North Korean Military.

cdxbow

Well-Known Member
Going to war over NK is not in their interests, a coup to replace Kim with a puppet is. Probably not a bad outcome for the West either compared to the status quo.
Yes, a puppet regimen is the best we could expect, but it would have to be denuked. The Chinese can't feel that comfortable with NK missiles & nukes, as the most important parts of China are within range, and Kim is pretty erratic. We have had a few years of Kim purging those associated with China, so I don't know if a purge could be arranged now by China. Perhaps the US will provide the power vacuum & China will fill it with her puppets.

I thought this was very funny and not without a grain of truth re attention seeking:
https://youtu.be/9uEKml0drPo
 
Interesting stuff. Estimated outcome in conflict(I can't post links yet because of my post count but the source is Business Insider)
North Korea will open with artillery and rocket fire from positions on the North slopes of the mountains just across the border. The North has the world’s largest artillery force with 10,000 pieces in their arsenal. The bulk of these forces are at the border, with much of the rest around Pyongyang and near Nampo, the site of their electricity-producing dam. It is likely that the South Korean capital of Seoul, just 35 miles from the border, would be the first target and would be devastated in the opening salvos.

With the artillery on the North side, hidden in the mountain, there would be little warning of an attack and US and South Korean air forces would have trouble penetrating the North Korean air defenses. Air operations would be tricky because the North keeps tight interlocking lines of antiaircraft guns and surface-to-air missile systems. Pyongyang itself is a “fortress.”

North Korean special operations forces would be inserted via submarines along both coasts and through tunnels dug under the DMZ (many have been found in previous years). Latest reports suggest they would use special operations to deliver chemical attacks and dirty bombs in the South. They also have significant biological weapons facilities in the North that they tested on their own citizens.

They would also activate sleeper agents in the South to direct missile and artillery fire. South Korean intelligence estimates up to 200,000 special operators in the North Korean military, trained to fight Taliban-like insurgencies.

The US air assets in the area will establish air superiority over the region, destroy air defenses, attempt to take out the artillery and missile batteries, and then destroy Northern command and control elements. After that, allied airpower will target infrastructure like bridges and roads, especially the unification highway linking the capital at Pyongyang with the border, to keep Northern forces from being able to move effectively inside their own country.
And about re-unification:
A 2013 RAND Corporation research paper estimated the cost of unification to be upwards of $2 trillion dollars. This is not only to pay for the war, but for food for the population and restoration of all the infrastructure the Kim regime neglected over the past sixty-plus years.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting stuff. Estimated outcome in conflict(I can't post links yet because of my post count but the source is Business Insider)


And about re-unification:
ignores one of the greater issues - that basically the whole population needs a vulcan mind meld to be performed on them to switch them back on to the realities of life outside of NK

you're sealing with armed moonies first of all, then you would have hostile moonies, then submissive moonies - and then years of trying to re-educate and pacify.

rebuilding society and slowly injecting a different sense of national identity would be a generational problem
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Interesting stuff. Estimated outcome in conflict(I can't post links yet because of my post count but the source is Business Insider):
All but the northernmost edge of Seoul is out of range of most of North Korea's artillery, even if was all positioned as close to Seoul as possible. The subset of North Korea's artillery which can reach a significant part of Seoul could not "devastate it in the opening salvos". It'd need to sustain fire for a long time to cause devastation.

S. Korean air assets alone would establish air superiority almost immediately, with the assistance of the (smaller number of) US aircraft stationed in S. Korea, as long as their airfields remain usable. The main threat to that is N. Korea's arsenal of ballistic missiles.
 

Blue Jay

Member
All but the northernmost edge of Seoul is out of range of most of North Korea's artillery, even if was all positioned as close to Seoul as possible. The subset of North Korea's artillery which can reach a significant part of Seoul could not "devastate it in the opening salvos". It'd need to sustain fire for a long time to cause devastation.

S. Korean air assets alone would establish air superiority almost immediately, with the assistance of the (smaller number of) US aircraft stationed in S. Korea, as long as their airfields remain usable. The main threat to that is N. Korea's arsenal of ballistic missiles.
Yet from what I know, North Korea's artillery sites are not only very numerous, but a significant portion of them are hardened and/or well-concealed. There are also reportedly large numbers of fakes deployed.

Even if S. Korea establishes air superiority, would they (along with the USAF) be able to find and destroy, or at least suppress N.K.'s artillery effectively? Or would said artillery have enough survivability to deal significant damage before being silenced? I do believe that the artillery would be silenced eventually, but would it be done soon enough?

Considering modern counter-battery techniques, and the fact that S.Korea would have air superiority, I wouldn't be surprised if the ROKAF could indeed neutralize the NK artillery, but at the same time, I am loathe to underestimate the points I mentioned above, which could easily shine if properly taken advantage of. North Korea's military isn't very well trained, but is a high level of training necessary for success in this case?

Perhaps another factor to consider is the possibility of friendly ground forces overrunning said artillery positions before air power does the job?
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I'm sure North Korea's artillery would do significant damage, but that is not devastation. And note that if published estimates are correct only about 5% of it can hit the centre of Seoul, & that's assuming that 5% is crammed into a few very small sectors of the border, which should make targeting easier.

I think it can be safely assumed that the ROK & US armies have every fixed N. Korean position on the border mapped, & possible fakes marked.
 

Blue Jay

Member
I think it can be safely assumed that the ROK & US armies have every fixed N. Korean position on the border mapped, & possible fakes marked.
I would not be surprised at all if that were the case. The extent of prepared defenses that SK has is pretty impressive. I know people who served up near the border during their time in the ROK army and they described to me how they had pictures of the terrain their position overlooked inside of their fortifications complete with range markers, fields of fire etc. The machine gunner's job was pretty much cut out for him. Some guard posts had machine guns that were mounted on unmovable, fixed mounts that were already sighted and zeroed in on opposing guard posts. All they had to do was pull the trigger.

Anyways, thanks for the reply swerve.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Much of the task of neutralizing NK's artillery would fall to SK artillery and not the air force.

The South probably added GMLRS and SPIKE NLOS exactly for this in addition to their conventional tube and rocket artillery arsenal.

NK's has a huge problem which lies with the ever more numerous fielding of air and especially ground based PGMs. From SPIKE NLOS over GMLRS, ATACMS and indigenious ballistic and cruise missiles lots of hardened or otherwise hard to hit pinpoint targets in NK are suddenly highly at risk from all weather, short notice ground based PGM systems.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I would not be surprised at all if that were the case. The extent of prepared defenses that SK has is pretty impressive. I know people who served up near the border during their time in the ROK army and they described to me how they had pictures of the terrain their position overlooked inside of their fortifications complete with range markers, fields of fire etc. The machine gunner's job was pretty much cut out for him. Some guard posts had machine guns that were mounted on unmovable, fixed mounts that were already sighted and zeroed in on opposing guard posts. All they had to do was pull the trigger.

Anyways, thanks for the reply swerve.
Thanks for your post. What you say about the S. Korean positions isn't surprising, but it's interesting. Ta.
 
So there is all these talks that Trump has been putting pressure on China to do something about North Korea.

Now there is this:
China rejects North Korean coal shipments, opts for US supplies instead | Fox News

China said in February it was suspending North Korean imports for the rest of this year.

China is North Korea's largest source of trade and aid and targeting coal imports are meant to deprive Pyongyang of an important source of foreign currency.
What can China actually do however? Write NK an angry letter? Call them and kindly ask them to quit developing nukes and de-arm what they currently have?

I really don't see what the plan here is. All they seem to be doing is pissing NK off into doing something stupid. Thoughts?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
So there is all these talks that Trump has been putting pressure on China to do something about North Korea.

Now there is this:
China rejects North Korean coal shipments, opts for US supplies instead | Fox News



What can China actually do however? Write NK an angry letter? Call them and kindly ask them to quit developing nukes and de-arm what they currently have?

I really don't see what the plan here is. All they seem to be doing is pissing NK off into doing something stupid. Thoughts?
The answer to your question depends on whether the DPRK leadership is ultimately rational and calculating or just insane/detached from reality. In the former case, presumably they'd be scared when even Russia and China start not just sending signals but taking measures. If however we believe the latter, then there's no way to answer your question.
 

cdxbow

Well-Known Member
So there is all these talks that Trump has been putting pressure on China to do something about North Korea.

Now there is this:
China rejects North Korean coal shipments, opts for US supplies instead | Fox News



What can China actually do however? Write NK an angry letter? Call them and kindly ask them to quit developing nukes and de-arm what they currently have?

I really don't see what the plan here is. All they seem to be doing is pissing NK off into doing something stupid. Thoughts?
I think China and the US are collaborating upping the ante at the moment, increasing the pressure on the regime. I expect this will go on for a while in the hope the fatboy gets rolled from within, which is unlikely, but worth a shot. I expect it will end in a US strike, with PRC support and the installation of proper puppet regime. I don't think the US or China will allow him to miniaturise his nukes to fit on missiles and the window on that is closing.
 
Ya that's how I see the NK situation playing out.....with military conflict. I don't see them just rolling over and stopping their nuclear program. Maybe the dad would have, but Kim Jon Un seems like next level crazy. It's like every lineage they breed more crazy into the genetics.


However I don't think this will be easy with military intervention. I don't see this as some Tomahawk missiles getting the job done. I feel like this would be a a 2-3 year war type thing that would be messy. They might be 30+ years behind in military technology, but they have a large scale force and soldiers that seem like they don't care about dying.


The question is, would it be USA alone, or would USA weirdly collaborate with China(sounds so weird saying that), and potentially even Russia? And a bigger question is, what does S.Korea do in all this? Would they go in as well or just sit back and play defense?
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There's no easy solution that ends well.
NK has several thousand artillery pieces aimed at Seoul from across the border and any ill considered action could press the trigger, the result would be calamitous for all concerned.

I see the only solution coming from pressure applied from China because that link is the only tenuous thread that keeps the failed state viable.

The US should keep the military option in the closet for now but continue the strategic pressure.

I don't hold out for any change from within as the Kim psychophants fill every position of power as a result of 3'generations of servitude.
 
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