Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions

It’s almost 2018 so the chances of our procurement people producing an order by 2020 is unlikely plus the 2019 election is another obstacle, junior won’t want “used military kit” as an election issue. Think used subs. The bigger question for Australia is who is going to pay the storage costs while our incompetent government tries to decide on how much to pay and when to buy. IMHO, Australia doesn’t need years of frustration dealing with Canada.

John Fedup said:

It’s almost 2018 so the chances of our procurement people producing an order by 2020 is unlikely plus the 2019 election is another obstacle, junior won’t want “used military kit” as an election issue. Think used subs. The bigger question for Australia is who is going to pay the storage costs while our incompetent government tries to decide on how much to pay and when to buy. IMHO, Australia doesn’t need years of frustration dealing with Canada.

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I wonder if Australia will come under some pressure from the US not to sell them to Canada. Australia selling its older clapped out F-18 doesn't resolve the trade dispute between Canada and the US, nor is it a long term solution for Canada.

2020-2021 is some years away. If something of higher priority comes along that could really stuff up Canada's bet.

StingrayOZ said:

I wonder if Australia will come under some pressure from the US not to sell them to Canada. Australia selling its older clapped out F-18 doesn't resolve the trade dispute between Canada and the US, nor is it a long term solution for Canada.

2020-2021 is some years away. If something of higher priority comes along that could really stuff up Canada's bet.

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We're the original planes purchased through FMS? If so then it would be up to the US govt as to how they are disposed,of.

ASSAIL said:

We're the original planes purchased through FMS? If so then it would be up to the US govt as to how they are disposed,of.

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Even tho they were assembled in Oz, I would imagine it was KD kit through FMS. They would have final sign off.

For a wide number of reasons they might not want these planes to go to Canada.

• It doesn't resolve the US and Canada trade issue. Bringing Australia into it isn't a solution. It just delays the deadline.
• F-35 sales impacted. Canada signed up as a F-35 partner and now its buying up older US planes?
• Canada is a rich tier 1 nation. These aircraft would be more useful for countries like Indonesia, Malaysia who struggle to purchase aircraft new. Also Canada isn't the only one with an ageing F-18 fleet. Spain, would of course love new aircraft, but the country is splitting apart and is flat broke.
• Its undermining Canada's contribution to NATO and US security.

Australia isn't desperate for the sale, and would probably prefer at least some to go to allies in the region.

Malaysia would be one. Current F-18 operator. FDPA member. Talking them into giving up Su-30MKM for more F-18's (or helping continuing to operate the F-18) is far more strategically important than solving Canada's political mess.

I don't know why Canada thinks this is a serious solution.

Serious solution, no, it's junior's solution for a mess he created. If he wants to stick it to Boeing, an order for 80 F-35s and 4-5 Airbus MRTTs would be be much more effective than buying used Hornets from Australia.

StingrayOZ said:

I don't know why Canada thinks this is a serious solution.

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It clearly is not.
However it also may not be - even for the Canadian government.
To me it smells like yet another delaying tactic, introduced so that the Canadian government can stretch out making any kind of decision.
As has been said in this thread before - the government has worked itself into a corner and may simply be trying to buy time.
MB

Milne Bay said:

It clearly is not.
However it also may not be - even for the Canadian government.
To me it smells like yet another delaying tactic, introduced so that the Canadian government can stretch out making any kind of decision.
As has been said in this thread before - the government has worked itself into a corner and may simply be trying to buy time.
MB

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I agree it could be a delaying tactic but Defence Industry Daily is reporting that Canada has officially submitted an expression of interest to Australia to acquire its legacy F/A-18 Hornets.

It also says in part that the move to try to acquire fighter jets from Australia also coincides with the US government’s decision to slap nearly 300 per cent duties on CSeries civilian passenger jets made by Bombardier and that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is expected to bring up the Boeing complaint and duties with US President Donald Trump during meetings this week.

Would be nice to be a fly on the wall at that meeting.

pgclift said:

I agree it could be a delaying tactic but Defence Industry Daily is reporting that Canada has officially submitted an expression of interest to Australia to acquire its legacy F/A-18 Hornets.

It also says in part that the move to try to acquire fighter jets from Australia also coincides with the US government’s decision to slap nearly 300 per cent duties on CSeries civilian passenger jets made by Bombardier and that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is expected to bring up the Boeing complaint and duties with US President Donald Trump during meetings this week.

Would be nice to be a fly on the wall at that meeting.

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If they keep the delay tactics up, when will Lockheed say time out on workshare

t68 said:

If they keep the delay tactics up, when will Lockheed say time out on workshare

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Very interesting dilemma LM finds itself in at the moment. They have gone from position zero to serious contender thanks to Boeing and their biggest obstacle, idiot junior, who has dug a hole for himself deeper than his own!

Workshare should have been diverted the moment junior got elected with his "no F-35 stance". Given the current situation, I guess it is a hard call for LM now. Any threats on workshare could push our idiot PM towards a Gripen or Rafale option built in Canada by Bombardier. This only works if anti-American sentiments start to rise. IMO, LM should call junior out and announce a $hit or get off the pot approach. They need a PR campaign to convince the dim- witted here a full fighter replacement is the best option forward. The Euro solution isn't really viable and he has screwed his SH option.

In regards to workshare I would put it back in Junior's court by setting a deadline for a commitment and make it clear that if said date passes and a commitment isn't made that the workshare for the F35 will be officially diverted. No excuses or BS... this date is when either the order is made or the work moves.

TBH I don't know what the best date is to set but I'd pick something and then it's purely up to the Canadians if they choose to give up the work share or not.

John Fedup said:

Very interesting dilemma LM finds itself in at the moment. They have gone from position zero to serious contender thanks to Boeing and their biggest obstacle, idiot junior, who has dug a hole for himself deeper than his own!

Workshare should have been diverted the moment junior got elected with his "no F-35 stance". Given the current situation, I guess it is a hard call for LM now. Any threats on workshare could push our idiot PM towards a Gripen or Rafale option built in Canada by Bombardier. This only works if anti-American sentiments start to rise. IMO, LM should call junior out and announce a $hit or get off the pot approach. They need a PR campaign to convince the dim- witted here a full fighter replacement is the best option forward. The Euro solution isn't really viable and he has screwed his SH option.

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It is hard to believe that even the most cynical politician would go with Gripens and Rafales rather than the aircraft that even blind Freddy can see is the only really viable long-term option for Canada.

With the F-35 not only do you get the most capable plane available today but you also get access to a program of continual improvements and upgrades for the next 30 or 40 years. There is no guarantee that you will get that for any other contender. All you will get is an airframe that is already a generation old with little to no future support or development.

To buy these aircraft would put the lives of future pilots and Canada's very security at risk, just the salve Trudeau's ego.

ASSAIL said:

We're the original planes purchased through FMS? If so then it would be up to the US govt as to how they are disposed,of.

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Yes, they were purchased via FMS.

What I don't understand about this whole business of Canada wanting to buy Australian F/A 18s is that Canada originally purchased 138 F-18s but downsized their fleet to the current 80, or so, airframes. What happened to the other 60-odd airframes?

Oberon said:

Yes, they were purchased via FMS.

What I don't understand about this whole business of Canada wanting to buy Australian F/A 18s is that Canada originally purchased 138 F-18s but downsized their fleet to the current 80, or so, airframes. What happened to the other 60-odd airframes?

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Without knowing for sure, I would hazard a guess that there has been some cannibalisation of them to keep the current fleet.
MB

Well it is now a formal request.

Canada formally declares interest in buying RAAF Hornets | Australian Aviation

If the Canadian PM is interested in upgrading the Prime Ministerial car fleet my neighbour is currently trying to sell his 1994 Commodore Statesman. There is a little rust in the doors and the bearings are shot but with a little love and care, he might be able to get a few more years out of it.

Oberon said:

Yes, they were purchased via FMS.

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What I would love to see (as this whole sorry continuing saga), is for the US to block the sale and transfer to Canada, won't happen of course if an agreement is reached.

That would stir the pot a bit more too!!!

Oberon said:

What I don't understand about this whole business of Canada wanting to buy Australian F/A 18s is that Canada originally purchased 138 F-18s but downsized their fleet to the current 80, or so, airframes. What happened to the other 60-odd airframes?

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Yes Canada did originally procure 138 Classic Hornets, 98 A's and 40 B's.

But in the early 2000's when they started to upgrade them (similar to the upgraded RAAF configuration from what I remember), they only upgraded a total of 80 airframes, 62 A's and 18 B's.

And since then they have lost another three, think the fleet is down to 77 airframes (in total they have lost about 20 aircraft since entering service).

With the current size if their fleet (77) and with losses (20), that leaves approx. 40 airframes that were not upgraded in the early 2000's.

I think it is fair to say that those 40ish airframes have probably been picked over, and even if they haven't, they will be in their original 'pre-upgrade' configuration, and depending how well they have been stored (or not), well that's another issue too.

So if I was the dumb schmuck who was stuck as being the Canadian Defence Minister at this moment, and if I've been given my riding instructions from the Canadian PM to find another 'interim' solution, then yes, the soon to be retired RAAF Classic Hornets are probably as good as it gets!

At the end of the day, I don't mind our Canadian cousins procuring some of our retiring Classic fleet, but I don't want to see one single airframe leave Oz until their is sufficient F-35A's delivered, and we are well into the transition from one to the other.

And I especially want to see the 'best of the best' kept here until the last F-35A arrives in 2023 too.

Cheers,

I agree, Australia should keep the best classics until the F-35 transition is well underway. Besides, supplying junk would be ok as these "interim" jets aren't really needed and Liberals will only notice long after they are paid for.

John Fedup said:

I agree, Australia should keep the best classics until the F-35 transition is well underway. Besides, supplying junk would be ok as these "interim" jets aren't really needed and Liberals will only notice long after they are paid for.

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Bugger, Should have sold you guys our old F-111's.. Little bit of a spit shine and they would have been perfect.. Promise

Not sure you could fool junior with them but you might be able to flog your Collins subs in 25 years as almost new assuming we have a Liberal government then.

This link describes the possibility that the US could veto the sale Australian Hornets to Canada. Not sure if this would be good or bad for the RCAF. Not getting used jets is a positive IMO but a veto may because a wave of anti-American sentiment (beyond what Trump is already causing) providing junior with an excuse to go European. Hopefully LM is pointing this out to some of the brighter people on the Trump team.

Plan to buy used fighter jets from Australia far from straightforward, experts say - Politics - CBC News