Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro

In light of the recent Coalition announcement of a 4th squadron of F-35’s. If the Tempest was a potential replacement, more F-35’s seem like a waste of $$$ at this point in time.

The comments about range and payload are very interesting for Australia. Maybe this could be our next gen fighter as opposed to a USA solution? Has anyone ever seen any interest expressed from Australia in this program?
That was my thoughts when I heard the suggestion last year.

Unless they are an addition, i.e. an extra sqn to be stood up supporting the current Lightning and Rhino fleets, and entering service in the next couple of years, I can't see the point.

Better waiting for a Rhino replacement.

There has also been some media speculation in SEA about Australia acquiring F-15X.

Somebody let the bright idea fairies out I think
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member

In light of the recent Coalition announcement of a 4th squadron of F-35’s. If the Tempest was a potential replacement, more F-35’s seem like a waste of $$$ at this point in time.

The comments about range and payload are very interesting for Australia. Maybe this could be our next gen fighter as opposed to a USA solution? Has anyone ever seen any interest expressed from Australia in this program?
The US might not really have a solution. Anything 4th gen won't cut it into the 2030s and beyond. B-21 are too expensive, F-35s lack range and payload and the F-47 is an F-22 replacement. I don't know what the USN is planning but it will probably not have the range we require.

On paper I admit GCAP is very tempting and the timing might be right for a Rhino/Growler replacement.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The US might not really have a solution. Anything 4th gen won't cut it into the 2030s and beyond. B-21 are too expensive, F-35s lack range and payload and the F-47 is an F-22 replacement. I don't know what the USN is planning but it will probably not have the range we require.

On paper I admit GCAP is very tempting and the timing might be right for a Rhino/Growler replacement.
There was a comment recently that the USN 6th Gen range would only be 25% greater than a F-35C so the MQ-25 refueling UAV will be critical.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
A greater range and twice the payload of the f-35 worth a consideration for the R.A.A.F as a complement to present aircraft abilities, likely more expensive as a platform than the f-35 because of fewer numbers , more versatility for the R.A.A.F than the B-21or even additional f-35,s ,this is of course speculation
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Japan wants range because, despite having a relatively small land area, its islands are strung out over a very long distance. Its southernmost inhabited island is at 24 degrees N, & the northernmost point of Hokkaido is at 45° 32' north. That's about 2400 km north-south. Its southernmost inhabited island is 400 km further south than the southernmost point of the Canaries, or about the same as Aswan, & the northern tip is about the same latitude as Lyon. In North American terms, that's roughly from Montreal to over the southern horizon from Key West.

Italy I'm not so sure about.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
UK and Italy also want range. UK has interests all over the world and only two carriers, with limited sortie rates.
Italy has lots of interest around the mediterranean through to North Africa.

So this is highly likely to be focused on combat over air/sea gaps, with maritime capabilities, not just air to air combat.

While tankers are helpful, they are vulnerable, particularly if the opposition has extreme range fighters, that can fly out from land bases, out to where you are refuelling your short range aircraft. Im not sure the USN model fits as well for non-USN countries. MQ25 isn't really designed for small carriers and to be operated by mid sized nations.

All three nations operate carriers, so this is likely to augment carrier capability, but projecting power from land. Hence long range, with large payload, to load up with long range heavy weapons. So this kinda niche doesn't really have a comparable version in the US any more, its kinda how Australia operated the F-111.

Japan/pacific has always had a huge priority on range, while often euro focused plane prefered short range. UK would be able to keep threats very long way away, and make long range strikes. Italy projecting power all over the mediterranean.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Is there a need for a long range interceptor capable of intercepting bombers before they come within missile range?
Is there even a real, viable engineering possibility of designing such an interceptor? IMO I think no.

One needs to remember that long-ranged, standoff munitions have been in service with several nations for decades now. One old example being the Kh-55 with some versions having a range of some ~3,000 km. How realistic would it be to have an interceptor combat radius requirement of even coming close to 3,000 km?
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Is there even a real, viable engineering possibility of designing such an interceptor? IMO I think no.

One needs to remember that long-ranged, standoff munitions have been in service with several nations for decades now. One old example being the Kh-55 with some versions having a range of some ~3,000 km. How realistic would it be to have an interceptor combat radius requirement of even coming close to 3,000 km?
There is also the *slight* issue of detecting the hostile platform with enough warning time that your interceptor could get that far out even if they had the range.

And you cannot have aircraft loitering at range because.....what if the enemy comes from a different vector?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Would the Jindalee operational radar network be able to supply such information
I'm not sure if Australia's military satellites have the ability to monitor aircraft without transceivers on
As I understand it, JORN can provide a 'tripwire' detection capability at very long ranges, sometimes exceeding 3,000 km. In that regards, I suspect that JORN could be used to detect 'something' that far away, but not sure that it would be able to determine what that something was. Of course if the 'something' then separated into two different somethings, one still being the aircraft and the other being the now inbound LACM then I suspect JORN could detect that, but that would be after launch.

JORN I believe is used to provide improved SA across much of the approaches to Australia to detect/flag contacts for further investigation by other assets whilst an E-7 Wedgetail might be used to then actually ID what that 'something' was from several hundred kms away

Now some further food for thought. If it was decided that the RAAF needed to be able to intercept potential hostiles whilst they are still more than 3,000 km away from Australia, that would likely take a RAAF fighter some ~three hours to arrive at the intercept point assuming one was already aloft. I made the assumption that the intercepting aircraft would fly a high subsonic speed of ~.085 Mach because the fuel consumption would go up significantly at higher speeds and especially if using afterburners. Now if it would take some three hours for a RAAF fighter to get on station to intercept, that also means the target aircraft would be some three hours away from reaching the intercept point at the time the RAAF fighter would need to depart. Again assuming a high subsonic approach for more fuel efficient travel given the times and distances involved, then the target aircraft might be some 6,000 km away when Australia would need to make the decision and order an interceptor to depart.

I do not think Australia, even with JORN, has the sort of sensor footprint needed for detection and identification of targets at these ranges.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
I mentioned satellites but I do not know the capability of the A.D.F satellites ,certainly Chinese satellites may have an ability of detection of infrared signatures of stealth aircraft ,tracking a heat signature against a cold ocean via large network of satellites ,this is of course very speculative and I am not qualified
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I mentioned satellites but I do not know the capability of the A.D.F satellites ,certainly Chinese satellites may have an ability of detection of infrared signatures of stealth aircraft ,tracking a heat signature against a cold ocean via large network of satellites ,this is of course very speculative and I am not qualified
A few points. Generally the term used is LO for Low Observable, not stealth. Unfortunately stealth is something which has been getting used as a buzzword for some time, with some even equating it to specific technologies. I would recommend for those who have not read it, or if it has been some time, re-read A brief history of LO posted on DT.

One of the reasons why this distinction is important is that, as part of managing the LO properties of an aircraft, this includes managing the infrared or heat signature. This is not just finding ways to reduce the heat signature of a jet engine, but also reducing/distributing the heat generated by friction as air moves across an aircraft's skin as well as other things which could contribute to the heat emitted by an aircraft. Now all of this combined together can firstly make it more difficult to detect the heat signature of an LO object, identify the source of a heat signature if/when detected, and then track a given signature.

Now one of the problems with attempting to provide detection capabilities over a very large area is that there could many potential contacts detected, which in turn could overwhelm the ability of a system or even a network's ability to provide useful information. Take such a hypothetical system monitoring the Pacific Ocean for instance. The heat exhaust from every vessel transiting the Pacific could trigger the system/network as a potential contact, but how much such detections would happen at any given moment? I do not know how many ships or powered boats are normally in the Pacific at any given moment but I would expect the number would be in the thousands. The same would also apply to almost all aerospace aircraft, and this too would likely number at least into the hundreds if not thousands at any given moment. Trying to sort of thousands of active contacts could prove overwhelming when trying to determine which contacts are relevant.

Similarly, what actual level of information do this systems really provide? Could it provide 2D information, or 3D? For satellite systems (and those doing atmospheric bounce) it can make a difference because that could help determine if a detected contact was an aircraft or a surface vessel, or even possibly something else entirely.

Now I could not read the entire article on the IRST but with what I have read, I am somewhat dubious about either the claims or conclusions, not the least of which is because it starts by describing a "heat-sinking radar" when radar uses RF not IR. Further, it does go on to describe elements of an IRST including use of a laser emitter to gather more information, but these systems are really not designed or capable of engaging in volume air searches. Further, the reference distance of ~285 km to detect a civilian aircraft does not mean much, unless such a system were to be used to track/engage military support/transport aircraft which might have comparable signatures. At what range could the system described in the article actually detect an inbound strike aircraft, especially a LO one, or how about inbound standoff ordnance?

So far the articles seem to indicate that China is increasing their respective capabilities, but despite the tone in the articles, nothing strikes me as being particularly different or game-changing.
 
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