6th Generation Fighters Projects

Dasault claim they have tech capabilities to lead partnership, thus the next partnetship must be lead by Dasault. This confirmed France want any potential partner follow Dasault lead as Junior Partner. Sweeden SAAB and UAE being consider both on tech (former) and financial (later) partners.

Basically it will developed Rafale 2.0 in my opinion. 5.5 (or 6.0) gen Rafale. 4.5 move to 5.5

Some more discussion and speculation about the F-47 from TWZ. Still lots of mystery however and until good quality picture and/or video emerges, it is a waiting game .

Why Does The F-47's Design Look So Different Than What Many Expected?

He doesn't give any useful information, but here we have a mock-up of the GCAP/Tempest in close up.

Sandhi Yudha said:

He doesn't give any useful information, but here we have a mock-up of the GCAP/Tempest in close up.

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Not much point in sharing real design and performance features. BS to confuse the completion is much better.

Sandhi Yudha said:

He doesn't give any useful information, but here we have a mock-up of the GCAP/Tempest in close up.

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Interesting but the mock-up is 99% bulls**t.
According to the parliamentary hearing of Leonardo/BAE and to the documentation sent by the consortium, the GCAP-prototype is now expected to be aroung 20 meters in length, with the production plane being even bigger.
Weapons bay will be at least double the volume of those of the F-35. Autonomy will allow transatlantic travel with only one a-a refueling. (in the documents they say no-refueling at all needed for flying over the atlantic ocean, but i dont think it's realistic).
This will make it the largest combat plane built by Leonardo/BAE since the Nimrod MRA4.
It's basically an F-111 kind of plane...

The Buccaneer crossed the Atlantic unrefuelled. Only once AFAIK, & the shortest route, taking advantage of the prevailing west-east wind (Newfoundland to Scotland), but still . . .

Sandhi Yudha said:

He doesn't give any useful information, but here we have a mock-up of the GCAP/Tempest in close up.

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These 6th gen fighters are huge. GCAP at around 20metres long and I believe the F-47 will come in at 45metres. I can't imagine what the price tags on these things will be.

45 metres is the length of a B-1B bomber, surely F-47 is not going to be that big.

As for crossing the Atlantic, even small single engine GA aircraft can do it by hopping from Scotland-Iceland-Greenland-Newfoundland.

The direct route without refueling would be very impressive if it can do it at a decent pace.

hauritz said:

These 6th gen fighters are huge. GCAP at around 20metres long and I believe the F-47 will come in at 45metres. I can't imagine what the price tags on these things will be.

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Thats…. Huge. Even the most generous projections from early NGAD didn’t go that big. That size would basically have resulted in cancellation of F47/NGAD for an FB21. I know there is a lot of talk of long ranges being a factor for NGAD but The need to cross tha pacific without refueling would basically result in a bomber. The larger the aircraft the harder it is to operate in terms of air bases and rotations with penalties on performance to boot. Then you have the cost and sortie rates. The assumption of a huge NGAD was based on being forced to operate at extreme long ranges but comes with a huge maintenance and crew penalty. Making a B1 sized Fighter just isn’t realistic. Most reports favor now an objective of 1,000 NM combat range. Aircraft half the size you state with older engines and aerodynamics like the F111 were capable of that.

StevoJH said:

45 metres is the length of a B-1B bomber, surely F-47 is not going to be that big.

As for crossing the Atlantic, even small single engine GA aircraft can do it by hopping from Scotland-Iceland-Greenland-Newfoundland.

The direct route without refueling would be very impressive if it can do it at a decent pace.

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Pretty sure F47 won’t be anywhere near that big. NGAD went through a major revision a number of years ago and what seems to be implied is that the F47 is probably 20meters. Early on they seemed to be moving towards a large NGAD at about 25m now they seem to be pushing closer to the current norm. Air to air refueling, CCAs, Distributed basing makes up for loss of range. Though it’s likely that F47 will be pushed for a considerable longer combat range but new engines seem to be coming to assist in that.

WRT 6th gen range, a 1000 nm range would be very useful for the F/A XX.

hauritz said:

These 6th gen fighters are huge. GCAP at around 20metres long and I believe the F-47 will come in at 45metres. I can't imagine what the price tags on these things will be.

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My mistake 25 metres.

Singapore is looking at possibly getting involved in GCAP.

Singapore in early talks on possible involvement in GCAP programme.

Singapore has begun early discussions on possible involvement in the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP), Janes has been informed by a source close to the matter.

Source

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JudgeKing said:

Singapore is looking at possibly getting involved in GCAP.

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All these interested countries should get ready to place orders rather than hope for industrial involvement. If they wait too long they'll likely find themselves at the back of a long queue.

A TWZ article about NGAP suggesting this new engine won't be available until 2030, two years after the first F-47 is ready so the article continues with possible alternative engines for the F-47. Any alternative would involve design changes assuming the F-47 was designed for use with the NGAP. No idea how expensive adapting an existing engine would be. Maybe the solution is wait 2 years, sort of like the F135 ECU for the F-35.

Will The F-47 Have To Fly Initially With Inferior Engines?

John Fedup said:

A TWZ article about NGAP suggesting this new engine won't be available until 2030, two years after the first F-47 is ready so the article continues with possible alternative engines for the F-47. Any alternative would involve design changes assuming the F-47 was designed for use with the NGAP. No idea how expensive adapting an existing engine would be. Maybe the solution is wait 2 years, sort of like the F135 ECU for the F-35.

Will The F-47 Have To Fly Initially With Inferior Engines?

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I would imagine that they would do it via different blocks. It is not uncommon.

The F-16 had different engine options over the lifetime, from the proposed export model powered by the J79 to P&W F100 / 101, and GE F110.

Video of the second KAAN prototype taxi test. P1 is reportedly a more production representive prototype, closer to a LRIP model and appears to be more refined. Their 2028 timeline still seems aggressive but if it slips, they are not far off either.

A 2029, or 2030 in-service date seems more realistic. This would give them 4 to 5 years of extensive flight testing as well as pre-production industrial prep to complete.

Looks like they have identified FCAS. It may explain why there is momentum to move the new114 Rafale deal forward and why India again rejected Russia's unsolicited SU-57E offer. Of course, it is still early days and many things can go sideways, given the history of Indian defense deals (Rafale being the most apt example, since they are basically repeating the MRCA program)

At a broader strategic level, losing the India's dependency on Russia planes would have significant impact going forward (source of revenue to fund future R&D). Even the Super Sukhoi program is largely an indigenous effort.

“The Ministry of Defence has initiated efforts in a concerted manner to co-join the 6th Generation Fighter Aircraft Development Programme viz. Future Combat Air System (FCAS) spearheaded by the French Government,” the defence ministry said in its report to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence.

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Twentieth Report (18th Lok Sabha) of the Standing Committee on Defence (2024-25) on ‘Demands for Grants of the Ministry of Defence for the year 2026-27' on the subject ‘Army, Air Force, Navy, Joint Staff, Ex-Servicemen Contributory Health Scheme and Director General of Armed Forces Medical Services (Demand Nos. 20 and 21)’.

The specific report can be found online h(ttps://elibrary.sansad.in/server/api/core/bitstreams/70cd17c7-bb2b-4fd2-aef6-3bbf401f5f06/view) and on page 133

Planning for development of Sixth-Generation(6G) aircrafts
15. The Committee have been informed that two consortia are
working on the sixth-generation aircraft. One is a consortium of
the UK, Italy, and Japan and the another is a consortium of
France and Germany and both are developing aircraft. The
Committee have also been informed that Air Force will try to join
forces with one of the consortia and begin considering a sixth-
generation fighter right away with a view to ensure that they do
not lag behind in achieving the target for advanced aircraft. The
Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) has been developed
the design and discussions for its making are currently
underway.

The Committee understand that in view of technical
advancement of fighter aircrafts globally and to meet the present
security scenario, technical upgradation of aircrafts is required
on top priority for enhancement of its combat capability. The
Committee recommend the Ministry to chalk out a trajectory in
this regard and step forward the planning process for
development and acquisition of Sixth-Generation (6G) Aircrafts
which would eventually enhance India’s air domain capabilities
in today’s highly air-centric modern warfare. The progress made
in this regard may kindly be intimated to the Committee at the
time of furnishing the Action Taken Notes.

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