Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[swerve]

So why not look at others? It's not as if it's the only choice.

 

[Maranoa]

Was there ever any clarity over the ability of a helicopter to land/take off on the Arafura flight deck. I know the semantics about 'not operating' a helo, but could a MH-60R helicopter land on the deck in extremis, or in an emergency as opposed to being embarked for operational purposes?

 

[Massive]

IIRC there were concerns about the security of the S100, though it might also have been the fact that the selection was made by the previous gov't as a single source procurement rather than an open tender (from apparently give short-listed contenders). It is also possible there were other concerns about the capability and functionality of the S100 drones themselves.

I feel that the S100 is an overly complex and expensive solution in a rapidly evolving market.

This was a good move regardless of performance and alternatives are definitely available.

Ben

 

[hauritz]

Yea, the speartooth might be a better match for the Arafura. It aparently has a super long range in the order of 2,000km. Haven't heard much about the Spearfish for a while.

I should note the weight of the ghost shark probably rules them out from the Hunter as well. I think its mission bay crane is rated to about 16 tonnes. Perhaps the Speartooth is a better match for the Hunter.

The ghost shark range I don't think has been publicised, but I suspect it is substantially longer than the speartooth. I suspect it may not actually need a mother ship and can do its own thing.

All in all though, I think the Arafuras have a better purpose. I view they would be more effective with an aerial drone, like the Schiebel S100 we tested and ditched some time ago. Two of these in containers would utilse the flight deck very well have a 200km odd range and could carry a reasonably decent ISR package.

Aerial drones suits the patrol nature of the Arafura better, and provide it over the horizon visibility. The Arafura could operate in the same region as patroling ghost sharks, so it can still utilise their intel and protection.

I haven't heard anything about a replacement for the S100. I'm still not sure why we discontinued it. What happened here?

The FFMs will operate UUVs from its stern dock mission bay. I haven't been able to find out whether they could specifically handle something the size of the Ghost Shark but given the size of the ship I would be surprised if it couldn't.

 

[Stampede]

Yea, the speartooth might be a better match for the Arafura. It aparently has a super long range in the order of 2,000km. Haven't heard much about the Spearfish for a while.

I should note the weight of the ghost shark probably rules them out from the Hunter as well. I think its mission bay crane is rated to about 16 tonnes. Perhaps the Speartooth is a better match for the Hunter.

The ghost shark range I don't think has been publicised, but I suspect it is substantially longer than the speartooth. I suspect it may not actually need a mother ship and can do its own thing.

All in all though, I think the Arafuras have a better purpose. I view they would be more effective with an aerial drone, like the Schiebel S100 we tested and ditched some time ago. Two of these in containers would utilse the flight deck very well have a 200km odd range and could carry a reasonably decent ISR package.

Aerial drones suits the patrol nature of the Arafura better, and provide it over the horizon visibility. The Arafura could operate in the same region as patroling ghost sharks, so it can still utilise their intel and protection.

I haven't heard anything about a replacement for the S100. I'm still not sure why we discontinued it. What happened here?

The S100 or equivalent type of aircraft appeared an excellent fit across the fleet. OPVs and others!
Respectable range ,load capacity and variety of payloads .
Vertical take off and landing and a small physical foot print logistically
What’s not to like!
A popular platform adopted for land and sea by many other defence forces.

Difficult to understand why we have let this go considering the training investment and knowledge base established with the S100.

Most perplexing

Cheers S

 

[Todjaeger]

The S100 or equivalent type of aircraft appeared an excellent fit across the fleet. OPVs and others!
Respectable range ,load capacity and variety of payloads .
Vertical take off and landing and a small physical foot print logistically
What’s not to like!
A popular platform adopted for land and sea by many other defence forces.

Difficult to understand why we have let this go considering the training investment and knowledge base established with the S100.

Most perplexing

Cheers S

It appears that Russia is one of the S-100 users in their Coast Guard, and the PLAN is (or was, back ~2012) another. IMO this could cause some concern among the RAN and ADF staff. Yes, a number of NATO/allied nations appear to have the S-100 in service, but I am uncertain whether or not the areas where the S-100 is utilized by Euro users are likely to come into contact with either Russian Coast Guard vessels, or PLAN warships. OTOH, the RAN could easily end up deployed to an area where PLAN vessels are nearby, if not in direct contact with.

There is also the potential matter of sole sourcing rather than getting tenders from competitors. With four other vendors short-listed, it does appear that other options were available, options which could possibly have been better suited to Australian and RAN needs than the S-100.

 

[Reptilia]

The FFMs will operate UUVs from its stern dock mission bay. I haven't been able to find out whether they could specifically handle something the size of the Ghost Shark but given the size of the ship I would be surprised if it couldn't.

stern dock is only for multi mission usvs(with small uuvs) or rhibs. The ozz-5 uuvs on the Mogami are lowered down from openings on the starboard/port side.
No chance we see ghost shark on the Mogami, it is bus sized in its shortest form.
Hunter has a 40ft+ long mission bay opening with 12-16 tons lift capacity, so it will be able to.

 

[Stampede]

It appears that Russia is one of the S-100 users in their Coast Guard, and the PLAN is (or was, back ~2012) another. IMO this could cause some concern among the RAN and ADF staff. Yes, a number of NATO/allied nations appear to have the S-100 in service, but I am uncertain whether or not the areas where the S-100 is utilized by Euro users are likely to come into contact with either Russian Coast Guard vessels, or PLAN warships. OTOH, the RAN could easily end up deployed to an area where PLAN vessels are nearby, if not in direct contact with.

There is also the potential matter of sole sourcing rather than getting tenders from competitors. With four other vendors short-listed, it does appear that other options were available, options which could possibly have been better suited to Australian and RAN needs than the S-100.

Correct there are other S100 sized options.
The concept is sound in this size and weight and variety of payloads, ISR and kinetic
The Scan eagle / RQ21 has great perseverance but a lot of logistic baggage for a ship.
Doable, but is it the best choice?

As for the Arafura / helicopter capability.

Just talking engineering and physics not doctrine ,the manufacturer claims it’s good for a medium 11 t helicopter and during the “it does/ it does not dance” during manufacture of the OPV the latest I recall is it does!

Will it happen?
I feel it should, but it will need certification which will take commitment , which I somehow don’t think will happen any time soon.

Its a bit like phalanx on the LHDs and other should haves

Makes sense, but we’ll either kick it down the road or make an excuse not to have it!

Cheers S

 

[Todjaeger]

Correct there are other S100 sized options.
The concept is sound in this size and weight and variety of payloads, ISR and kinetic
The Scan eagle / RQ21 has great perseverance but a lot of logistic baggage for a ship.
Doable, but is it the best choice?

As for the Arafura / helicopter capability.

Just talking engineering and physics not doctrine ,the manufacturer claims it’s good for a medium 11 t helicopter and during the “it does/ it does not dance” during manufacture of the OPV the latest I recall is it does!

Will it happen?
I feel it should, but it will need certification which will take commitment , which I somehow don’t think will happen any time soon.

Its a bit like phalanx on the LHDs and other should haves

Makes sense, but we’ll either kick it down the road or make an excuse not to have it!

Cheers S

Me being me, I would be quite interested to find out what the other short-listed contender offerings were, as well as finding out what/why the previous gov't decided to go with a sole source rather than what AFAIK is the normal tender process.

 

[justinterested]

This Defence Dept story may give an indication of the direction Navy is taking with drones.
A quote from the story:
"Following months of rigorous training, preparation and integration, 822X Squadron has officially transitioned to operations with the Integrator and begins a new phase in uncrewed operations in Navy. "

 

[ADMk2]

Was there ever any clarity over the ability of a helicopter to land/take off on the Arafura flight deck. I know the semantics about 'not operating' a helo, but could a MH-60R helicopter land on the deck in extremis, or in an emergency as opposed to being embarked for operational purposes?

Defence testified to the Senate that there were no structural changes to the flight deck in the design, but helicopter capability was not added to the vessel.

Clear as mud…

 

[Stampede]

This Defence Dept story may give an indication of the direction Navy is taking with drones.
A quote from the story:
"Following months of rigorous training, preparation and integration, 822X Squadron has officially transitioned to operations with the Integrator and begins a new phase in uncrewed operations in Navy. "

Thanks for the post

It really is one of those typical PR posts that uses lots of words to say very little.

“ We flew an aircraft !”

What that means going forward I cannot say.

Cheers S

 

[Going Boeing]

It is now public that the US, along with a number of Western countries (including Australia), have been working on a technology called Distributed Acoustic Sensing (DAS) which can use existing underwater fibre optic communication cables to detect and track submarines, UUVs & surface vessels.

DAS works by using standard fiber-optic cables as long chains of acoustic sensors. When a pulsed laser is sent through the cable, tiny backscattered signals vary based on vibrations or stress caused by nearby sound waves.

By analyzing these patterns, advanced algorithms can detect and localize undersea sounds such as submarine engines, ship propellers, or seismic activity.

The technology effectively converts existing telecommunications cables into a continuous, distributed, real-time monitoring system, capable of listening to the ocean over thousands of miles, at a fraction of the cost of traditional sonar systems or hydrophone networks.

Beyond military use, DAS can detect cable tampering, natural disasters such as earthquakes, and even illegal underwater activity, offering both strategic and commercial benefits.

This sounds like it has the potential to be more capable than SOSUS and could be a game changer. The flow on from this is that it makes destruction on submarine cables a higher priority for potential adversaries.


US, EU navies to use 750,000-mile cable network to track submarines