Super radar detecting US stealth plane

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webmaster

Troll Hunter
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Russia may have that radar but there is no confirmation or indiction that they would pass such tech on to China. Don't believe everything you "read" on other forums, unless its been confirmed by major defence outlets or has appeared in the news. Always ask the person who is making such dubious claims for a source, 9 out of 10 times they will not have any source but rely speculation and guess work.
 

jtcohen

New Member
This system is not a radar, it is like a big ear, it can pick up (more or less) vibrations on the air as an aircraft passed, this was used in the Balkans to detect and hand off the target data to an SA-7 that was fired in the general vicinity of the F-117 stealth fighter (don't know why they call it that). It is a very effective passive system when connected to sam bttys.
 

adsH

New Member
to people who think, Radars system such as these can pick up Com frequencies Stealth AC stealthy when they Are silent, they don't communicate conventionally.
the Anti stealth Techniques exploited by Victim entities are

Low-Frequency radar

Very High freeuncy radar

Carrier free radar

and our Bistatic radar

in a bistatic radar system the Receiver and transmitter are not collocated they are placed apart from each other, the idea behind stealth is to minimize the residual signals back scattered towards the radar. this is usually achieved by increasing reflection in other direction away from the source. the Bistatic Radar receiver can pick these signals up. if the radar receiver is not co-located in one location then the receiver can pick those transmitted signals calculate where the signals was affected. this system has drawbacks such as coordination, precise calibration and calculations are required. Time lag is common too, it usually can be used for limited coverage and can provide a coverage similar to a warning belt. You have to place the whole system in certain angles to be ready to detect a stealth Ac, and you have a one odd chance of detecting something. but tie them up in a sophisticated network of distributed systems then you may have a sufficient coverage. (not a trivial task)
 

jtcohen

New Member
IN the case of the F-117, it is not a fast aircraft to begin with, certainly US planners were baited into sending the 'stealth' into the area due to the concentration of SAMS, so it would not have been to hard to know which directon the bomber might come from.

Now the US might do a targeting run with JSTARS and get that reciever on the syntheric apiture radar. Listening devices area a poor mans way to get around capability gaps, but the Pentagon is on to that trick now, so I doubt it would work again. Then again the lisening devices could be kept on when used with conventional air search radars, when the target is picked up, the radar switched to standby then the target data could be handed off to the listener.
 

Awang se

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
i read once about a proposal of using an array of several single antenna. each antena wil be spaced from 500 meters to several Km from each others. eventually the whole array will take a length of up to 800km or maybe more. the system is passive. it will monitor an EM wave in the atmosphere such as TVs, Radios, Radars, and com system. it will detect any disturbance to the wave pattern cause by a movement of an object in the atmosphere such as the aircraft. i'm not clear how and i should remind u all that i'm not remember where i read such an article (there goes the source)
 

highsea

New Member
That describes a PCL system. They use "emitters of opportunity", such as cell towers, FM and TV broadcasts. The UK's "Celldar" and Lockheed's "Silent Sentry" are examples of PCL technology. You can google for more information.

One of the biggest obstacles with these systems is synchronizing the signal and receivers. Monostatic systems are synchronized by direct connection between the emitter and receiver, and obviously you can't do this with receivers that are widely spaced. There is a professor at the University of Washington that has developed a PCL system that uses GPS time signals for synchronization, and he has been able to get accuracy of ~50nm for aircraft in the Puget Sound area using an FM transmitter on Mt. Ranier and low-cost PC based receivers in Eastern Washington.

The technology is evolving slowly, but there are still some significant obstacles. The more receivers you use, the more complex the algorithms get, and they are not exactly simple to start with, since they use reflections that do not scatter off the target in a predictable direction. Bistatic PCL systems don't work when a target is on the baseline between the receiver and emitter, because the signal does not scatter at 180 degrees. Multistatic systems can work around this by offsetting the receivers, but the computational power to do this efectively is still out of reach for most countries, and the only known working examples are very localized (IIRC, Celldar only covers Heathrow Airport, and Silent Sentry covers Andrews AFB).

Russia and China are reported to be working on PCL systems also, but little is known about their progress. At some point in the future, they will become a threat, when mobile emitters are employed and the synchronization issues are resolved and the computational power needed becomes more affordable. Even so, searching is not targeting, and you still short wavelengths to target an AC or missile.

Incidentally, all US stealth AC are designed with bistatic as well as monostatic RCS in mind, and it's a known quantity, though obviously classified.
 

jtcohen

New Member
I guess in that case if you were making decisions for an air defense with limited resources than you could launch a weapon in the general direction of the elecronic disturbance, a weapon that could find its own target after being fired in a general direction, without an intial lock, would be best.

Any sugestions for the sharp end?
 

highsea

New Member
Well those sort of exist in the form of the SARH missile (which incidentally is probably the most common example of a bistatic radar system). But with very low RCS targets, the missile's own radar isn't powerful enough to get a lock until it's very close to the target.

I suppose for the sake of our discussion you would want something that can operate in a high ECM environment, and be as undetectable as possible, so maybe an inertially guided missile with jam-resistant mid-course updates (possibly a laser, but atmospheric conditions, clouds, etc. will degrade the datalink), and an autonomous IIR seeker for the terminal phase. I suppose you would integrate these launchers with the receivers, so each launcher could provide guidance for it's missiles, and the missiles need to be very inexpensive so they can be fired in massive salvos in hopes of getting lucky enough to get one close enough for it's seeker to spot the target.

The whole system has to be tied together so that multiple launchers can be cued together at a specific volume of airspace. You could build a large scale fiberoptic network for this, and that would solve the synchronization problems, but it would be very expensive. You would need redundant data paths and data processing centers so that the entire network was not dependent on a single processing center or data pathway. Maybe some kind of ELF/SLF radio communications, that travel through the earth (like submarines use) could be applied here? I imagine you would run into bandwidth problems, lol.

One of the problems with PCL is that the emitters are not optimized for the purpose. FM and TV transmitters typically broadcast a signal that is focused low to the horizon to maximize their range and power- TV and FM radio reception at 35,000-50,000 feet (where the stealth AC are operating) isn't that great. And cellphone towers don't have the power to saturate an airspace that high up either. And all of these types of transmitters are juicy targets for first day airstrikes with cruise missiles.

This brings us full circle to large, low-frequency area search systems as emitters, which can saturate large volumes of airspace, but are tempting targets and expensive to build. :)
 
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adsH

New Member
highsea said:
You would need redundant data paths and data processing centers so that the entire network was not dependent on a single processing center or data pathway. Maybe some kind of ELF/SLF radio communications, that travel through the earth (like submarines use) could be applied here? I imagine you would run into bandwidth problems, lol.
increased chatter on any network regardless of its design always causes problems specially Contention based Networks. there can be an alternative to using a infrastructure that you described. using distributed computing power and placing inexpensive COTS Processors on the SAM sites and linking each Site with multiple links say fiber optics (even higher grade Cat Ethernet cables, you can always use compression) ( complexity of connections should justifiable). and then allowing the SAM sites to work with given protocols, ie the closet activates and fires. you would have lesser control and less points of failures and less comm chatter on the network. you would have Node to node communication in a Web Mesh form. theres redundancy in this structure, the unused processors can be used if additional processing is required.

the reason you stated fibre optics was (i'm guessing here) Military applications require communication systems that are not susceptible to EM and other jamm interference. what i was trying to bring across here was that you can use simple cheaper COTS stuff and put together a sophisticated system. you can always use Extra shielded wiring. and of-course Fiber optics is the wiring of choice.
 

highsea

New Member
adsH said:
...there can be an alternative to using a infrastructure that you described. using distributed computing power and placing inexpensive COTS Processors on the SAM sites and linking each Site with multiple links say fiber optics (even higher grade Cat Ethernet cables, you can always use compression) ( complexity of connections should justifiable).
That's sort of what I was postulating when I was referred to redundant processing and data pathways, and having each launcher control it's own missiles. However, I think that the amount of processing needed for actual targeting computations in a multistatic system would overwhelm inexpensive systems. If that's true, I think separate data processing centers would still more affordable for the heavy computing. But they would still be have to be redundant themselves, and linked with redundant pathways. So each launcher could handle it's portion of the task (receiving and processing the signals, forwarding the data, receiving target data, and controlling the missiles), but the bulk of the computing would be done in one of several data centers using server clusters. The datacenters could be buried underground in hardened shelters, and geographically spaced, which would make them more difficult targets.

There are pros and cons to each method- the servers can be software clustered and still be physically separated, but in increases the cost of each launcher/processor system, as each system would need to powerful enough to operate more or less independently, since the system has to be able to adjust to the data it's receiving. Possibly the overall network would degrade more gracefully than if there are say 5 large datacenters instead of 100 launcher/processor systems. But our infrastructure is getting more complicated, lol.

Another possibility would be to have multiple emitters that encode a time stamp into the signal itself (kind of like LORAN). Then the SAM could just take a GPS position, and calculate the geometry based on the known location of the emitters. Instead of geographically separating the receivers, you separate the emitters and work the problem in reverse. You would need a chain of emitters, and each emitter would work on a separate frequency to prevent crosstalk. This would make the cabling between sites unnecessary, and your launchers could be moved around as needed. Each SAM would be then autonomous and totally passive.

Or maybe a combination of both techniques- nodes of 3 receivers and 3 emitters working as an independent cell. Lol, my brain's starting to hurt...

The guy I mentioned earlier from the UW (John Sahr) showed that it can be done, at least in principle. He used a PC with a standard digitizer card and a single VHF transmitter. I have it on acrobat format, I went back and reviewed it, I should make a couple corrections. Timing was via GPS signals, as I mentioned, accurate to ~100ns (15m in range) and ~.01 Hz in Doppler (1cm/sec in velocity). The transmitter was in the Puget Sound basin, not on Mt. Ranier, so his receiver and transmitter was separated by a good sized mountain range (The Cascades). He demonstrated quasi-real time imagery of the ionosphere out to a range of ~1000 km, and routinely detected aircraft out to ~100km.

His system was a simple bistatic system, so the processing power was relatively low in comparison. But it does show that a high performance PCL system can be developed with inexpensive components. I think his entire receiver station was under $15,000. Of course, when you start adding multiple emitters/receivers, the algorithms get extremely complex, and I question whether inexpensive computers can really handle it.
adsH said:
...the reason you stated fibre optics was (i'm guessing here) Military applications require communication systems that are not susceptible to EM and other jamm interference. what i was trying to bring across here was that you can use simple cheaper COTS stuff and put together a sophisticated system. you can always use Extra shielded wiring. and of-course Fiber optics is the wiring of choice.
I assume the system is operating in a high ECM environment, which is why I go with FO. Also, because we are talking about distributing receivers over a large geographic area, at some point you need to use FO anyway. It's no more expensive than copper these days, so it is the obvious choice.

It's an interesting problem, anyway, fun to think about.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
killbill2 said:
Highsea you are the best!!! You gotta tewll me where you find out this info im totally lost man.
Admin: Note the date of Highseas response. Please also pay attention to the forum rules about posting one liner responses. ie they are not acceptable especially when they don't contribute form and function to discussion.
 

PETER671BT

New Member
well IF this true that russia and china can detect stealth planes,there go 25 years of reseach and advantage down the drain.The west might as well go out and bye no stealth and save some money.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
well IF this true that russia and china can detect stealth planes,there go 25 years of reseach and advantage down the drain.The west might as well go out and bye no stealth and save some money.
There's a vast difference between detection and targetting.

If stealth is redundant, then it hasn't stopped those countries seeking to trivialize it in developing their own.

If anything stealth had accelerated in development - not declined.

there are two countries developing stealth (LO) aircraft out at woomera, there are another two in Oz working on stealth (LO) weapons.

At the last Stealth Systems conf in the UK there would have been some 15 countries (including the countries who profess to have mastered detection) with platforms under development.

Stealth is far from being redundant.
 

rickshaw

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Stealth always was, at best simply going to be another stage on the perpetual tussel between offensive and defensive technologies. Don't know why people get so hung up about the idea that Stealth can be defeated. If the users of Stealth aren't preparing for the day when it ceases to work then I suspect they should be shot for being incompetent. Its not going to last forever and people are very busy working to defeat it, I suspect.
 

dioditto

New Member
Ofcourse, there are vulnerability in even the best of the stealth fighters/bombers. The vulnerability is always built-in. You can't seriously expect there is no way to track these birds once they fly away, or scenerio like "Firefox" could very well play out.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Stealth always was, at best simply going to be another stage on the perpetual tussel between offensive and defensive technologies. Don't know why people get so hung up about the idea that Stealth can be defeated. If the users of Stealth aren't preparing for the day when it ceases to work then I suspect they should be shot for being incompetent. Its not going to last forever and people are very busy working to defeat it, I suspect.
The mantra used to be "you export systems that you know that you can defeat"
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Used to be? Do you imply that it is no longer the case anymore?? ;)
No - it was a "tongue in cheek comment". Systems are only exported by the host if they know how to counter them in case they fall into the wrong hands - or unless the tech is considered tactically redundant.

eg the Arrays recently sold to China for harbour protection were COTS and considered easy to counter.
 

Anatoly

New Member
I red about HAARP alike systems which are also operatin in nordic region and Russia as well. Are thos capable of detecting also Stealth planes?
 
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