Compare capabilities and data - LCA & JF-17

[ipfreak]

Simply put, the LCA and the Thunder are aircraft of the same class.Same capabilities, similar mission profiles,avionics profiles etc.Though I must say that the Thunder's design puts a lot of emphasis on maneauverability while the LCA's emphasis is on higher supersonic stability.

on the paper, LCA has higher requirements than jf-17. in reality, a lot of requirements were way beyond the capacity of indian industry. the project has been delayed oever, over, and over. on the contrast, paki side regonized its shortcomings and defined a very realistic goal. that helped graet deal. money was well spent. jf-17 defintely would help pakistand start own aviation industry.

lca project is a great endaavour for indian industrial complex. once it is finished, i have no doubt that it would lift indian industy into different level.

 

[SABRE]

Let me shock all the Indians as well as Pakistanis. There are 4-JF-17s that are quite unique from other JF-17s. They look a bit different in shape, specially its nosel & Wings. Its Face I ve herd is like F-18 & Wings like F-14 by that I mean they are moveable. The reason I ve herd is that they can be landed on career. An other Unique characteristic of them is that they can carry small scale NUKES!!!!!!

But its a Rumor....I havent seen their pics or found any ting on the net.
It is said that they would be disclosed in 2007. All 4 Jets r prototypes.

If its true than its a bad news for LCA Fans.

I ve also herd that JF-17 can easily be modified to carry nukes...some of the jets coming 2 Pak in 2006 might even have been modified.

An other fact I ve come across is that Both Pak & China r more interested in J-10 than JF-17.
On the other hand UAE & Belgium ave agreed to sell F-16s to Pak..they only need permission from USA. Also USA is tinking of giving Pak it 76 F-16s. Tis proves that Pak is still interested in other high quality Jets than JF-17. Also French have asked PAF to buy new MIR-2000+ than buying older equipment for MIR-111 cause sooner they 'll stop producing them (Both the Jet & its equipment). I dont know why Pak is not responding to France. They r willing to shift some of their Technology (Minor) for MIR Jets to Pak like they did for the sub-marines.
French r doing all this just for Small Misile Nosel switch that help missiles explode, that has great technology of them. Similar to that of China & N.Korea. These switches r so good that even USA criticises China for first producing tham & than N.Korea & France wants tham badly (Note: Pak does provide switchs 2 france but france does not want Pak to stop)
IF these misile switches r so good that I think the misiles for JF-17 might also be better than LCA.

But plz confirm the top Rumor I mentioned above...
I ll come back when ve more news...but mean while dont fight over JF-17 & LCA. LCA will come down to ground as soon as they take off, just like Indian Mig 21 & 29. Face it Indian jets dont fly long not even the passanger planes.
Actually Indian Jets dont fly a all during the wars. 49% of IAF Inventory was destroyed in 1965 war & 31% in 1971 by PAF. Not a single MiG-21 flew in 65 & 71. They were sitting targets at PathanKot (READ ON THE NET). Believe me when it comes to War PAF are hawks. They Grab (destory) & run (RTB) alsmost safely, even from the seas. So I think LCA is not only behind JF-17 on Tech level but also on Pilots mental level.
Meanwhile also c the PICS of LCA & JF-17. LCA looks like a trainer Jet while JF-17 looks like a samller version of F-16.

 

[adsH]

Let me shock all the Indians as well as Pakistanis. There are 4-JF-17s that are quite unique from other JF-17s. They look a bit different in shape, specially its nosel & Wings. Its Face I ve herd is like F-18 & Wings like F-14 by that I mean they are moveable. The reason I ve herd is that they can be landed on career. An other Unique characteristic of them is that they can carry small scale NUKES!!!!!!

But its a Rumor....I havent seen their pics or found any ting on the net.
It is said that they would be disclosed in 2007. All 4 Jets r prototypes.

If its true than its a bad news for LCA Fans.

I ve also herd that JF-17 can easily be modified to carry nukes...some of the jets coming 2 Pak in 2006 might even have been modified.

An other fact I ve come across is that Both Pak & China r more interested in J-10 than JF-17.
On the other hand UAE & Belgium ave agreed to sell F-16s to Pak..they only need permission from USA. Also USA is tinking of giving Pak it 76 F-16s. Tis proves that Pak is still interested in other high quality Jets than JF-17. Also French have asked PAF to buy new MIR-2000+ than buying older equipment for MIR-111 cause sooner they 'll stop producing them (Both the Jet & its equipment). I dont know why Pak is not responding to France. They r willing to shift some of their Technology (Minor) for MIR Jets to Pak like they did for the sub-marines.
French r doing all this just for Small Misile Nosel switch that help missiles explode, that has great technology of them. Similar to that of China & N.Korea. These switches r so good that even USA criticises China for first producing tham & than N.Korea & France wants tham badly (Note: Pak does provide switchs 2 france but france does not want Pak to stop)
IF these misile switches r so good that I think the misiles for JF-17 might also be better than LCA.

But plz confirm the top Rumor I mentioned above...
I ll come back when ve more news...but mean while dont fight over JF-17 & LCA. LCA will come down to ground as soon as they take off, just like Indian Mig 21 & 29. Face it Indian jets dont fly long not even the passanger planes.
Actually Indian Jets dont fly a all during the wars. 49% of IAF Inventory was destroyed in 1965 war & 31% in 1971 by PAF. Not a single MiG-21 flew in 65 & 71. They were sitting targets at PathanKot (READ ON THE NET). Believe me when it comes to War PAF are hawks. They Grab (destory) & run (RTB) alsmost safely, even from the seas. So I think LCA is not only behind JF-17 on Tech level but also on Pilots mental level.
Meanwhile also c the PICS of LCA & JF-17. LCA looks like a trainer Jet while JF-17 looks like a samller version of F-16.

WE can't accept your claims here you don't have any proof. I am sorry but i find some of your news abit out of the way for instance how Come UAE is willing to sell those F-16u block 60 which haven't even landed on there soil. I can accept pak getitng 76 F-16s block 15 MLU to Block 20 with block 50 standar similar to the ones that taiwan bought!! and could you provide a reference for the switches!!!

 

[SABRE]

Hey adsH man !!! I told u they r rumors, I dont want u people 2 believe it I just want u people to varify it, I want u people 2 find out some thin on this, is it true or false..so no rudeness for me plz..

About the switchs..yes..its long story but cause they might be used for JF-17 let me brief it a bit.
Couple of electronic companies (I'll not mention the name but if ur claver u ll guess them, after all how many world class electronic companies r their in PAK-this is to be on safety for those companies) in Pakistan are making switches for impact missiles (land to land). These switchs were 1st made by USSR for their balistic missiles, the one which could take off from Nuke.Sub-marines. The Tech for switches was passed over to India in 1970's,for being best friends with USSR (India I tink still uses tem), in 1960's they were given to China by USSR. In 1980's Chinese upgraded them to newer Tech (USSR lost interest in these switches in 80's & looked for newer one, India did not attempt to modify them as they waited for USSR to come up with some thing new-Note India still uses older USSR switchs for Agni & Trishul)
In 1985-86 Tech was modified Tech was transfered to N.Korea & Pak.(1989-USSR failed to come up with some thing better han the previous version & asked China to Proivde them with their modified Versions-I think China refused cause USSR-China relations got worse-this is why India does not have better ersions of these switchs but Russia after breakup did built some thing better than these switchs-I dont think India has them either)
In 1990's France after denouncing USA & Britin made electronic missile impact switch asked Pak to provide them with these Chinese switchs for their missiles witch Pak did in return for full military equipment support (Ground,air & sea-They transfered Agusta SM tech to Pak). USA does not like these switches cause they r USSR made & Chinese modified & r as good as theirs. Pak can no sell the Tech to France cause China doesnot want us to do so.
In 2000-1 China furter remodifed these switches from Land-Land to Land-Air, Air-Land & in 2000-3 Air-Air for thier J-10 & transfered Tech o Pak & N.Korea. Ghori & Shaheen hae been upgraded with switches, the latest re-test might ve been cause of this. France want all the forms of these switches from Pak.
Now cause these switchs r being used by China for J-10's Air-Land & Air-Air defence, Pak will also equip its JF-17's missiles equiped with these switchs.
These switchs r one of the Best. hey blow off in few micro seconds after the impact. They r attached to the nose of every missile.

I think it takes about 32 micr secs for these switches to creat sparks for the actual bomb & warhead to explode.
I ve for gotten the name of these switches cause its a Russian Name & its hard to remember. I'll look for the name again & tell u.

Any ways I tell u these switchs are definitly being used for Air-Air missiles for Both J-10 & JF-17.

An other quality/disquality of this switch is that it would explode if any other missile or built hits it. It will still blow off. So If Nuke carrying Ghuri is attacked inside enemy country it will still cary out its mission. IF JF-17 fires it & Enemy Jet counters the missile by firing on it when its near it, the missile will still destroy the enemy jet (as the switch still recieves its empact & thrust) & if Ghuri is destroyed in Pak air it would be a bad news & if its fired when JF-17 has just released it hat its a bad news for JF-17 (if JF-17 or F-16 is carrying a NUKE missiles & enemy destroy it b4 it releases he missile & our jet IS in enemy country than its a bad news for enemy as missile will still explode) .
But I think China had now upgraded it to remote control system, so if Pak has recieved that Tech than its a great news.

Try searching for MiyonGurinwich-impact-switch missile. I think thats what its call. If not than it might be a spelling error. But I think its some ting like that.

Sorry for the Big story adsH & plz varify the roumor I mentioned above.

 

[Indianguy]

Well SABER , you are telling all about Indian things destroyed but you are not saying what happen to PAF which was not even to fly even a single plane in the ending days of conflicy. In early when PAf strikes on Indian fields, obsiously they got few planes but when Indian hit them back they takes their flying capability. PLease see the history of wars before you made claims.

Moreover MIG-21 shoot down PAF Star fighters ,,, please see history and then say things and please put proof before you even claim that u r living in pluto and you are an :alian2

LCA will not be armed to carry Nukes and their is no plan , only Indian SU's and Mirage will

franch onready offerd and talk is underway for 150+ Mirage 2000-5 planes with india frm coupleas of years , so i don;t think they will provide similer things to PAK. You better check things

 

[adsH]

Well SABER , you are telling all about Indian things destroyed but you are not saying what happen to PAF which was not even to fly even a single plane in the ending days of conflicy. In early when PAf strikes on Indian fields, obsiously they got few planes but when Indian hit them back they takes their flying capability. PLease see the history of wars before you made claims.

Moreover MIG-21 shoot down PAF Star fighters ,,, please see history and then say things and please put proof before you even claim that u r living in pluto and you are an :alian2

LCA will not be armed to carry Nukes and their is no plan , only Indian SU's and Mirage will

franch onready offerd and talk is underway for 150+ Mirage 2000-5 planes with india frm coupleas of years , so i don;t think they will provide similer things to PAK. You better check things

Ok INdian Guy i was very skeptical bout the stuff Sabre said but the fact that INdian shot down PAF AC in the end game of 1971, ofcource they would shoot down barely functioning American AC there spares were restricted there bases were under attack PAF had no way of protecting those assets so they were left at the mercy of IAF and Revolting Bengali force on the ground!!! But IAF Only started shooting down PAF assets at the end of the war!!! I think it was a first in the IAF history to have shot so many PAF assets i think it was about 40+ (total since 1947 is about 50-56 i think) and while the PAF have shot more then 161 of the IAF assets (since 1947) the numbers say it all. i am not saying what sabre claims!! IAF has good fighters pilots very good to be exact but your forgetting your entire tiger squadron was sent over to the PAF side when the partition happened so that was and is the reason why PAF has TOP quality pilots(they follow a tradition-)and most of these piolts come from a long tradition of soldiers there entire family or even there ancestors were soldiers!!!! i think if we talk about quality it depends on individuals and there training but when people like sabre generalize on AF's then they go wrong!!!


About French PAK, FRANCE HAVE AN OLD RELATION INfact those IAF MIRRAGES WERE APPERENTLY negotiated by a Pakistani in France(arm dealer)!! the world does not behave like Rusia (being exclusive) the French have always said that Mirage 2005 MK2 were always there for PAF but PAF still deciding !! the french would sell anything to anyone!!!


Mirage 2005 are relay expensive i personally don't think INdia would get those!! i think they would upgrade there existing Mirage AC to 2005 spec and then just buy Mirage 2000 come onn mate i know India has a rich economy but i don't see how and why india would spend so much on these Mirage 2000 are exelent in what they do 2005 specs are just the Ice breaker. the tip of the dagger they would definately upgrade there exsisting 40 mi2000 to 2005 spec and buy those almost new Qatar MI2005 from france!!! they have Phalcon systems and suphisticated ground radars i don't think they need so many MI2005!!! I am only being realistic!!

 

[dabrownguy]

Simply put, the LCA and the Thunder are aircraft of the same class.Same capabilities, similar mission profiles,avionics profiles etc.Though I must say that the Thunder's design puts a lot of emphasis on maneauverability while the LCA's emphasis is on higher supersonic stability.

on the paper, LCA has higher requirements than jf-17. in reality, a lot of requirements were way beyond the capacity of indian industry. the project has been delayed oever, over, and over. on the contrast, paki side regonized its shortcomings and defined a very realistic goal. that helped graet deal. money was well spent. jf-17 defintely would help pakistand start own aviation industry.

lca project is a great endaavour for indian industrial complex. once it is finished, i have no doubt that it would lift indian industy into different level.

[Mod edit: No name calling.] the goals set by hal for the lca project were high but thats nothing forign countries wouldn't be able to help with. the fbw for lca was tested on the falcon xl! the freakin radar will get massive isreali help like most indian projects to save time and research. think about it.

 

[adsH]

[Mod edit: No name calling][ /color] the goals set by hal for the lca project were high but thats nothing forign countries wouldn't be able to help with. the fbw for lca was tested on the falcon xl!

interesting are you sure that happened i don't think the Indian have ever seen the Falncons insides not the cockpit but the internal systems i doubt that happened give us a credible source!!

I can balieve israel helping out but Americans letting Indians neer there top secret Falcon that was a technology demonstrator!!

 

[gf0012-aust]

Saber, there's at least 10 things technically wrong with what you've been told, rather than go through them all, it's probably better to accept that what you've been told is a little bit wrong.

When you get that high an error count even on a rumour - the odds are pretty high that it was an idiot who started the conversation with you in the first place.

There is so much wrong with what you've written, I am trying to work out whether you are joking with people in here.

 

[ipfreak]

Let me shock all the Indians as well as Pakistanis. There are 4-JF-17s that are quite unique from other JF-17s. They look a bit different in shape, specially its nosel & Wings. Its Face I ve herd is like F-18 & Wings like F-14 by that I mean they are moveable. The reason I ve herd is that they can be landed on career. An other Unique characteristic of them is that they can carry small scale NUKES!!!!!!

But its a Rumor...........................

man, you have vivid imagination. no it was not rumour, you are dreaming ...

 

[dabrownguy]

Simply put, the LCA and the Thunder are aircraft of the same class.Same capabilities, similar mission profiles,avionics profiles etc.Though I must say that the Thunder's design puts a lot of emphasis on maneauverability while the LCA's emphasis is on higher supersonic stability.

on the paper, LCA has higher requirements than jf-17. in reality, a lot of requirements were way beyond the capacity of indian industry. the project has been delayed oever, over, and over. on the contrast, paki side regonized its shortcomings and defined a very realistic goal. that helped graet deal. money was well spent. jf-17 defintely would help pakistand start own aviation industry.

lca project is a great endaavour for indian industrial complex. once it is finished, i have no doubt that it would lift indian industy into different level.

[Mod edit: No name calling.] the goals set by hal for the lca project were high but thats nothing forign countries wouldn't be able to help with. the fbw for lca was tested on the falcon xl! the freakin radar will get massive isreali help like most indian projects to save time and research. think about it.

hmm they were willing to give IAF tot of falcons.

 

[adsH]

hmm they were willing to give IAF tot of falcons.

TOT in The US's dictionary does not mean that the entire this is made in that country Alot of the more sesative Avionics and Radars and all the electronics sub systems are desinged in the US the shell is made in the country like Turkey, they have to buy licences for there AF to even make them and then they need all the electronic sub system to make a complete falcon!! the US Tech is always kept in secrecy they protect any item that they make with thousands of agreements you can't sell any thing american to any one unless the US aproves it!! its hardly worth considering for india whihc can now build teh Complete SU-30 Bar Engines (which should soon be built there, ihope)

 

[mysterious]

Good that you pointed that out adsh 'cuz some people here actually believe that the US is stupid enough to let 'everything' be transferred to another country under the pretext of ToT. :smokingc:

 

[gf0012-aust]

under the pretext of ToT

People only believe that if they misunderstand how the process actually works. Nobody in the military or Government would be confused at all.

All countries who have transfer of technology agreements in place make it very clear as to what is being transferred.

The only countries that transfer a technology in "toto" are because they already have counters to that system, or the technology is deemed "safe"

ToT arrangements with the French, Germans, Swedes. Italians, Russiuns are just as restricted.

All technology owners "hold back" - otherwise they would leave themselves vulnerable. The Russians have a term for it which fails me at the moment - but the inference is that anything of export even to a friendly country is detuned to a certain degree.

 

[SABRE]

Yaa I got a miss interpreted info. China is currently under way of developing a one man carrier flyer similar to F-14's functions but smaller, they carrying nukes is some ting I still dnt know, any ways the Jet is no way closer to JF-17 but it doesnt matter, if Navy needs them they would most probably get them but then we need a carrier.

And yes ! Indianguy talking about History, Go read John Frikkers' "Battle For Pakistan". Clarely indicated PAF Superiority over IAF in 1965 & in second Part PAF extraordinary Defence in West Pakistan against IAF.
IAF it self called PAF victorious in 1965, hec IAF didnt even fly a single plain to defened it self at Patan Kot...ur own pilots say tat PAF is moraly ahead of them. About ACs being destroyed in 1971, if IAF had not done that PAF would have. They were out dated. Thanks to IAF for saving our money.
Any ways IAF was succesful in downing PAF Jets only in East Pakistan not the West. GO READ TE HISTORY or come visit PAF Museum & see IAF Jets Carnage it self.
We produce brave men like Rashid Minhas. DO U?

 

[adsH]

Yaa I got a miss interpreted info. China is currently under way of developing a one man carrier flyer similar to F-14's functions but smaller, they carrying nukes is some ting I still dnt know, any ways the Jet is no way closer to JF-17 but it doesnt matter, if Navy needs them they would most probably get them but then we need a carrier.

And yes ! Indianguy talking about History, Go read John Frikkers' "Battle For Pakistan". Clarely indicated PAF Superiority over IAF in 1965 & in second Part PAF extraordinary Defence in West Pakistan against IAF.
IAF it self called PAF victorious in 1965, hec IAF didnt even fly a single plain to defened it self at Patan Kot...ur own pilots say tat PAF is moraly ahead of them. About ACs being destroyed in 1971, if IAF had not done that PAF would have. They were out dated. Thanks to IAF for saving our money.
Any ways IAF was succesful in downing PAF Jets only in East Pakistan not the West. GO READ TE HISTORY or come visit PAF Museum & see IAF Jets Carnage it self.
We produce brave men like Rashid Minhas. DO U?

Sabre calm down mate every country has there bravest put on the spot light ! but lets take things more logically as we get round to them at the moment lets stick to teh point LCA vs JF-17

 

[Red aRRow]

:cop :cop Ok no more discussion about Pakistan and India's past wars. This topic is Compare capabilities and data - LCA & JF-17, so keep it that way. :cop :cop

 

[Indianguy]

Yaa I got a miss interpreted info. China is currently under way of developing a one man carrier flyer similar to F-14's functions but smaller, they carrying nukes is some ting I still dnt know, any ways the Jet is no way closer to JF-17 but it doesnt matter, if Navy needs them they would most probably get them but then we need a carrier.

And yes ! Indianguy talking about History, Go read John Frikkers' "Battle For Pakistan". Clarely indicated PAF Superiority over IAF in 1965 & in second Part PAF extraordinary Defence in West Pakistan against IAF.
IAF it self called PAF victorious in 1965, hec IAF didnt even fly a single plain to defened it self at Patan Kot...ur own pilots say tat PAF is moraly ahead of them. About ACs being destroyed in 1971, if IAF had not done that PAF would have. They were out dated. Thanks to IAF for saving our money.
Any ways IAF was succesful in downing PAF Jets only in East Pakistan not the West. GO READ TE HISTORY or come visit PAF Museum & see IAF Jets Carnage it self.
We produce brave men like Rashid Minhas. DO U?

Yea yea how can i forget the battle at LOngawala when 4 Indian FC planes striking Pak Tanks from above and PAK and destroyed 60% of thanks , while Pak Tanks commanders asking for PAF Helf and PAF was no where near


Last May (1997), an Indian Force (IAF) Mikoyan MiG-25RB Foxbat-B reconnaissance aircraft created a furore when the pilot flew faster than Mach 2 over Pakistani territory following a reconnaissance mission into Pakistan airspace. The Foxbat broke the sound barrier while flying at an altitude of around 65,000 feet, otherwise the mission would have remained covert, at least to the general public. The Pakistan Government considered the breaking of the sound barrier as deliberate: to make the point that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has no aircraft in its inventory which can come close to the cruising height of the MiG-25 (up to 74,000 feet).

However, from one of PAF's Forward Operating Bases, radar traced the intruder and the F-16As scrambled. Sources in the PAF said that there was no need to intercept a plane flying at the altitude of 65,000 feet as the F-16 can reach an operating ceiling of 55,000 feet.

India denied the incident but Pakistan's Foreign Minister, Gohar Ayub Khan, believed that the Foxbat photographed strategic installations near the Capital, Islamabad. Interestingly, the two countries signed a 'Prevention of Air Space Violations' agreement in April 1991, which recognized that PAF and IAF aircraft operate near each other's airspace. The agreement permitted overflights and landings by military aircraft, but certainly not airborne reconnaissance.

Or you are thiing about this? lets see what PAF has to say on this ?

 

[Soldier]

Come on guys, Grow up and lets debate on the topic instead of saying who is better.

 

[adsH]

Yaa I got a miss interpreted info. China is currently under way of developing a one man carrier flyer similar to F-14's functions but smaller, they carrying nukes is some ting I still dnt know, any ways the Jet is no way closer to JF-17 but it doesnt matter, if Navy needs them they would most probably get them but then we need a carrier.

And yes ! Indianguy talking about History, Go read John Frikkers' "Battle For Pakistan". Clarely indicated PAF Superiority over IAF in 1965 & in second Part PAF extraordinary Defence in West Pakistan against IAF.
IAF it self called PAF victorious in 1965, hec IAF didnt even fly a single plain to defened it self at Patan Kot...ur own pilots say tat PAF is moraly ahead of them. About ACs being destroyed in 1971, if IAF had not done that PAF would have. They were out dated. Thanks to IAF for saving our money.
Any ways IAF was succesful in downing PAF Jets only in East Pakistan not the West. GO READ TE HISTORY or come visit PAF Museum & see IAF Jets Carnage it self.
We produce brave men like Rashid Minhas. DO U?

Yea yea how can i forget the battle at LOngawala when 4 Indian FC planes striking Pak Tanks from above and PAK and destroyed 60% of thanks , while Pak Tanks commanders asking for PAF Helf and PAF was no where near


Last May (1997), an Indian Force (IAF) Mikoyan MiG-25RB Foxbat-B reconnaissance aircraft created a furore when the pilot flew faster than Mach 2 over Pakistani territory following a reconnaissance mission into Pakistan airspace. The Foxbat broke the sound barrier while flying at an altitude of around 65,000 feet, otherwise the mission would have remained covert, at least to the general public. The Pakistan Government considered the breaking of the sound barrier as deliberate: to make the point that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has no aircraft in its inventory which can come close to the cruising height of the MiG-25 (up to 74,000 feet).

However, from one of PAF's Forward Operating Bases, radar traced the intruder and the F-16As scrambled. Sources in the PAF said that there was no need to intercept a plane flying at the altitude of 65,000 feet as the F-16 can reach an operating ceiling of 55,000 feet.

India denied the incident but Pakistan's Foreign Minister, Gohar Ayub Khan, believed that the Foxbat photographed strategic installations near the Capital, Islamabad. Interestingly, the two countries signed a 'Prevention of Air Space Violations' agreement in April 1991, which recognized that PAF and IAF aircraft operate near each other's airspace. The agreement permitted overflights and landings by military aircraft, but certainly not airborne reconnaissance.

Or you are thiing about this? lets see what PAF has to say on this ?

SOME one has to put a Stop on this Bull****
Sabre stop provokeing and INdina Guy no use replying !!!
First off al i have to answer something INdian Guy Mach 2.0 mean twice the spead of sound so breaking the sound barieer at 2.0 mach at 65000 feet is not a marvel it is expected as the air is alot thinnner! And i doubt any of the Ac can effectively function at 74000 feet (I am not aware is the USAF U-2 operates at that Altitude)!! 65000 feet is the Ceiling for Concord i think!! some on confirm this Plaese Sabre don't provoke people and try and Get all your facts rite before you speak out and INdian Guy would appriciate it if you restrain too!!