The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

S

swerve

Super Moderator
ASFC said:
Well if they follow what was recommended for S3C3 or whatever they called it (10 C1's, 8 C2's and 8+ C3's) for FSC then I do not see what the problem is, as we will have plenty of hulls in the water-32 at least.
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But C3 was not intended as a first line fighting ship. From Richard Beedalls site - 2007.

... Cdr Brunton identified these as:

* a Force Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) Combatant (known as C1)
* a Stabilisation Combatant (C2)
* an Ocean-Capable Patrol Vessel (C3).

He said "... C3 would replace the capabilities of our existing mine warfare fleet but also offer additional capability for maritime security tasks."
...
C3 is currently envisaged as a vessel of approximately 2,000 tonnes displacement with a range of 7,000 nm for constabulary and minor war vessel tasks. Cdr Brunton said "We see this vessel being used for maritime security and interdiction operations. It would also have a large mission bay aft, reconfigurable for special forces, MCM or a Lynx helicopter.
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A 2000 ton OPV, configurable for minesweeping, etc. Good for chasing fishing boats, drug smugglers & pirates, but not comparable to a frigate.

Also, now Type 45 has been cut to 6, what's the prospect of getting another 18 first line ships?
 
A

ASFC

New Member
Of course C3 is not a front line fighting ship-it does not have to be to, as it will be used for our 'quieter' commitments around the world no? Doing the work that would free up the 24 Front line ships we would have for more important jobs.

As for if we will get 18-I have no idea, but I suspect that part of the deal that saw the RN give up T45 7 & 8 is the promise of a full compliment of FSC in 10 years time (as well as the obvious of building the CVF now). To be fair if everything had been built we would have had 34 various Frigates/Ocean Patrol Vessels of various capablitities-2 over SDR, so either they could cut the T45s or the C1's. IMO they have played their hand and made the cut now.
 
C

contedicavour

New Member
It's amazing how fast Horizon/Type 45 DDG numbers have been cut... from 12 UK and 4 for each of France and Italy down to exactly half that :shudder

What sort of AAW capability would the FSC / future FFG ships have ?

cheers
 
S

Sea Toby

New Member
contedicavour said:
It's amazing how fast Horizon/Type 45 DDG numbers have been cut... from 12 UK and 4 for each of France and Italy down to exactly half that :shudder

What sort of AAW capability would the FSC / future FFG ships have ?

cheers
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I do not think anyone knows for sure, but I would suspect at least Aster 15s. The CVFs will take eight years to build both, so I wouldn't expect a final decision soon, possibly within six years?
 
S

Shanliang

New Member
Why were the three Type-23s sold to Chile anyways, while Type-22s were kept in service? Political reasons I suppose - stillthe old story with Argentina?
Other than that, I never really understood the logic behind this deal... must've been a real bargain for Chila to get 10-year-old frigates, just like the deals with the Netherlands.
 
O

overlander

Member
what is clear is that there is a need for a small frigate classsimilar to french floreals to patrol waters like in the caribbean or gulf and if the number of escorts continue decreasing in the R.N it would be impossible to maintain the sea lines open without these kind of frigates, a force of 18 escorts or so is totally short for this task.
 
C

contedicavour

New Member
Shanliang said:
Why were the three Type-23s sold to Chile anyways, while Type-22s were kept in service? Political reasons I suppose - stillthe old story with Argentina?
Other than that, I never really understood the logic behind this deal... must've been a real bargain for Chila to get 10-year-old frigates, just like the deals with the Netherlands.
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There is a logical reason actually - Type 22 batch 3 are larger than Type 23 and fitted as headquarters ships for smaller operations.
Though I agree selling off such still recent ships is irresponsible...

cheers
 
C

contedicavour

New Member
overlander said:
what is clear is that there is a need for a small frigate classsimilar to french floreals to patrol waters like in the caribbean or gulf and if the number of escorts continue decreasing in the R.N it would be impossible to maintain the sea lines open without these kind of frigates, a force of 18 escorts or so is totally short for this task.
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On top yes. But if you let politicians handle it you'll end up with only this class of oversized oceangoing OPVs instead of FSC FFG and smaller OPVs...

cheers
 
S

Sea Toby

New Member
The French navy swallowed the Floreals, and then a few years later had to swallow more Lafayettes, less than idea frigate replacements. The Dutch sold off half of their Karel Doormans, and ended up buying OPVs as replacements. This wasn't a push, its a minus any way one looks at the situation. The OPVs are no Karel Doormans.

Similar to New Zealand. Four Leander class frigates ended up being replaced by two Meko 200 Anzac class frigates. A few years later New Zealand adds two OPVs of the Otago class. Well, the Otagos are no Anzacs.
 
Systems Adict

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Shanliang said:
Why were the three Type-23s sold to Chile anyways, while Type-22s were kept in service? Political reasons I suppose - still the old story with Argentina?
Other than that, I never really understood the logic behind this deal... must've been a real bargain for Chile to get 10-year-old frigates, just like the deals with the Netherlands.
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Try looking at the comments posted at the bottom of the article ....

http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/articles/2007/11/warships-going-cheap-flogging-off.html


They should explain why.....

SA
 
P

Padfoot

New Member
harryriedl said:
In regards to the aritical there is some some discrepancies the JCA is an RN project and is overall RN control [thats why an Admraile was STOVL role out in the USA] and many programs are in progress and are dependent on what happens in the next 5-10 years just reamber how there was going to be a fleet of 4 T22 after 1981 but proved so useful they bought 3 batches.

all depends on the need

also Beedells site is useful but is a glass half empty type and views are worse than the most negative views

the future for the RN is brighter than its been for a long time
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Yeah, I don't get Beedell's obsession with numbers!! If you're planning on fighting a major war with a major power, then yes, I can understand his point of view. Otherwise, I'd rather have world-class, more capable ships, but fewer numbers. You don't need expensive escorts for anti-piracy duties after all.

Maybe he's just playing politics?:unknown


PS: Where has it been confirmed that there are to be 6 Astutes instead of 7?
 
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harryriedl

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Padfoot said:
Yeah, I don't get Beedell's obsession with numbers!! If you're planning on fighting a major war with a major power, then yes, I can understand his point of view. Otherwise, I'd rather have world-class, more capable ships, but fewer numbers. You don't need expensive escorts for anti-piracy duties after all.

Maybe he's just playing politics?:unknown


PS: Where has it been confirmed that there are to be 6 Astutes instead of 7?
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there were long leads reported on this site for parts for 7 Astutes class i can't remember the page
 
R

rickusn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
"just reamber how there was going to be a fleet of 4 T22 after 1981 but proved so useful they bought 3 batches."

No I dont "reamber"but in fact I remembered events quite differently and went back to my reference library to check.

Actually it was eight (8) T-22s as that what was ordered before the Falklands crisis hit.

Four more were ordered and justified as Falklands War replacements(to make 12) and another two were ordered as the Type 23 design process was totally revamped due to the same afore mentioned crisis. (total 14)

Originally 26 were envisioned but the high cost lowered expectations to "at least 14" ie to match the expected Type 42 run subsequently dropped to 12 and then at the darkest hour 8.

However to "compensate" both the SSN and SS programs suffered no cuts and in fact were accelerated.

An interesting exercise is to match the size, cost and capabilities of the final Type 23 design compared to the original Type-22 Batch 1 ships.

As is a study of Royal Navy escort history post-WWII to the present

The Royal Navy continues to suffer actual cuts and threats of cuts.

Its future doesnt appear to be particularly "rosy" at the moment.

"quanity has a quality all its own".

To be sure the one constant in warship constuction for at least a Hundred years has been balancing capability(quality) and numbers(quanity) of naval fleets.

Beedall(Not Beedell and BTW your spelling in general is STILL atrocious) is by far the most honest, informative, prescient, accurate, realistic and pragmatic commentator/analyst on the Royal Navy.

Unlike yourself.
 
Systems Adict

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
rickusn said:
"just reamber how there was going to be a fleet of 4 T22 after 1981 but proved so useful they bought 3 batches."

No I dont "reamber"but in fact I remembered events quite differently and went back to my reference library to check.

Actually it was eight (8) T-22s as that what was ordered before the Falklands crisis hit.

Four more were ordered and justified as Falklands War replacements(to make 12) and another two were ordered as the Type 23 design process was totally revamped due to the same afore mentioned crisis. (total 14)

Originally 26 were envisioned but the high cost lowered expectations to "at least 14" ie to match the expected Type 42 run subsequently dropped to 12 and then at the darkest hour 8.

However to "compensate" both the SSN and SS programs suffered no cuts and in fact were accelerated.

An interesting exercise is to match the size, cost and capabilities of the final Type 23 design compared to the original Type-22 Batch 1 ships.

As is a study of Royal Navy escort history post-WWII to the present

The Royal Navy continues to suffer actual cuts and threats of cuts.

Its future doesnt appear to be particularly "rosy" at the moment.

"quanity has a quality all its own".

To be sure the one constant in warship constuction for at least a Hundred years has been balancing capability(quality) and numbers(quanity) of naval fleets.

Beedall(Not Beedell and BTW your spelling in general is STILL atrocious) is by far the most honest, informative, prescient, accurate, realistic and pragmatic commentator/analyst on the Royal Navy.

Unlike yourself.
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...With ALL due respect Rick, & not wanting to start any arguement, but who are your comments directed at ??

Me ??

I ask, as you didn't have the courtesy to name anyone, & your posting follows directly on from mine.

I have the joys of being British, with UK English as my only language.
Add to this the fact the the Spell checker for this site is in US English, it may explain for some of the terrible use of language, never mind those of the younger generation who tend to touch type without reading what they've typed / speak in txt, or those who post here & have English as their 4th or 5th tongue !


To pass comment at others without spell checking your own comments is first, a bit OTT, & secondly is about hypocritical !


Nuance's aside, I agree 110% that "BEEDALL" is an excellent source of information, but it is better to gather ALL data on the subject & look at it objectively, rather than just listening to one person's point of view.


Hope this helps....

SA :smilie
 
S

Sea Toby

New Member
I don't think Beedal will be happy unless the Royal Navy bought 12 Type 45s, and built at least another 12 new frigates similar to the FREEMs, along with at least another 6 attack nuclear submarines.

I haven't figured out how he will man that many ships.
 
B

battlensign

New Member
Sea Toby said:
I don't think Beedal will be happy unless the Royal Navy bought 12 Type 45s, and built at least another 12 new frigates similar to the FREEMs, along with at least another 6 attack nuclear submarines.

I haven't figured out how he will man that many ships.
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Good thing the RN has been cutting all those people since the end of the Cold War as a "Peace Dividend" then!

Brett.
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
VT shareholders approved the joint venture with BAe (BVT) by 121 million to 768 thousand at the EGM today. BVT will therefore commence operations tomorrow, as planned. I'm not sure if the CVF contract will be signed on Wednesday or Thursday: I've heard both.

Website already up -

http://www.bvtsurfacefleet.com/
 
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O

overlander

Member
it,s possible that in the next general elections the conservative party will win, would it affect the construction of the 2 cvf,s ??
 
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