USAF News and Discussion

ngatimozart said:

The USAF is thinking of retiring its F-15C and F-15D fleets, replacing them with F-16s. If they decide to go down this path, the end of the next decade is thought to be the time.

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Seems to be a strange move to replace an upgraded 1970's fighter design with another (more) upgraded 1970's fighter design. Especially when the F-16 itself is to be replaced by the F-35.

Only reason I could think of for doing it would be a temporary measure if they have spare F-16's and the F-15's are running out of effective life until they can be replaced by F-35's as well.

StevoJH said:

Seems to be a strange move to replace an upgraded 1970's fighter design with another (more) upgraded 1970's fighter design. Especially when the F-16 itself is to be replaced by the F-35.

Only reason I could think of for doing it would be a temporary measure if they have spare F-16's and the F-15's are running out of effective life until they can be replaced by F-35's as well.

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It might also be that while the F-15's still have effective service life, it could also have started to become expensive service life. The last F-15C/D models were built in 1985 IIRC, so that the existing air superiority version of the F-15 are between 33 and 39 years old. At a certain point, so many resources would need to be directed to keep these aircraft airworthy and in sufficient quantities to ensure mission availability, that it can start to be worthwhile to consider replacing them either with brand new aircraft, or reallocating similar aircraft to cover the needed missions/roles.

It might very well be cheaper to find a number of Block 20/30/40 or later F-16's with low flight hours on the airframe stored in AMARC, have them refurbished and upgraded to Block 50/60/70 standard, then operate them for a decade or two, than it would be to SLEP and maintain F-15C's to get both more flight hours out of the airframe and update the avionics and operate them over the same period of time.

Looks like the F-15C/D/E fleets have been undergoing a modernization program covering EW, AESA radar, Advanced Core Processor, etc. which will allow the aircraft to remain relevant for the next couple of decades.


The Air Force is upgrading the F-15 to keep its edge on Chinese fighter jets

Yes. A lot of money has been spent in the last few years on upgrades & life extensions of those F-15C/Ds in good enough condition. This would be a strange time to throw all that away. What do you do with a large number of expensive AESA radars that don't fit in F-16s, for example?

I've read stories from last year suggesting that mooted further life extensions may not be carried out, but that's ten years away. The talk was of centre fuselage barrel replacement being needed to keep them flying into the 2030s, & that & the other work needed not being cost-effective.

Looks like spending $1M for longeron replacement to extend service life into the 2030s is a no-brainer. However spending $30M to cover wings, landing gear and fuselage refits to extend service to the 2040s may be prohibtive.


Longeron upgrade would keep F-15Cs flying

Longeron upgrade would keep F-15Cs flying

The release of president Donald Trump’s fiscal year 2018 budget, which continues millions of dollars in funding for ongoing upgrades to the Boeing F-15C – as well as a new service life-extension programme (SLEP) for the aircraft’s longerons – has allowed the US Air Force to officially quash rumours of a near-term retirement for the fighter.

“The longeron SLEP entails replacing 14 primary tension members in the structure of the forward fuselage and is critical to the safety of flight of these aircraft,” the USAF says in budget documents. “There are other structural issues with the F-15Cs besides the longerons, and full-scale fatigue testing is ongoing to assess these matters.”

Boeing is conducting fatigue testing with a full-scale F-15C and F-15E article, Steve Parker, vice-president of F-15 programmes at Boeing, told reporters in St. Louis, Missouri last week. The aircraft have gone through 30,000h of testing, he says. By replacing the longerons on the fighter – an endeavor that would cost about $1 million per aircraft – Boeing could push the F-15C's service life into the 2030s.

An earlier USAF analysis examined updating the F-15C’s fuselage, wings and landing gear, which could stretch the aircraft’s life into the 2040s – but would cost $30 million per airframe, Parker says.

The F-16 is at least multi-role which enables it to deploy on more assignments than the F-15c. With the current climate that is much more useful.

the concerned said:

The F-16 is at least multi-role which enables it to deploy on more assignments than the F-15c. With the current climate that is much more useful.

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Each platform has their strengths and weaknesses.

It is a mistake to base the ongoing effectiveness of the F-15C on the fact that the USAF haven’t achieved an air to air kill since 1999.

It seems either way they go about it both platforms will need a lot of money spent on them to keep them viable. In that case would another option be to replace the F-15'c with new F-15e's

Sadly what is needed is what got canceled.

Hard to say what the best way forward is, rebuilding is expensive with limits, new F-15Es are very expensive, and the USAF wouldn’t likely accept SHs thus leaving F-16s as the least expensive alternative.

the concerned said:

It seems either way they go about it both platforms will need a lot of money spent on them to keep them viable. In that case would another option be to replace the F-15'c with new F-15e's

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The USAF has a shortage of air-superiority fighters. As discussed in your link to keep the F-15C going into the 2030’s will only cost $1m. Seems like a no-brainer to me especially given they are still highly lethal with AESA, AIM120D and 9X. EPAWWS will address their survivability issues.

Much cheaper than new build Vipers or Mud Hen.

south said:

The USAF has a shortage of air-superiority fighters. As discussed in your link to keep the F-15C going into the 2030’s will only cost $1m. Seems like a no-brainer to me especially given they are still highly lethal with AESA, AIM120D and 9X. EPAWWS will address their survivability issues.

Much cheaper than new build Vipers or Mud Hen.

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Somewhat misses the point, as cost comparisons usually do.

The $1M figure is for longeron replacement on one aircraft. It doesn't account for operating and support costs over the period until they are finally retired, which may or may not be higher than using F-16s. I'm also not sure that the proposal to use F-16s as replacements was for new build airframes. You need to know whether the cost of reactivating preserved F-16 aircraft and upgrading whatever systems are required AND operating them until the F-15s would have been retired is less than $1M per F-15 plus updates AND operating costs. You might also consider the benefits of reducing the number of disparate training and support streams.

oldsig

Another F-22 mishap.

Air Force Reports Second Mishap in 8 Days for Alaska-Based F-22s

oldsig127 said:

Somewhat misses the point, as cost comparisons usually do.

The $1M figure is for longeron replacement on one aircraft. It doesn't account for operating and support costs over the period until they are finally retired, which may or may not be higher than using F-16s. I'm also not sure that the proposal to use F-16s as replacements was for new build airframes. You need to know whether the cost of reactivating preserved F-16 aircraft and upgrading whatever systems are required AND operating them until the F-15s would have been retired is less than $1M per F-15 plus updates AND operating costs. You might also consider the benefits of reducing the number of disparate training and support streams.

oldsig

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Yeah. Exactly - but the point was with F-15C’s only requiring ~$1M in structural work to keep them viable for another decade+ that alone isn’t a huge cost to absorb. Particularly when to make F-16 viable as a replacement they will need significant investment as well (in both the platform and infrastructure). Even then they won’t match the Eagle in certain areas (loadout for one).

But I agree - The fact is that someone in the USAF has the numbers to make an educated decision. At present the USAF seem to be leaning towards the upgrade (EPAWSS, Structural mods, new mission computers, IRST all being talked about...)

The Russians have managed to successfully attack and disable a USAF EC-130 H Compass Call aircraft in Syria, with EW. The aircraft wasn't physically damaged, but it was successfully prevented from undertaking its assigned mission. This is symptomatic of Syria being the most aggressive EW environment on Earth. The Russians are apparently well ahead of the US in EW capability.

Boeing claim to be close to fixing the issue that has prevented the USAF from accepting the first KC-46. They hope to deliver the first aircraft to the USAF this (northern) summer.

Remember that list of KC-46 problems? Here’s how they’re getting fixed.

ngatimozart said:

The Russians have managed to successfully attack and disable a USAF EC-130 H Compass Call aircraft in Syria, with EW. The aircraft wasn't physically damaged, but it was successfully prevented from undertaking its assigned mission. This is symptomatic of Syria being the most aggressive EW environment on Earth. The Russians are apparently well ahead of the US in EW capability.

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It was an AC-130 not an EC-130 in the end. It does raise the point that the US in not replacing the EF-111 Raven was a miscalculation.

MrConservative said:

It was an AC-130 not an EC-130 in the end. It does raise the point that the US in not replacing the EF-111 Raven was a miscalculation.

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I believe they are looking at the NGJ for the F35A/C with AusGov pitching in 250m for the program.

Australia and US sign Next Generation Jammer development MOU | Australian Aviation

I wonder where that leave the RAAF aircraft numbers with 72 A's on order plus the additional 28 yet to be ordered with most on here advocating for the B where does that leave E/A18-G?.......A further buy of F35A?

IIRC the Growler E/A-18G is classed as a 'support aircraft' by the RAAF, so it is not counted in any calculation of the future total '100 F-35s' for the RAAF. Anyway this is an USAF thread is it not? USAF aircrew fly the present day Growler on 'expeditionary ops' but in a pinch (unless specifically forbidden) they could train to go onboard CVNs. USAF would continue to crew the NGJ Growler I'd wager.

Lockheed Martin delivers last upgraded C-5
Lockheed Martin delivered its last C-5M Super Galaxy to the US Air Force on 2 August, ending the service’s upgrade programme for the Vietnam War-era heavy lift aircraft.

Air Mobility Command began a programme to modernize the C-5s in 1998 after a study concluded the decades-old aircraft had 80 percent of their service life remaining. Since, Lockheed Martin upgraded 52 C-5s for the USAF with new engines, avionics and diagnostics systems – upgrades which will extend the service life of the fleet out until the 2040s.

As part of the modernization programme, the C-5’s engines were upgraded from four General Electric TF-39 engines to General Electric F-138 engines. The new engines delivers a 22% increase in thrust, a 30% shorter take-off roll, a 58% faster climb rate, according to the USAF.

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Lockheed Martin delivers last upgraded C-5


50 formers B and 2 C used by NASA
In 4 Sqns to Travis, Dover 18 for each and 8 by AF Reserve Sqns to Lackland also OCU and Westover

Perhaps a portion of the C-17 fleet will benefit from a similar upgrade in 10-15 years? Can't see a new strategic lift transport for at least 20-30 years due to other big programs underway (F-35, B-21 and KC-46).