The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #12,742
I think it's ironic to say that Putin doesn't want to negotiate, and then simultaneously declare that European security is not up for negotiation, when that's the very thing Putin has repeatedly stated he wants to negotiate about. I think these statements are fundamentally dishonest and are about the image the writer wants to project, not about reality. Russia would love to end the war soon, if they could accomplish their goals, but they won't end the war without accomplishing their goals, unless the course of the war itself turns against them. Clearly the collective west is unwilling at this time to provide the kind of inputs that could accomplish that, it isn't even clear that this is possible without a direct entry into the war. So here we are. Europe pretends it's Putin who doesn't want to negotiate, while openly refusing to negotiate on anything but the terms they want to set.
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
I do not agree.
As a european, I never spare european leaders from any criticism when i feel like they deserve it because as a citizen I have not only the right but the duty to do so.
This peace deal, as the High Respresentative said in the first line, is vital.
However, the way Trump and his friend Vladimir Putin are following is profoundly wrong.
An unjust peace, a peace that will let Putin get away with a devastating war that costed hundreds of thousands of lives without paying any price will not last.
Anger is a popular sentiment in Europe, probably only less popular than antiamericanism.
Us and Russia want to humiliate Europe and Ukraine for not being totally cooperative to them, for not doing exactly what they want.
I can't but blame my fellow citizens and my leaders for that, we have chosen years of political-nothing because we were too scared to say anything against the US or Moscow.
However, if Trump and Putin choose the way of humiliation, they will not bring peace in Europe, they will simply stop a war for some time leading to a much worse one in the future.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #12,744
None of this addresses my point. If she had said "We don't want negotiations because Ukraine has nothing to negotiate, with, and anyways there's nothing to negotiate over. Russia can withdraw from the recognized internationally territory of Ukraine or Europe will support Ukraine until victory or until Ukraine itself decides they like the peace deal that's on the table", it would have been a clear, consistent, and honest statement. Instead she's claiming it's Putin that doesn't want to negotiate. A statement that's completely untrue. She doesn't say "Putin's peace deal is unjust, we want a peace based on justice and Putin won't negotiate based on justice". She said "Russia has no intention of ending this war any time soon" and "Putin continues to drag out negotiations and hopes he gets away with it". Her end statement is even sillier. The root cause of the war in fact is Russian imperialism. But the European security architecture has failed to deal with Russian imperialism. So there clearly is an imbalance in European security architecture. It's not imaginary.
I stand by my original assessment. This isn't an honest take on the situation, it's an attempt to put out a certain message that the writer finds convenient. Stating things as they really are would be uncomfortable because it would invite a discussion of European commitments to Ukraine and whether they are even remotely enough to move the needle, in light of a rejection of Putin's peace proposals, and negotiations based on the realities of the war. So instead she pretends it's Putin that won't negotiate.
KipPotapych
Well-Known Member
What is a just peace?
The entire process has been about trying to convince Trump that Putin is lying (what is he lying about?), doesn’t want to end the war (do they?), and can’t be trusted, while Putin stating his position that hasn’t changed much since the beginning (after he raised the stakes). Everyone declaring a win after every meeting or conversation, the pendulum swings back and so it goes on and so does the war.
In reality, no one but Trump wants this to end until their (near) maximalist goals are accepted and wants to stall the process, as long as they do not alienate Trump. I think Putin cares a lot less about the latter, he just sees Trump as useful in convincing the other side to accept his position precisely because they care very much about that very latter.
The entire process has been about trying to convince Trump that Putin is lying (what is he lying about?), doesn’t want to end the war (do they?), and can’t be trusted, while Putin stating his position that hasn’t changed much since the beginning (after he raised the stakes). Everyone declaring a win after every meeting or conversation, the pendulum swings back and so it goes on and so does the war.
In reality, no one but Trump wants this to end until their (near) maximalist goals are accepted and wants to stall the process, as long as they do not alienate Trump. I think Putin cares a lot less about the latter, he just sees Trump as useful in convincing the other side to accept his position precisely because they care very much about that very latter.