Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[Stampede]

G'day

Noticed a piece in the Army Newspaper about the first graduates for the armour capability of 2/14 LHR-QMI. I wonder as 7 Brigade is now getting kitted out with M1A1 tanks if the pressure will be on to increase the Army's tank fleets numbers sooner rather than later.
I understand 7 Bde will be the ready Brigade within the year so busy days for all of those involved in getting up to speed.

Regards S

 

[Navor86]

The second cav squadron is just the first cav squadron cut in half (three 4-vehicle troops instead of four 6-vehicle troops). With the addition of an extra SHQ and A1, two squadrons are far more flexible than one, as it essentially means you can have cav on two different axis at once. It won't mean any more vehicles are purchased - the current scope of Land 400 Phase 2 is more than enough.

Hello,
is this set-up still up to date,or have there been any changes made to the composition to the cav squadron?
Will the squadrons only made up of the recon and counter recon variant of the CRV or will they also include the surveillance variant?

 

[Raven22]

Hello,
is this set-up still up to date,or have there been any changes made to the composition to the cav squadron?
Will the squadrons only made up of the recon and counter recon variant of the CRV or will they also include the surveillance variant?

It's still more or less accurate. The sabre troops will consist only of gun cars. There will still be a surveillance troop at regimental level.

 

[Navor86]

It's still more or less accurate. The sabre troops will consist only of gun cars. There will still be a surveillance troop at regimental level.

Thank you.
What about Cav Scouts? Will they be integral to the Sabre Squadrons or will they be attached from the Reserves?

 

[aussienscale]

Defence Technology Review : DTR OCT 2017, Page 4

Page 34, noticed this while flicking through after Stampede posted the link on the RAN Thread, very interesting, had not heard that bit of info before ?

Very interesting in the context of Land 400 Ph3 ! Certainly opens the field up a whole lot more, potentially better value bids with much more competition in the field, with potentially multiple bids from vendors.

Would certainly be hard to back a favourite now

Cheers

 

[Raven22]

Thank you.
What about Cav Scouts? Will they be integral to the Sabre Squadrons or will they be attached from the Reserves?

No cav scouts in the ARA. They'll be provided from the linked ARES units as available.

Why we are buying new CRVs based on giant IFV hulls if we don't have scouts I'm not exactly sure.

 

[Navor86]

Yeah this seems rather stupid to me. An overall increase of the Army is in order,rather then this shuffeling of manpower.

 

[ADMk2]

No cav scouts in the ARA. They'll be provided from the linked ARES units as available.

Why we are buying new CRVs based on giant IFV hulls if we don't have scouts I'm not exactly sure.

If they can be trained adequately which not all in RAAC believe can happen, from what I hear... Even the odd question raised about why those units even exist if they can’t provide trained Cav scouts...

I find it astonishing how little our Army and Government seem to care about reserves. In the United States part time soldiers and airmen fly fighter jets, helicopters and operate capabilities up to and including entire Armoured Brigade Combat Teams...

In Australia we are struggling to train reserves now in a role we used to handle with ease in the 80’s and 90’s with far less funding...

 

[ADMk2]

No cav scouts in the ARA. They'll be provided from the linked ARES units as available.

Why we are buying new CRVs based on giant IFV hulls if we don't have scouts I'm not exactly sure.

Someone in Army is a huge baseball fan? If you build it, they will come...

 

[hairyman]

I know it is early days, but has anything been heard about the progress of the Nasam system to be designed and built in Australia?

 

[vonnoobie]

I know it is early days, but has anything been heard about the progress of the Nasam system to be designed and built in Australia?

Note: Not fully designed or built here but in part.

At present I'd say they are putting the team togethor from all parties conerned to work out what vehicles to use, how to mount the radar, how to intergrate everything etc. Integrating CEAFAR into this I imagine will require new coding.

Said system isn't meant to be in service until early 2020's according to the DWP but with the NK scare some politicians may push it up thinking the NASAM will make a difference.

 

[hairyman]

I know I have raised this issue before, but the situation puzzles me.
We recently purchased an additional six Hercules M88 Recovery Vehicles (we already had seven, and only 59 tanks). Did we get these M88's because we are going to get more Abrams Main Battle Tanks? Or are we hanging off them with a view to get a different tank, such as the new light weight tanks under consideration both in the US and joint effort Franco/German? And if we are getting additional Abrams why have'nt we ordered them yet?

 

[Raven22]

I know I have raised this issue before, but the situation puzzles me.
We recently purchased an additional six Hercules M88 Recovery Vehicles (we already had seven, and only 59 tanks). Did we get these M88's because we are going to get more Abrams Main Battle Tanks? Or are we hanging off them with a view to get a different tank, such as the new light weight tanks under consideration both in the US and joint effort Franco/German? And if we are getting additional Abrams why have'nt we ordered them yet?

This has been covered a few times. The extra M88s were due to the tank regiment being split over the three ACRs, and the need to support M1s in four locations rather than two. The 13 M88s will allow three per brigade (one in the tank squadron A1, one in the ACR A2, and one at the CSSB), a couple to support the school of armour, and one or two to support training at the school of logistics.

I wouldn’t anticipate extra tanks being ordered before LAND 907 Phase 2 early next decade.

 

[Stampede]

This has been covered a few times. The extra M88s were due to the tank regiment being split over the three ACRs, and the need to support M1s in four locations rather than two. The 13 M88s will allow three per brigade (one in the tank squadron A1, one in the ACR A2, and one at the CSSB), a couple to support the school of armour, and one or two to support training at the school of logistics.

I wouldn’t anticipate extra tanks being ordered before LAND 907 Phase 2 early next decade.

Now we have three like brigades it will be interesting how Army manages with 59 Tanks to sustain the tempo of training and availability of tank numbers across four separate locations.
Maybe some merit of a modest boost in numbers of existing M1A1's before the outcome of LAND 907 Phase 2 is set in concrete.
It wont break the bank but will give some armoured insurance in the immediate years ahead; especially as the ASLAV and M113A4 fleets are limited by age and capability.
Maybe something to look at in 2018!
Early 2020's looks a long way away as do the outcomes of LAND 400.

Regards S

 

[old faithful]

Unless Abrahms is not actually part of a long term plan.....alternative maybe?
They are very thirsty, short legged vehicles. Maybe a traditional diesal is preferred?

 

[t68]

Unless Abrahms is not actually part of a long term plan.....alternative maybe?
They are very thirsty, short legged vehicles. Maybe a traditional diesal is preferred?

I think Raven will be the best placed to answer this question on current MBT replacement and what should suit ADF CONOPS, if the choice was purely on being a diesel power pack It would be between Leopard 2 (German) K2 Black Panther (S Korea) and Merkava mkIII (Israel) but a future wild card could be leopard 3 which a study is ongoing between the Gernans &French

Get Ready, Russia: This European Power Has Plans For a Lethal New Tank | The National Interest Blog

 

[CJR]

I think Raven will be the best placed to answer this question on current MBT replacement and what should suit ADF CONOPS, if the choice was purely on being a diesel power pack It would be between Leopard 2 (German) K2 Black Panther (S Korea) and Merkava mkIII (Israel) but a future wild card could be leopard 3 which a study is ongoing between the Gernans &French

I presume you mean Merkava Mk IV... the Mk III has been out of production since the early 2000s.

There's also the Japanese Type 10. Arguably, it's relatively light weight (certainly at the cost of a three man rather than four man crew, possibly some cost in protection) may make it suitable for Aus given (1) the current emphasis on amphib capabilities, and (2) the relatively poor infrastructure up north. Of cause, comes with the whole baggage of Japan's military export policies and potential future changes. And the whole small global fleet size factor making support costs more expensive than a Leopard II or M1...

 

[Joe Black]

Why not, like the Singaporean and Indonesian armies, get the 2nd hand Leo2A4 from the German stock and upgrade them to the latest standards.

 

[t68]

Why not, like the Singaporean and Indonesian armies, get the 2nd hand Leo2A4 from the German stock and upgrade them to the latest standards.

that's what we did with Abrams, used hulls stripped down and zero hour's refurbishment.

cost v benefit diesels may have cheaper operational cost but one must look at the capability as whole, I'm not knowledgeable enough to say which is the best designed capability to match our sop's, but it comes back to capability v cost

 

[Todjaeger]

Why not, like the Singaporean and Indonesian armies, get the 2nd hand Leo2A4 from the German stock and upgrade them to the latest standards.

With all this talk of 'new' MBT's for Australia... I have to seriously ask, what would be the point?

I do agree that more MBT's might be appropriate if units which either operate armour, or need to operate/train alongside armour are going to be distributed to more posts around Australia. The same would apply if it was deemed advisable for Australia to have a larger pool of MBT's to draw upon.

What does not make any sense to me, given how recently Australia got the M1A1 AIM Abrams tanks, would be for Australia to dump those tanks and go with another roughly equivalent design.

IMO it would make far more sense to either get more M1A1 AIM tanks, or if more and improved versions were desired, have the existing stocks upgraded to an appropriate version along with ordering the extra numbers required. If it was deemed not practical to upgrade the existing versions in Australia to the desired standard, then order the version from the US and trade the existing M1A1 AIM tanks in for re-manufacture.

That seems far more sensible than needing to train crews and support on how to operate and maintain a different MBT with an entirely different support chain. I do not see a significant capability advantage other modern MBT designs have over various versions of the Abrams to make such a change worthwhile. If there were a generational difference in capability, like there had been in switching from Australia's Leopard I's to the M1A1 AIM Abrams, then the situation would be different.