Communist tactics in Korean War
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Chrom - please read thru my reply, I only stated 4 million Germans in the military if you take a look at total German civilian casualties then that number climbs up around 9 million. at least 80 percent of all German attrition accured on the Eastern front. And it was a known fact the Russia had women and male children fighting as soldiers. Why do you think that Stalin placed pressure on the Americans and British to open up a second front, it was the high cost of human lives that the Russians were suffering, the Germans were bleeding them dry, would they still of won the war without American and British intervention, YES! it would of taken them another year or so but Russia would of prevailed. There are many credible sources that are out there, and Russia will back these numbers up. If you want my source of information then let me know and I will share it with you. It was a terrible war fought around the world and let`s all hope that we do not have to go thru another one. Here is something else to think about - if Stalin had not committed the great purges in his military officer ranks, would the war have been even shorter.
Rich- here you go;
This is a survey of 78 battles fought between the Western allies and and the German Army-
...................... W. Allies ............German
Total Troops......1,783,237...........940,198
Total casualties .....47,743............48,585
average per day......1.25%.............1.82%
avg. effectiveness....1.45.................2.25
This is just the beggining. Factor in Allied superiority in Airpower, supplies and numbers of Tanks and artillery guns, and you wind up with an even more dismal picture (2.35-1 becomes a conservative figure). Those 78 battles are from Sept. 9 1943 to Dec. 7 1944, in Italy and France. I can list them all, if you want.
Now, for the Eastern Front, over roughly the same period, the whole of 1944.
....................................Russian............German
Field strength.................6.1 million.........3.5 million (ending with 2.5)
battle losses...................5 million............1.1 million
kills per man.....................0.18................1.4
ratio,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,1.0/7.78
since the Germans were on the defensive, I cut that ratio by 1/3
that leaves us with a true ratio of 1.0/2.56
This is a survey of 78 battles fought between the Western allies and and the German Army-
...................... W. Allies ............German
Total Troops......1,783,237...........940,198
Total casualties .....47,743............48,585
average per day......1.25%.............1.82%
avg. effectiveness....1.45.................2.25
This is just the beggining. Factor in Allied superiority in Airpower, supplies and numbers of Tanks and artillery guns, and you wind up with an even more dismal picture (2.35-1 becomes a conservative figure). Those 78 battles are from Sept. 9 1943 to Dec. 7 1944, in Italy and France. I can list them all, if you want.
Now, for the Eastern Front, over roughly the same period, the whole of 1944.
....................................Russian............German
Field strength.................6.1 million.........3.5 million (ending with 2.5)
battle losses...................5 million............1.1 million
kills per man.....................0.18................1.4
ratio,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,1.0/7.78
since the Germans were on the defensive, I cut that ratio by 1/3
that leaves us with a true ratio of 1.0/2.56
Good job - you have done your home work on this and I am in total agreement.
Manfred, lets see how many false fact you got:
I didnt claimed that. My claim is 1:1.3 for USSR - AXIS losses.
Another very common myth. Technicaly speaking, by 1941 Russia had 1.8 times the population of 3d Reich (100 millions vs 180 millions) - NOT COUNTING OTHER AXIS STATES. But already by 1942 Russia had lost 80 millions population under occupation - so the actual ratio became more like 1:1 - NOT EVEN COUNTING OTHER AXIS STATES. Also, rememer what Germany occupied a whole Europe, and they didnt needed as much workers / farmers as USSR. And from that false myth you get false conclusion
There is a simple fact Germany ALONE reqruited 22 millions soldiers against 32 millions on USSR side. PLUS we must add here several millions Hungarians, Romanians, Finns, Bolgarians, Italians, etc.
As such, dont feel too bad if you numbers a way off of reality.
Then find the truth, and show it with numbers.
You know, you again twisting numbers. You compare apples with oranges. What 5.1 losses did suffer USSR? KIA ? MIA? WIA? Or KIA+MIA+WIA? Or what? What losses did suffer Germany in your numbers? KIA? MIA? WIA? Or KIA+MIA+WIA?
As there is no way USSR could suffer 5.1 millions KIA in 1944 alone. Its just unhistorical. So we must conclude it was KIA+MIA+WIA. Again, there is no way Germany army could suffer only 1.1 millions KIA+MIA+WIA in 1944 - so we must conclude this figure is pure KIA or KIA+MIA losses.
You must always take numbers and they meaning very, very carefully.
Chrom - why are you so sensitive when it comes to Russia, Manfred is right when it comes to approximate amounts of attrition like it or not. You cannot prove him or anybody else wrong. In this day and age you cannot hide the truth on how that war was fought. Again I ask you to go back and research your facts, I have taught Soviet war tactics to U.S Army officers and senior non commissioned officers, do you think they would have me conduct training seminars if I was blowing smoke up somebodies rear end. You cannot base anything from Joseph Stalins mouth or anybody else serving as a leader over there until around the 1990`s. Come on - Russia won the fight and no body is taking anything way from her, for a country to take that kind of a beating and end up on top says alot about about it`s people and character.
Again, let the propaganda myths go. The only means of thruth are numbers. As you rightly say, NOW you cant hide truth behind myths about "closed archives" , "so very secret ducuments" and "bloody communists censorship".
As to why i'm so sencitive... its my field of interest. And it hurts my feeling when peoples spread untrue about the history. No more, no less.
Alright, I start with numbers I can call you on right away. The population of the USSR in 1940 was 180 million, fair enough, and that Of the USA was 135 million. Germany- 65 million. Thay nation could only have 100 million if you added Austria (small) Bohemia (very unhappy, ever heard of Lidice?) and occupied Poland. Oh yeah, and Alsace-Lorraine, none of these places would have contributed many soldiers worthy of the name that would fight for the Third Reich.
22 million Germans in uniform? Huh? I heard 11 million, maximum.
And yes, my figures for 1944 were TOTAL cassualties, Permanently removed from action for one reason or another- dead or as good as dead for military purposes. I left out non-combat cassualties; 2million for USSR and .7 million for Germany.
(enjoying the show, Waylander?)
22 million Germans in uniform? Huh? I heard 11 million, maximum.
And yes, my figures for 1944 were TOTAL cassualties, Permanently removed from action for one reason or another- dead or as good as dead for military purposes. I left out non-combat cassualties; 2million for USSR and .7 million for Germany.
(enjoying the show, Waylander?)
Thats where your myths started. Austria, Elsas-Lothringen, etc. nicely ammounts to 100 millions of NATIVE GERMANS. Dont tell me tales about how few reqruiters they got there - EVERY german citizen in these places MUST HAVE go to army. So, dont tell tales. And 22 millions of germans reqruited to army - thats an official german MOD figure. No more, no less. You cant deny that.
Numbers for you to note
Official Germany population:
Ferbruary 1938 - 66,031,000
March 1938 - 72,790,000 (Austrien)
October 1938 - 76,426,000 (Sudeth)
September 1939 - 79,922,000 (DANZIG)
October 1939 - 89,858,000 (West Poland, a native German territory)
July 1940 - 89,940,000 (East Belgium)
July 1940 - 89,940,000
Plus
Elsas - 1,219,000 (1936)
Lothringen - 696,000 (1936)
Luxemburg - 290,000 (1941)
Slovenien - 775,000 (1941)
Plus Belorussia - Belostock district
Plus natural growth from 1938, plus some native (and no-so-native) germans what hurried from all over captured Europa to recive German citezenship and get a fat pie from future prospects.
All in all, pretty close to 100 millions for native population of 3d reich. And dont ever tell us what somehow the native germans from Lothringen was worse than the ones from Berlin. Althought i can easely point out what many USSR peoples from Caucasus or Asiatic republic was indeed not-so-russian, and they had indeed very low reqruiment rate.
Again, this is only 3d Reich numbers. Now please add the population of Hungarian, Finnland, Romanian, Bulgarian, and partially Italian to the mix by itself.
P.S. Nearly EVERY german i know what is over 75 years old (and i know quite lot of them) - was in army. Every other german i know - had father/grandfather what was in army. If you have so much experience with Germany (may be you even live there) - ask your friends about they fathers. You'll see.
Dont this tell something to you?
So, you wanna tell us what german army suffered 1.1 millions casualities including wounded in the whole 1944, the WORST year from the war beginning? Nonsense. Yes, it is. They lost so much KIA in that year alone. Now, you would tell us what Red Army suffered 5.1 UNRECOVERABLE losses in 1944 year alone? In they BEST year from the begin of the war? Nonsence again. You can count it yourself: 32 millions reqruited, 12 demobilized => 20 was out of service for whatever reason: KIA, MIA, WIA, POW. Thats for the whole war, the all 4 years. And let me tell you, first 2 years was a LOT worse than last 2 years.
Again, there is no doubt in USSR numbers. Now archives are open, and every historican can access them. So in the last 10 years there is generally concensus between world historicans about USSR army losses. With Germany army losses things are different - there are no full archives left, and the numbers are very hard to come by.
P.S. For every one who dont have Krivosheev Book translated to english at hand:
This link http://www.rus-sky.org/history/library/w/w05.htm#_Toc536603348 is full Krivosheev book with all numbers, tables, etc. in Russian. You can read it with translate.ru (better) , or babelfish (worse)
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Grand Danois
Entertainer
I am a bit curious about these numbers. Are you talking Wehrmacht/Axis figures commited to the Eastern Front only, or do they include North Africa, the Western Front, Italy, Balkans etc. And do they include or exclude naval and Luftwaffe personnel?
Germany numbers what i've quoted are total numbers including all fronts, all personell. Thats the part of problem - you often see only separate army losses, or separate army KIA losses without even MIA included. From such numbers take the root all kind of myths.
About 80% of all german *manpower* losses was on East Front. All other Axis allies losses (excluding Italy) was also East Front.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
80% of German losses sound about right to me. However, they did only commit, depending on time, ~ two thirds of their resources to the Eastern Front. So it may be that the figure wrt recruiting should be normalised.
The Air War over Europe was for instance hugely manpower consuming, but relatively low cost in loss of life and casualties.
Doesnt matter how much of them commited to Eastern Front. Only losses play the role. Besides, best units was on the East front anyway - you cant just compare a deprived of best mens and technic division in France and constantly fighting division under Kursk. Its just natural what non-fighting western units got mostly new reqruits for initial learning and old technic (except airforce ofc). For example, from 1941 to 1945 almost 1/4 of Soviet army was positioned against Japan, Iran and other non-fighting possible enemies. But, as you understand, its doesnt mean anything as these soldiers hardly consumed anything but food.
The manpower commited to Air War from Germany side was not that big. Yes, from 1944 a major part of they fighters protected Germany from Air raids, but the number of pilots , ground personell commited and resources lost to such task was relatively low (compared to ground forces), as its naturally Luftwaffe was the least numerous part of german war mashine. May be by end of 1944 Germany had 1/3 of they forces split against USA&Britain (certainly not sooner), but that will require futher reading. I dont have such numbers on hand, and will be glad to be pointed to any credible source.
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Grand Danois
Entertainer
I does matter as you are comparing performance on warfighting potential, in this case manpower and losses as a metric. You need to ferret out what was actually committed by the Germans to fight the soviet Union.
I would suggest tables of manpower strength of the Axis and Soviet armies on the eastern front for the period of 1941-1945 in order to ferret out performance.
At the height of the Air War Germany had 500,000 soldiers engaged to defend Germany. Fighter sqns. Early warning, infrastructure, FLAK btn etc. This means many more served in these units. It is an example of tasking of the German forces outside of the Soviet Theatre that skews the numbers.
Again, pure resources commited as such doesnt mean much. I already gave you example why. Whats matter is the resources spend.
Imagine a picture: Country A have 1 million army on they left border, and also 1 million army on they right border. Now, left border is constantly under attack for years and suffered heavy casualties. Already as much as 3 millions soldiers are killed there. Right border suffer only rare skirmish attacks, and suffered only several thousand casualies. According to your logic country A spend the equal resources on both borders. But anyone can see the failed logic here. The only true answer would be resource flow, and major part of it is soldiers killed, tanks burnt, and planes shot down.
Also, 0.5 millions for the whole Reich air defence? It might seems a lot, but pale in comparation to ground forces numbers. Also, dont forget what already by the end of 1944 Germany AD was also heavly fighting against russian bombers.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
I understand what you are trying to say. But the premise is wrong. I did not say it was equally spent.
A soldier and a tank that never appears on the Russian Front has never fought on the Russian Front.
A soldier, tank or a fighter tasked with fighting other battles cannot be tasked with fighting on the Russian Front.
You need to isolate the resources used on this theatre to gauge effectiveness of troops, equipment, tactics, strategy fighting in the theatre.
You are saying everything was available for the Germans to fight in Russia - no, this wrong. And I am not saying everything was available for the Russians to fight the Germans.
The only way to asses this is to look at what was committed by both sides. Comparing warfighting potential does not yield a meaningful conclusion.
Edit:
What I am saying is, that when 2/3 of the German forces are committed to fighting in Russia, the remaining 1/3 doesn't sit around on holiday. That 1/3 is actually fighting active battles elsewhere. It it simply not available for the Russian front.
I hope it clears my thoughts up a little.
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Thanks for taking the time to post but thats not good enough. What battles?? There were many battle, even campaigns, where the Germans had higher numbers of troops in the immediate battle area. Dont forget Yanks faced Germans in Africa, Italy, and west Europe starting in 1942.
Regarding tanks I'd have to agree there was German superiority in both tank types, guns, and tactics. Indeed it was the Germans who invented modern tank warfare.
But establishing such a meaningless criteria as 2.25 to 1 in the fluid, and many, battles of WW-ll ? Impossible! Anyone can play with numbers to make this or them look like superior soldiers using superior tactics but, for one thing, nobody can even agree with the numbers of men in the German army during the war anyways. And you just cant count the Germans because there were many men from allied and conquered nations who suited up as well. The figure Ive seen most is 18.5 million Germans and allies wearing the uniform.
So unless you have some rock solid sources for your numbers game dont believe your numbers impress.