, 2 inf and 1 tk) although they could be square BG (2x inf and 2x tk). Let's reduce flexibility and assume triangles. That's three Sqn of tank.

The final BG will 'generally' have less combat power, but will still need lots of mobility. Traditionally called rear-area security operations, it's also seen as a cavalry / infantry role. Likely also to feature the Bde Comd's reserve. There will be another Sqn of Tk here.

Straight up that's 5 Sqn of tank - at least. It would probably be better to have at least two of those main BG square, so it's more like 7. But.....lets go 5.

14 tanks to a Sqn (three Tp's of 4 + a Sqn HQ) means 70 tanks. This is just the fighting force.

Now, lets assume the Bde has some spares to account for attrition. Rule of thumb is about 10% for the combat vehicles, but lets cut that a bit - tanks are pretty tough. So 5.

You aren't deploying this Bde for 6 months and nothing else. There is a second Bde in Australia spooling up to take over. Now, they don't need a whole bunch of tanks, thanks to simulation and the progressive need to increase training you can get away with less. Let's assume that the Bde HQ can do CPX's or use simulated forces to do their training, and lets assume we don't need more than two BG in the field at any one time. Their tanks can rotate around and we can lean on simulators for individual training. So, 2 Sqn, another 28 tanks.

On top of all this is the need to be generating RAAC forces from scratch, as well as continue soldier and officer training. So the School of Armour needs tanks. Now, they can use simulators a lot, so at any one point they need 2x Tp of tk. That means the LT's can continue ROBC simultaneous with a Subject course for an NCO rank. 8 tanks.

For those keeping track...that's 111 tanks.

A bunch of tanks are going to be in maintenance, upgrades and the whole bunch. Treating the tank like the sophisticated platform it is (something we need to get better at), lets steal a helo base. Tiger plans on about 4 airframes in the Regt being in deeper maintenance or modifications at any one time....so 25% of the fleet. I'm happy to fudge the numbers a little....so lets say 19 - it keeps the maths simple.

So for what we need to do, we need 130 tanks.

"But Takao" I hear you say, "that's a big Bde. Maybe we can go smaller, you know, for political reasons". Removing 2 BG (shudder...) takes 28 tanks away. So we only need 102 now.....

We currently have 59 tanks.

So right now, if the PM orders an effect that comes with the need for a Bde, the Army cannot deliver. We can't meet a specified mission. We can if you cut the two BG (shudder...) and run no reserves (shuddddder.... #PrincipleOfWar) and run no training (*twitching uncontrollably*) and assume at least 95% serviceability (*bzzzrtsatrb*). Want to guess how long that lasts? Want to know how many lives that costs?

This is to do the job. Can a Boxer do some of those tasks? Possibly. It doesn't have the firepower, the protection or the mobility, but at a pinch it may. You'll take more losses though. And remember, Boxer is larger than an M1, so its less sneaky. Yeah it could take AGTM - how many? Is it more than 40? Can a Boxer close on a defended position? Wire, bunkers, the lot? Tracks can....wheels....hmmm

TL;DR: We need 130 to do the job. Right now. So the 59 we have isn't enough, and hence we need more. Right now.
Quick questioning, does this sort of explanation ever make it beyond defence? ie: to the political class?

It certainly doesn’t reach the ears of our ‘analytic’ class (or is roundly ignored, if it does…)
 

Redrighthand

New Member
Going back to basics, and using Australian doctrine.

First up, tanks don't fight alone. They fight in pairs; although for command and control reasons they won't break down beyond a Tp (4x Tk)

The primary unit of deployment preferred by Army to meet its obligations is a Bde (commanded by BRIG). It's the smallest self-contained element that has a decent duration. Now, the make up of a Bde is task dependent, but you can expect there will be five manoeuvre battlegroups (commanded by LTCOL). That gives you:
...
TL;DR: We need 130 to do the job. Right now. So the 59 we have isn't enough, and hence we need more. Right now.
Thanks for that. That was really helpful. I guess a question is, then, how much cheaper is the Boxer platform, and how much of those jobs could be done by them? I know it's not a tank, and I understand that tanks are needed, but some of the new IFV's are more capable than last generation tanks. If they're able to do some of the work as well (I'm thinking of those screening roles for example), and if they're substantially cheaper, maybe mixed units of M1's and Boxers could be used. If something is 50% of the price, but 80% as effective, that could work. If it's 50% effective, but 80% of the cost, that's not a solution, to my mind. At any rate, it I didn't realise how few we had. Cheers.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Takao is 99.9% right - the missing .1% being that we have never had enough.

(Bloody auto correct, it keeps changing Takao to takeout)

The discussions on priorities he mentions can get heated; particularly when something one Service or Group, or part of a Service or Group believes is essential gets a priority which means that it will struggle to get funded; all Services and Groups have those. But at the end of the day, the prioritised list represents the best solution the whole Department can come up with. I was Navy, but when I was doing Capability Planning I fought Finance just as hard for armour and transport aircraft as for Navy projects because they were the things the whole Department believed it needed.

Of course, occasionally an urgent requirement arises at short notice, or we get too good an offer to refuse (Choules), both of which can mess up the way in which the priorities are supposed to be funded - that’s life. But I don’t think I ever saw a requirement arise out of nowhere; they were always something we had examined but had had to place, reluctantly, below the line at the time the decisions had to be made.
 
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Takao

The Bunker Group
Quick questioning, does this sort of explanation ever make it beyond defence? ie: to the political class?

It certainly doesn’t reach the ears of our ‘analytic’ class (or is roundly ignored, if it does…)
Sort of.

Normally the project has a budget. Through the process they develop options based on the need and the tender options. So LAND 123 will have a proposal that buys 50 widgets, 75 widgets and 100 widgets. There may be some expansion, so buying 50 we give $1b back, buy another 35 and we need another $1b.

Those options are developed in a similar, but much more detailed process. Finance plays a much larger role, sustainment costs, workforce costs (if we bought 130 tanks we'd need to double RAAC...) etc etc. Most of this detail isn't in the final submission, but it is accessible. Ministers have requested the detailed justification before, but normally they are provided with a small package that has Finance and Defence sign-off and a binary option.
 

Meriv

New Member
Don't know about mixing tracks and wheeled vehicles the only one that do so are the French. Pretty risky considering the difference in mobility. You would end up with Tanks slowing down the wheeled during transport and the wheeled slowing down the tracked in impervious battle terrain.

If it can help we Italians developed the Centauro because of our coastline. Tanks wouldn't arrive in time to oppose an amphibian assault(back in cold war). So the B1 Centauro was developed to use the highway network to fastly arrive and defend the shoreline.

Luckily for us it works pretty well also for low intensity expeditionary. Enough armor against irregular armies and good fire support.

Correct me if I'm mistaken but Australia won't get in a against peer expeditionary mission alone. In that case the tanks would be US ones.

I would understand then a token force as training ground to receive if needed American heavy armor but as a standalone force I wouldn't have considered it a priority.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Quick question, Do we know yet what is happening to out current M1's, And if nothing would their be any slim chance at all in the realm of reality of giving these to say the reserves? Just thinking even without being the most upto date model nor the same as what we will acquire it would get our tank numbers up to where we want them, Though I understand this will depend on training requirements, man power in reserves for them and budget to sustain it.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
Thanks for that. That was really helpful. I guess a question is, then, how much cheaper is the Boxer platform, and how much of those jobs could be done by them? I know it's not a tank, and I understand that tanks are needed, but some of the new IFV's are more capable than last generation tanks. If they're able to do some of the work as well (I'm thinking of those screening roles for example), and if they're substantially cheaper, maybe mixed units of M1's and Boxers could be used. If something is 50% of the price, but 80% as effective, that could work. If it's 50% effective, but 80% of the cost, that's not a solution, to my mind. At any rate, it I didn't realise how few we had. Cheers.
You are sort of asking what the price difference between a Ferrari and a Semi-trailer is and can we buy more of one or the other. Both do broadly the same thing, transport stuff, but fundamentally differently. A Ferrari can do some of the transport a Semi does, and a Semi can do some of the track work a Ferrari does. But you wouldn't.

It's all secret squirrel stuff about cost and capabilities, but based on project figures you can assume a Boxer is about 75% of an M1. The M1 could do about 60 - 80% of a Boxer's job (any RAAC peeps who want to challenge or correct, please go ahead). The Boxer could do maybe 20 - 25% of an M1s tasks, mainly focused on the lower tempo combat scenario's like Afghanistan (ie, 30 mm will work fine against most targets and the armour fine against most threats, so you may be happy taking additional risk).

Log wise they are probably be about the same, slight edge to the Boxer for fuel consumption. Deployability wise no difference. Mobility wise, it depends, but under combat conditions you'd probably give the edge to the M1.

An IFV is an impressive beastie, but that's not the Boxer. Pedantic I know, but... the Boxer is a reconnaissance platform, the eyes. The M1 is the knuckles on the fist, they punch a foe in the face, hurting and scaring the crap out of them. The rest of the fist is the IFVs and the infantry. The IFV operates beside tanks, in the thick of a fight. The CRV will try and avoid that. Hence LAND 400 being split in two. Our IFV will be decided later. I'd suggest the only difference in that para above would be an IFV could do 40 - 50% of an M1s tasks; the better armour and the tracks makes a big difference.

Ironically, in an urban fight, I might consider preferring a K9 over an M1.....but that's a whole other can of worms, and I'll have both RAA and RAAC coming for me!
 

Meriv

New Member
Ironically, in an urban fight, I might consider preferring a K9 over an M1.....but that's a whole other can of worms, and I'll have both RAA and RAAC coming for me!
Why ironically? At Sirte, the ISIS Libyan stronghold the Misurata Militia had one of the last pieces of armor of the country. A Palmaria SPH 155mm. It absolutely rocked, both in indirect and direct fire, playing a central role by sending freaking terrorists to the tomb.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Why ironically? At Sirte, the ISIS Libyan stronghold the Misurata Militia had one of the last pieces of armor of the country. A Palmaria SPH 155mm. It absolutely rocked, both in indirect and direct fire, playing a central role by sending freaking terrorists to the tomb.
A K9, even in as AS9 fitout, doesn’t have the protection levels an M1A2 SEPV3 has, doesn’t have the mobility and whilst it has an impressive firepower, especially for destroying fortifications, buildings etc. should another tank come along, it would be in significant trouble…

Build a better fortification / building demolishing round for the M1A2 and that would be your winner, I suspect…
 

Aardvark144

Active Member
Quick question, Do we know yet what is happening to out current M1's, And if nothing would their be any slim chance at all in the realm of reality of giving these to say the reserves? Just thinking even without being the most upto date model nor the same as what we will acquire it would get our tank numbers up to where we want them, Though I understand this will depend on training requirements, man power in reserves for them and budget to sustain it.
Returned to the US to go back into stock for for future upgrade.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
Thanks Takao,

Fascinating.

Could a US Army Heavy BCT generate 5 battlegroups in this manner? My sense is that they would really only be able to generate 4.

Thanks again,

Massive
You are right, without reinforcement they can only generate four BG.

For us, Bde's are task organised. The force that occupies Enoggera / Lavarack / Robertson/Edinburgh is not a war-fighting formation, it's a force generation formation. You can plug anything into it, although you are probably going to try and keep the number of LTCOL commanders to 4 - 8. 5x BG + 1x CER + 1x Fires Regt + 1 CSSB maximises what the Bde Comd can comfortably command.

You may chose to take less, of course. It may be that we choice to sacrifice one of them. But I think, at the higher levels of war, a combination of the more varied threat and the rate of casualties would force something like a 5 BG force.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
You are right, without reinforcement they can only generate four BG.

For us, Bde's are task organised. The force that occupies Enoggera / Lavarack / Robertson/Edinburgh is not a war-fighting formation, it's a force generation formation. You can plug anything into it, although you are probably going to try and keep the number of LTCOL commanders to 4 - 8. 5x BG + 1x CER + 1x Fires Regt + 1 CSSB maximises what the Bde Comd can comfortably command.

You may chose to take less, of course. It may be that we choice to sacrifice one of them. But I think, at the higher levels of war, a combination of the more varied threat and the rate of casualties would force something like a 5 BG force.
I must confess to still being confused as to what we can actually deploy.
The Army structure I understand is still the same as can be found in this attachment. Yep its wiki!



As Army regular brigades are for force generation not deployment, what can we actually deploy?

Appreciate theirs probably some hush hush stuff here, but are we looking at a reinforced battalion sized force or maybe a very small Brigade.

One Infantry Battalion only with support. Is that it


Cheers S
 

Rock the kasbah

Active Member
I must confess to still being confused as to what we can actually deploy.
The Army structure I understand is still the same as can be found in this attachment. Yep its wiki!



As Army regular brigades are for force generation not deployment, what can we actually deploy?

Appreciate theirs probably some hush hush stuff here, but are we looking at a reinforced battalion sized force or maybe a very small Brigade.

One Infantry Battalion only with support. Is that it


Cheers S
I am only new here but a couple of weeks ago on this thread I asked if Australia had an army or division and a very succinct, knowledgeable and polite contributor informed me that we can almost get a division , will be low on sigs and from memory other important stuff but still a division
It is back there somewhere
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
... at the higher levels of war, a combination of the more varied threat and the rate of casualties would force something like a 5 BG force.
Getting the requisite sub-groups could be achieved by adding (a lot) more tanks. Tanks are manpower efficient for the combat power generated.

An option could be to have two mechanised brigades comprising a cavalry regiment (3 squadron CRV), 2 armoured regiments (2 tank squadron, 1 IFV company) and 2 mechanised regiments (1 tank squadron, 2 IFV company).

Thoughts?

Massive
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
Getting the requisite sub-groups could be achieved by adding (a lot) more tanks. Tanks are manpower efficient for the combat power generated.

An option could be to have two mechanised brigades comprising a cavalry regiment (3 squadron CRV), 2 armoured regiments (2 tank squadron, 1 IFV company) and 2 mechanised regiments (1 tank squadron, 2 IFV company).

Thoughts?

Massive
Agreed. We are a very wealthy high productivity, high labour cost country.

The calculus shouldn’t be “are tanks expensive” (they are) but “how much does a unit of combat power delivered by tanks compare to a unit delivered by light or mechanised infantry.”

My guess is that the all-in unit cost of tanks if measured in this way is much lower.

More tanks.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Getting the requisite sub-groups could be achieved by adding (a lot) more tanks. Tanks are manpower efficient for the combat power generated.

An option could be to have two mechanised brigades comprising a cavalry regiment (3 squadron CRV), 2 armoured regiments (2 tank squadron, 1 IFV company) and 2 mechanised regiments (1 tank squadron, 2 IFV company).

Thoughts?

Massive
Massive could you please qualify, is this the total regiments for each brigade or across two brigades.

Unless I'm mistake Army currently have for the " heavy stuff ".

3 x Tanks Sqns
6 x Cav Sqns
9 x Mech Inf Company's.

Total of 18 Coy / Sqn

I'm not sure what the future holds for brigade composition and specialization.

Therefore the above looks like what we mix and match with both for now and into the future.


Any news out there.



Regards S
 
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