Super radar detecting US stealth plane

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Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
No... It's believed Australia and Russia are developing such Anti-Stealth Radars
JORN has some anti stealth detection capabilities, but it still cant target a VLO platform. It is hardly an 'anti stealth' radar. In fact there is an ongoing thread regurading this HF OHR system (which is stated to be the most capable of its type in the world):

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1832

Have a read. Aparently it has detected VLO platforms before, but just detecting a platform does not mean you can do anything about it. You need to be able to track a target to engage it, and JORN (and the russian equivelent) can not do that.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
armage said:
Is the Czech the only country that have this Anti-Sealth Radar?

No, I can think of 5 countries with various degrees of LO detection capability.

btw, there is no such thing as "anti-stealth radar"
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
I wonder if a steath B-2 can be deteced by its IR signature? Also, at high altitudes the exhausts form contrails (in certain conditions) which could also show on radar.
 

onslaught

New Member
I wonder if a steath B-2 can be deteced by its IR signature? Also, at high altitudes the exhausts form contrails (in certain conditions) which could also show on radar.
Pretty much all stealth aircraft are designed to mask their IR emissions to some extent so what are these "certain conditions"?
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
There is a sizeable load of complete nonsense in this thread in terms of people’s complete lack of understanding about stealth and in particular radar low observability.

A stealth aircraft like the F-117, B-2, F-22 and F-35 is designed to reduce its radar signature to such a point it becomes impossible to track. It does this via two main methods: channelled radio frequency (RF) energy reflection and radar absorption materials (RAM). The second part is pretty straight forward – absorb the RF so you can’t be detected/tracked. The first part requires a bit of geometry knowledge to understand, but very basic.

A stealth aircraft is designed to reflect RF to 45, 135, 225 and 315 degrees (NE, SE, SW, NW). This is why all the surfaces are symmetrically aligned. Because of this its radar reflection to 0, 90, 180 and 270 degrees (N, E, S, W) is very small (and usually almost nothing thanks to RAM). Stealth designers make sure that enough RF is reflected to match background radiation, black holes can be detected.

While this may seem to be an incomplete solution, reflecting RF to the non-cardinal points of the compass makes an aircraft impossible to detect and track. Because its moving.

A moving vehicle will sustain a pretty solid angular relationship to something located in front of it, on its sides and behind it. But the angular relationship to something at 45, 135, 225 and 315 degrees will widely fluctuate.

Because of this the radar peak reflection areas are not exposed to any radar long enough to enable detection. The only way around this is if the aircraft begins to hover or the radar precisely matches its course and velocity, which since it can’t track it in the first place is impossible, or a very large number of radars are networked together to notice all the brief reflections (which is much easier to say than do on the scale needed to track a stealth aircraft).

Stealth is designed to work against the kind of radars and how they are positioned on the battlefield in relationship to the stealthy aircraft. Since different radar frequencies can be reflected and absorbed in different ways sometimes compromises have to be made. Also the lateral relationship between the aircraft and the radars need to be taken into account.

The reason JORN can supposedly detect and track the B-2 is it is not designed to face a radars operating from high above it, as over the horizon backscatter radars (like JORN) do by reflecting RF of the ionosphere (like an AEW&C flying at 240,000 feet) or at such low frequencies. However a stealthy aircraft like the US Navy’s A-12, if it ever flew, optimised to defeat radar from above, if it ever worked, could possibility defeat JORN. Of course this is assuming that the B-2A hasn’t been fitted with a new layer of 5-20 MHz RAM across the top of the aircraft…
 

lobbie111

New Member
How much does it cost roughly per plane to coat them in RAM? What is the ideal type of radar to defeat or mitigate the effects of American low observable technology? Is there even one?

And in regards to the F-35 JSF, is that as LO as the F-22?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
How much does it cost roughly per plane to coat them in RAM?
RAM is not like buying paint from the hardware shop. There are different methods, coatings and characteristics. 20 years ago they were literally applying RAM blankets (and they were actually called "blankets" onto some platforms. Some coatings are sprayed on in special conditions - and recoated after "nn" missions. Its therefore impossible to state a price as 1) there is no public information
2) it will vary with the platform to be coated as to what RAM coating is applicable.

What is the ideal type of radar to defeat or mitigate the effects of American low observable technology? Is there even one?
I think you need to read and absorb the comments made about the history of LO aircraft development again.

And in regards to the F-35 JSF, is that as LO as the F-22?
No, The F-22 is designed for air dominance its an air superiority asset, its LO characteristics are tuned for likely mission roles. ditto for the JSF which in all likelihood will be first day of war anyway as it will be the majority DEAD/SEAD asset.

chalk and cheese
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
Contrails can be managed
How? I'm all ears! The contrails can form in certain athmospheric conditions, but the IR engine exhaust signature, IMO, can't be fully masked. The defenders can use AWACS and/or other interceptors to scan the sky with IR detectors during a crisis.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
How? I'm all ears! The contrails can form in certain athmospheric conditions, but the IR engine exhaust signature, IMO, can't be fully masked. The defenders can use AWACS and/or other interceptors to scan the sky with IR detectors during a crisis.
I forgot that you are the resident ewarfare and sensor expert. If you say so. :D
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
How? I'm all ears! The contrails can form in certain athmospheric conditions, but the IR engine exhaust signature, IMO, can't be fully masked. The defenders can use AWACS and/or other interceptors to scan the sky with IR detectors during a crisis.
Ahh IR signatures.... Did you know that for a typical non-afterburning turbojet 85% of the engine IR signature is actually caused by the hot metal of the tailpipe or surfaces in contact with the engine? Only 15% is the exhaust. With a turbofan that generates thrust by higher mass flow compared to exhaust velocity the exhaust signature is lower (for equiv. thrust). Now a stealthy aircraft tends to either have its engine fully masked by other parts of the airframe (like the B-2) or a low profile exhaust (like the F-22/F-35) that is designed to operate with reduced signature.

The actual exhaust isn't that hot and quickly dissipates in the atmosphere and goes to the rear of the aircraft which doesn’t help you that much if you are trying to track an incoming threat.


Further detecting and tracking IR signatures is very hard. One of the best IRST in the world is the Sagem Vampir NG. It can only detect a conventional aircraft at ranges of around 20km when a long range radar could do it at 400km.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Further detecting and tracking IR signatures is very hard. One of the best IRST in the world is the Sagem Vampir NG. It can only detect a conventional aircraft at ranges of around 20km when a long range radar could do it at 400km.
IRST to AWACs is also akin to trying to target a flying object by looking at it through a straw ....
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Further detecting and tracking IR signatures is very hard. One of the best IRST in the world is the Sagem Vampir NG. It can only detect a conventional aircraft at ranges of around 20km when a long range radar could do it at 400km.
To be fair to IRST systems though, the Vampir NG system has that range from surface based platforms detecting objects "on the horizon".

Surface based radar doesn't have that much of greater "horizon" either.

Aerial IRST are reportedly capable of greater detection and tracking ranges, but I agree that they are limited compared to radar surveillance systems...
 

lobbie111

New Member
Is there an infrared radar of sorts? or does it have to be a line of sight thing? And another question not related to this is that if AWACS detects planes why can't they themselves be fitted with missiles when desired.
 

Chrom

New Member
Is there an infrared radar of sorts? or does it have to be a line of sight thing? And another question not related to this is that if AWACS detects planes why can't they themselves be fitted with missiles when desired.
1. Most radars are "line of sight things".

2. There is no pure infrared radar (or should we call it irdar? )developed as radar should be able to measure range by definition. Pure infrared means cant. However, in conjuction with other systems they can do it. For example, in conjuction with radar or laser rangefinder. It could be quite effective combination, almost as "stealth" as pure infrared detection. There are many such combined systems used both in aircrafts and elsewhere.

3. There is a possibilty to get range by using 2 (and more) infrared detectors and triangulation. Still this way would be quite complex and unrealiable. As much as i know it is not used in miliraty technic.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
1. Most radars are "line of sight things".

2. There is no pure infrared radar (or should we call it irdar? )developed as radar should be able to measure range by definition. Pure infrared means cant. However, in conjuction with other systems they can do it. For example, in conjuction with radar or laser rangefinder. It could be quite effective combination, almost as "stealth" as pure infrared detection. There are many such combined systems used both in aircrafts and elsewhere.

3. There is a possibilty to get range by using 2 (and more) infrared detectors and triangulation. Still this way would be quite complex and unrealiable. As much as i know it is not used in miliraty technic.
The problem with using IRST as pointed out above is that it cannot determine range on it's own, as far as I understand.

It needs off-board target data (such as a radar track by an AEW&C aircraft or other fighter) to determine range to target and target location, to operate passively.

If an integral laser range finder were to be used the aircraft can no longer "passively" detect and might as well just go active with the radar. In any case even the best aerial IRST systems are range restricted to about 70k's, far short of even less powerful fighter sized fire control radars...

Most fighter aircraft have "laser warning systems" fitted these days and without possibly knowing the specific capabilities of these systems, it seems likely that an active laser targetting system could be detected as easily as a radar is with radar warning receivers, except that laser targeting/IRST doesn't offer volume search capability, nor the range that modern fighter radars do.

In an environment when you are well supported by AEW&C, over the horizon radars (OTHR), or strong ground based radar coverage, plus good networking capabilities and your fighters have good IRST capability and long ranged EO/IR guided air to air missiles, then they might offer good "passive" engagement capability. A country like France for instance which has all this, probably benefits greatly from it.

All EO/IR targetting systems are "line of sight" systems as are most radar systems. This is because of the limited ability of even radar to penetrate the Earth and the fact that the Earth is round...

Only OTHR, which work by bouncing radar waves off the Ionosphere or similar can operate "over the horizon"...
 

lobbie111

New Member
I meant direct line of sight, the plane has to bne able to be seen or even heard by the operator to be used sorry if that diddnt make sense
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I wonder if a steath B-2 can be deteced by its IR signature? Also, at high altitudes the exhausts form contrails (in certain conditions) which could also show on radar.
As GF said, contrails can be managed. IIRC the original plan was to include tanks of alcohol (isopropyl, why waste a good Glenlivet?) to mix into the fuel inflight, or else have the alcohol already added into the fuel. The presence of the alcohol would prevent/inhibit the water vapour in the engine exhaust forming ice crystals which make up contrails.

AFAIK other means were used to ultimately prevent the engines of a B-2 from forming contrails and alcohol is not carried onboard.

-Cheers
 

Chrom

New Member
I meant direct line of sight, the plane has to bne able to be seen or even heard by the operator to be used sorry if that diddnt make sense
"Direct line of sight" tells almost nothing. A pilot with excellent eyes in good air conditions might see even father than modern radar :) I'm talking 100+ km here. Of course, in average case it is much less - but you got the point.
 

lobbie111

New Member
What are the chances of using a variety of detection capabilites (thermal, Ionospheric and the Czech system) as ground based or air based systems as seperate organisational units to specifically detect LO threats. Or will they be integrated in seperate units?
 
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