A26 - super sub?

[rattmuff]

A26 is a new submarine under development by Kockums together with FMV(swedens defence material administration) and from my point of view it seems to be a very capable sub equipped with the latest technology you can get your hands on. They say it's based on the awesome A19(Gotland class) submarines.

A26 will feature such things as better hydrodynamical(?) shapes for better stealth capability, platform build-up in a floating rubber construction(same as Gotland but more evolved) for easier configurations and to protect the crew from all shockspectrums of a waterexplosion, all equippment mounted on rubber bags, a gigatic hatch in the bow for specops deployment and the final thing is very surprisingly a 25-30mm automatic cannon for self defence on the surface and periscopedepth.

The sub will also have several UUVs for minesearching, monitoring, mapping surroundings, scouting rivers/harbours, deploy sensors and deploy mines.
Of course a Stirling AIP engine will bring the sub forward and backword.
This sub are meant to travel 50% faster than the A19 on blue sea.

Basic facts
Deplacement: 1400 tones
Crew: 17-31
Cargo: flexible
Speed transit: 1.5V

http://www.nti.org/db/submarines/sweden/index.html
http://www.fmv.se/upload/Bilder%20och%20dokument/Publikationer/Informationsmaterial/PROTEC/protec01_06.pdf
the last one is in swedish but it has some nice illustrations and pictures.

 

[Big-E]

Not bad but what's super about it?

 

[RubiconNZ]

New Sub

Mmm I was hoping for something 300 metres long with Armed UUVs, a 200 person crew and and a few hundred cruise missiles and torpedos, does sound good though, the Auto Cannon is sounds good certainly give a ASW Helo a nice suprise. It would be interesting to see how fast they can get it though a non nuke boat doing 20-24 Knots ccertainly would be Super.

 

[Jtimes2]

A26 is a new submarine under development by Kockums together with FMV(swedens defence material administration) and from my point of view it seems to be a very capable sub equipped with the latest technology you can get your hands on. They say it's based on the awesome A19(Gotland class) submarines.

A26 will feature such things as better hydrodynamical(?) shapes for better stealth capability, platform build-up in a floating rubber construction(same as Gotland but more evolved) for easier configurations and to protect the crew from all shockspectrums of a waterexplosion, all equippment mounted on rubber bags, a gigatic hatch in the bow for specops deployment and the final thing is very surprisingly a 25-30mm automatic cannon for self defence on the surface and periscopedepth.

The sub will also have several UUVs for minesearching, monitoring, mapping surroundings, scouting rivers/harbours, deploy sensors and deploy mines.
Of course a Stirling AIP engine will bring the sub forward and backword.
This sub are meant to travel 50% faster than the A19 on blue sea.

Basic facts
Deplacement: 1400 tones
Crew: 17-31
Cargo: flexible
Speed transit: 1.5V

http://www.nti.org/db/submarines/sweden/index.html
http://www.fmv.se/upload/Bilder%20och%20dokument/Publikationer/Informationsmaterial/PROTEC/protec01_06.pdf
the last one is in swedish but it has some nice illustrations and pictures.

Are you serious about the 25mm/30mm autocannon? That seems incredible. First of all; where would it be stowed? Even something like the Israeli 25mm Typhoon takes up a fair amount of space. How would you house the ammo feed system on a small cramped diesel sub? Would it penetrate the pressure hull, or, would the ammo be exposed to seawater?

How would the gun be targeted? Even on the surface with electro-optical assisted aiming; the chances of acquiring and hitting a moving ASW aircraft before it can drop a homing torpedo are slim to none. And to fire it from persicope depth? You mean from underwater?!?!?!? How the heck would you do that?

Anyways excellent post otherwise; good info on the Swede subs. I have always been a fan of their undersea force and military in general.

 

[Marc Aurel]

Are you serious about the 25mm/30mm autocannon? That seems incredible. First of all; where would it be stowed? Even something like the Israeli 25mm Typhoon takes up a fair amount of space. How would you house the ammo feed system on a small cramped diesel sub? Would it penetrate the pressure hull, or, would the ammo be exposed to seawater?

How would the gun be targeted? Even on the surface with electro-optical assisted aiming; the chances of acquiring and hitting a moving ASW aircraft before it can drop a homing torpedo are slim to none. And to fire it from persicope depth? You mean from underwater?!?!?!? How the heck would you do that?

Anyways excellent post otherwise; good info on the Swede subs. I have always been a fan of their undersea force and military in general.

Ever seen an WWII SUB? They ALL had guns on board. All this isn´t to difficult technically.

 

[rattmuff]

Not bad but what's super about it?

I don't know what makes it "super" it's just a bad title

Are you serious about the 25mm/30mm autocannon? That seems incredible. First of all; where would it be stowed? Even something like the Israeli 25mm Typhoon takes up a fair amount of space. How would you house the ammo feed system on a small cramped diesel sub? Would it penetrate the pressure hull, or, would the ammo be exposed to seawater?

How would the gun be targeted? Even on the surface with electro-optical assisted aiming; the chances of acquiring and hitting a moving ASW aircraft before it can drop a homing torpedo are slim to none. And to fire it from persicope depth? You mean from underwater?!?!?!? How the heck would you do that?

Yes, I'm serious about the autocannon. The study on an autocannon most be finnished now. However there are no info avialable.
Do you got any info about the Israeli 25mm Typhoon?

I believe they wrote the article about A26 because Kockums and FMV has decided to start designing the sub. Maybe I should have made it clear in my intitial post for everyone that this sub is just on paper and the goal is to start all tests by 2007 and have a fully operational A26 class sub by 2015 when SwRN scrap/sell the two Västergötland(Södermanland) class subs.

 

[Big-E]

Autocannons, thats worse than the grail launchers the Russians installed. If they need some kind of AAW capability why not insall a box set of stinger missiles?

 

[dreamwarrior73]

doesn't the French Scorpene subs have the capability to launch the Mica SAM?

maybe the Swedes A26 subs can follow the same concept for AAW.

 

[Jtimes2]

Ever seen an WWII SUB? They ALL had guns on board. All this isn´t to difficult technically.

Yes but that's a different context than this. The old sub deck guns were hand-loaded, hand-aimed, line-of-sight cannons, usually 3" or 5". They took time (and crewmen) to man, more time to make ready for action, and even more time to load and fire. Time = death for a sub on the surface. The ammo feed from below was by a hand-loaded chute; very slow rate of fire. Also, the ammo chute was another pressure hull penetration....bad for damage control. By early 1945 the Kriegsmarine had stopped installing them on newbuild U-boats, and by 1946-1947 the USN removed them as well.

The old diesel subs also usually had a MG or 20mm AA gun, these were even more useless. The chances of one gunner hitting an oncoming plane in time with a hand-elevated, eyeball-aimed weapon is miniscule. They were all deleted with the deck guns or shortly thereafter.

 

[Big-E]

I would like to question the need for subs to have AAW capability in the first place. If you are close enough to engage a Helo with cannons you are gauranteed dead by surfacing. If you stand off and shoot them down with missiles you still have to surface, thereby dead.

 

[Jtimes2]

I don't know what makes it "super" it's just a bad title


Yes, I'm serious about the autocannon. The study on an autocannon most be finnished now. However there are no info avialable.
Do you got any info about the Israeli 25mm Typhoon?

I believe they wrote the article about A26 because Kockums and FMV has decided to start designing the sub. Maybe I should have made it clear in my intitial post for everyone that this sub is just on paper and the goal is to start all tests by 2007 and have a fully operational A26 class sub by 2015 when SwRN scrap/sell the two Västergötland(Södermanland) class subs.

No worries, it was a good post. Typhoon is actually the name of a mount manufactured by Rafael (of air-to-air missile fame). It can fit various 20mm, 25mm, 30mm, or 40mm guns. The unique aspect is that it's gyro-stabilized in three dimensions: Even if the ship is pitching, rolling, and cresting a wave; it remains slaved on-target. So it's particularly suitable for smallcraft that operate in bad weather. It's unmanned and controlled from anywhere in the ship by joystick; or; fired automatically by the ship's radars.

It's currently installed on the private-build prototype for the next-generation Israeli patrol boat, the RAN's Armidale class, and the new PC for the Turkish navy (sorry I can't remember the name of that class....it's after midnight already! ) Just about every navy on Earth is interested in it. Rafael is already working on a follow-up. There's also a gunless version that fires Stinger SAMs and countermeasure rockets; I can't find much info on that one though. Here's the gun versions:
PHOTO: http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/naval/typhoon/typhoon_tf1.gif

 

[Jtimes2]

I would like to question the need for subs to have AAW capability in the first place. If you are close enough to engage a Helo with cannons you are gauranteed dead by surfacing. If you stand off and shoot them down with missiles you still have to surface, thereby dead.

Exactly. Once every decade or so, a cockamanie scheme for submarine AAW comes up. (think of the Blowpipe on the Israeli Gals in the 1970s or Grail on the Kilos in the 1980s) To acquire an ASW helo precisely enough to engage it, you'd have to be on or near the surface. And if there's aircraft in the area, that's the dumbest thing a sub could do.

The best submarine AAW tactic is to go deep, go quiet, and leave the area. Unless it's being swarmed, it's pretty easy to ditch aircraft. With every second that passes after they lose contact on their dunking sonar/sonobouys, the range circle where the submarine might potentially be expands exponentially. Most dunking sonars only have a range of 1NM and the helo's fuel is limited; so it's easy to break contact; even for a non-AIP diesel boat.

 

[Big-E]

Exactly. Once every decade or so, a cockamanie scheme for submarine AAW comes up. (think of the Blowpipe on the Israeli Gals in the 1970s or Grail on the Kilos in the 1980s) To acquire an ASW helo precisely enough to engage it, you'd have to be on or near the surface. And if there's aircraft in the area, that's the dumbest thing a sub could do.

The best submarine AAW tactic is to go deep, go quiet, and leave the area. Unless it's being swarmed, it's pretty easy to ditch aircraft. With every second that passes after they lose contact on their dunking sonar/sonobouys, the range circle where the submarine might potentially be expands exponentially. Most dunking sonars only have a range of 1NM and the helo's fuel is limited; so it's easy to break contact; even for a non-AIP diesel boat.

It might be nice to develop a submerged launched SAM that can be deployed without giving away the location of the sub. It couldn't be fired from the tubes as that makes too much noise. What if they had a tube that could be unnlatched from the sub containing a VLS SAM. A time delay could be made from unlatching so the sub could put some distance b/w her and the tube. When the tube launches and gets the kill the other ASW platforms won't have a target except the empty tube. :idea2

 

[Jtimes2]

It might be nice to develop a submerged launched SAM that can be deployed without giving away the location of the sub. It couldn't be fired from the tubes as that makes too much noise. What if they had a tube that could be unnlatched from the sub containing a VLS SAM. A time delay could be made from unlatching so the sub could put some distance b/w her and the tube. When the tube launches and gets the kill the other ASW platforms won't have a target except the empty tube. :idea2

The problem is less launching and more guidance:
1) A radar-guided SAM needs to be "illuminated" to the target by a radar, obviously a submerged sub can't do that.
2) An IR guided SAM has to be locked-on before launch (like the "growl" an AIM-7 makes), after which it guides itself. The Israelis tried to get around this by interfacing Blowpipe with the periscope; apparently it didn't work too well.

Another problem is acquiring the helo/plane in the first place. Even at low altitude, an aircraft can spot a raised scope from much farther than the scope operator can pick out the aircraft. By the time the plane is spotted and SAM/autocannon/whatever is activated, the aircraft will likely already be on top of the sub like me on cheap beer.

I like your idea; I can't find it on the www anywhere but a few years ago I read about a Russian project almost identical to that. Basically, they floated a "SAM sled" out of a 21" torpedo tube. It floted to the surface, popped open, and contained a robotic IR sensor and a SAM. The sensor searched, locked-on to any heat source it detected in the air, and fired. I have no idea what the system was called or what became of it.

 

[Big-E]

The problem is less launching and more guidance:
1) A radar-guided SAM needs to be "illuminated" to the target by a radar, obviously a submerged sub can't do that.
2) An IR guided SAM has to be locked-on before launch (like the "growl" an AIM-7 makes), after which it guides itself. The Israelis tried to get around this by interfacing Blowpipe with the periscope; apparently it didn't work too well.

Another problem is acquiring the helo/plane in the first place. Even at low altitude, an aircraft can spot a raised scope from much farther than the scope operator can pick out the aircraft. By the time the plane is spotted and SAM/autocannon/whatever is activated, the aircraft will likely already be on top of the sub like me on cheap beer.

I like your idea; I can't find it on the www anywhere but a few years ago I read about a Russian project almost identical to that. Basically, they floated a "SAM sled" out of a 21" torpedo tube. It floted to the surface, popped open, and contained a robotic IR sensor and a SAM. The sensor searched, locked-on to any heat source it detected in the air, and fired. I have no idea what the system was called or what became of it.

What if the sub floated a mini floating sky search radar controlled by satellite ground based stations. She could float up several tubes of SAMS and have the data relayed to the stations. In effect a SAM net has been floated to the surface just waiting for victims to fall pray.:lol3

 

[RubiconNZ]

SAM's in Subs

Don't forget that the Russian Kilo Class had a eight launcher for the SA-N-8 Gremelin or Gimlet

The submarine has a launcher for eight Strela-3 or Igla surface-to-air missiles. These missiles are manufactured by the Fakel Design Bureau, Kaliningrad. Strela- 3 (NATO Designation SA-N-8 Gremlin) has a cooled infrared seeker and 2kg warhead. Maximum range is 6km. Igla (NATO designation SA-N-10 Gimlet) is also infrared-guided but heavier, with a maximum range of 5km and speed of Mach 1.65.

http://flot.sevastopol.info/eng/ship/submarines/b871.htm


I don't know how well they work but they are there and 5 klicks is far enough away to swat a chopper down, not a P3 with the new high altitude torp drop but still could work....

 

[Big-E]

I don't know how well they work but they are there and 5 klicks is far enough away to swat a chopper down, not a P3 with the newhigh altitude torp drop but still good work....

If she surfaces she is dead, period.

 

[RubiconNZ]

Sitting Duck...

If she surfaces she is dead, period.

Yeah I'd imagine it would possibly buy a a dew seconds to distract ASW crews be it plane chopper, if you got caught on the surface, but as you say I wouldn't rate the chance

 

[rattmuff]

I think the A26 main use is international service, UN/EU operations. My though is that the autocannons main use is to protect the sub from rebels, insurgants, terrrorists... people with small arms and RPGs and if the sub gets spotted by a chopper with bombs it's doomed.


:dunce

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

doesn't the French Scorpene subs have the capability to launch the Mica SAM?

Not yet, this is an experimental concept. The missile used is an IR-guided Mica (the same used on Mirage / Rafale Fighters). The main difference between the Sa-7/Sa-14 launched from the Kilo class diesel subs and the Mica is that the later is launched trough the standard 533 mm torpedoe tubes being encapsuled in a underwater vehicle like the SM-39 Exocet anti-ship missile.
The Mica is a lock-on after launch missile, primarly targeting informations are collected by the attack periscope. Note that it can be launched while underwater and away of the sub location thanks to the capability of the underwater vehicle (like the Exocet).