Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It's a bit Schrodinger's cat at the moment, it is both alive and dead, or more to the point the key decisions have been made, just not announced.

While it makes sense discussing what may happen, the closer it gets to the decision being made, let alone in between it being made and announced, the more pointless the discussion becomes. At that point why not just wait then discuss once revealed.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
With all due respect, what's the point of a discussion board if you can't discuss? Obviously speculation needs to have some connection to reality, but if so, what's the harm? If all we are doing is waiting for press releases, it's not much of a community. Just my opinion of course.
IMO when the discussion consists of speculation because there are few or no known facts, then the discussion itself is not that valuable because there is no way to gauge whether or not the speculation has a connection to reality and if there is a connection, just how strong (or tenuous) it might be.

This situation grows even worse when people assert opinion as fact and conflate similar things into being the same thing.

What can help improve the situation is when people posting their opinions and/or speculation, provide some supporting facts as well as a logical outline of their thinking which led to whatever their opinion was or speculation is.

A person posting that, "XYZ is going to occur or be done," without including whatever led to that opinion leaves readers with a binary choice, either the poster is correct or they are wrong. Depending on what XYZ actually is, it might be quickly or even immediately known to be false OTOH it might be years before the accuracy of the statement is known.

I suspect that the 20 Block IV Tomahawks are tube launched versions for the Collins class.

‘Deterrent to regional threats’: Australia to secure hundreds of Tomahawk missiles
As a side note, unless the DSCA release was inaccurate, then the TLAM's would not be for use from Collins-class SSG's. The announcement was for a total of 220 RGM-109E Tomahawks, 200 Block V AUR and 20 Block IV AUR. Had the Tomahawks been those for launch from a submarine, then they would have been UGM-109., since R is the designator for missiles launched from surface vessels, while U is the designator for missiles launched from subs.

This kind of highlights some of the problems with the kinds of speculation which has been getting made recently.
 

Jason_DBF

Member
The hull form for Astute and Dreadnought is shaped for reducing active acoustic search returns - it's intended to make the boat harder to detect using sonar pings in other words.

In short, it's not a hydrodynamic measure.
I can assure you submarine hydrodynamics is a major consideration with submarine design and goes hand in hand with noise reduction measures. The design of the casing are extensively tested to have minimal water flow associated noise and coated to improve the absorption/reflection of active sonar transmissions.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Are the Tomahawks to replace the Harpoons on the Hobart class and not deployed on the Hunter class ,200 hundred and twenty missiles sounds a lot for just three ships?
The Strike Length Mk 41 VLS on the Hobarts are currently the only system the RAN possesses for launching the Tomahawks, the Harpoons are being replaced by NSMs. We need to wait for the DSR to know how many vessels we will have to carry them.
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Are the Tomahawks to replace the Harpoons on the Hobart class and not deployed on the Hunter class ,200 hundred and twenty missiles sounds a lot for just three ships?
The Harpoon will be replaced by the Kongsberg NSM.
Tomahawk for all intents and purpose a new capability.


Cheers
 

knightrider4

Active Member
P
The Strike Length Mk 41 VLS on the Hobarts are currently the only system the RAN possesses for launching the Tomahawks, the Harpoons are being replaced by NSMs. We need to wait for the DSR to know how many vessels we will have to carry them.
Pat Conroy Minister for Defence Industry stated that this acquisition of Tomahawk Cruise Missile will be for the Hobart Class. By 2033 these systems will be very old indeed ancient and their utility may be questionable to a modern IADS.
Adit: I'm referring to the Tomahawk missile system being ancient by 2033.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I thought I'd share this article from ASPI titled -Remembering James Goldrick, an outstanding naval officer, historian and strategist.


I know nothing of the man but suggest he must of been well admired to warrant such an article.

Others may find this of interest.



Cheers S
 

Wazza

New Member
Top weight issues are the problem there, very well documented. Heavily discussed on the forum, look back through the previous RAN thread where it has been discussed in depth.

Cheers
[/QUOTE
I understand and acknowledge that but it’s not a top weight issue in the same way as ESSM or phalanx, the weight is dispersed deeper into the hull. I believe there was a post recently ( I couldn’t find it) that related to a future Anzac upgrade that mentioned a possible increase in missile payload.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
If we read through the last few pages of the RAN thread, it's been " I suspect that...." or "I imagine it will..." or "I think what it means is...." I am getting a bit sick of the excitement about the current announcements so far. Can we just wait for details instead of speculation please?
I suspect that would be the logical thing to do or I imagine it will lead to some very grumpy gentleman and if experience has taught me anything I think that will mean a wack across the back of out heads.. :)
 

Anthony_B_78

Active Member
I suspect that would be the logical thing to do or I imagine it will lead to some very grumpy gentleman and if experience has taught me anything I think that will mean a wack across the back of out heads.. :)
I really don't understand this thinking. I mean, yes, we all understand that it can get frustrating reading utterings that are wrong on the internet. But that's going to happen no matter where you are. To not discuss topics of mutual interest out of some concern that people are going to get frustrated (even if those people might be the fabled "DEFPROs") is over the top. The funny thing here is the discussion has been really engaging, constructive, civil. Yes, there's much speculating. Of course there is. As there would be on any topic that people are interested in. "What's going to happen next? What decision will the powers that be make? What decision should they make? What are the options?" Should these discussions as are being had here be left for the slightly moderated discussions for subscribers of Nine newspapers or for social media, where there is so little knowledge it's more than frustrating, it's positively infuriating? Do we who take part in the discussion here really want there to be little to no activity for days on end as we wait for details? I think old faithful has unfairly characterised the discussion. Yes, people are speculating what certain details released so far actually mean, but they are doing so from rational, informed, logical positions. I've seen the discussion here referenced on another forum. It's credible, it's engaging, it's informative. There's just no need for grumpiness. Rather, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed. I have been enthused to read every comment. Like all of you, I can tell the difference between idle and informed speculation, between facts and assumptions, and so forth. Still, this is a really big development for my country, it's a topic I'm interested in, and I want to hear different opinions - even those I might disagree with.
 

knightrider4

Active Member
I really don't understand this thinking. I mean, yes, we all understand that it can get frustrating reading utterings that are wrong on the internet. But that's going to happen no matter where you are. To not discuss topics of mutual interest out of some concern that people are going to get frustrated (even if those people might be the fabled "DEFPROs") is over the top. The funny thing here is the discussion has been really engaging, constructive, civil. Yes, there's much speculating. Of course there is. As there would be on any topic that people are interested in. "What's going to happen next? What decision will the powers that be make? What decision should they make? What are the options?" Should these discussions as are being had here be left for the slightly moderated discussions for subscribers of Nine newspapers or for social media, where there is so little knowledge it's more than frustrating, it's positively infuriating? Do we who take part in the discussion here really want there to be little to no activity for days on end as we wait for details? I think old faithful has unfairly characterised the discussion. Yes, people are speculating what certain details released so far actually mean, but they are doing so from rational, informed, logical positions. I've seen the discussion here referenced on another forum. It's credible, it's engaging, it's informative. There's just no need for grumpiness. Rather, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed. I have been enthused to read every comment. Like all of you, I can tell the difference between idle and informed speculation, between facts and assumptions, and so forth. Still, this is a really big development for my country, it's a topic I'm interested in, and I want to hear different opinions - even those I might disagree with.
You should read some of the comments regarding SSN's on some of the defence publication sites one of whose editors is known to wine and dine on the defence industries dime. Believe me this forum is not too bad.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I can assure you submarine hydrodynamics is a major consideration with submarine design and goes hand in hand with noise reduction measures. The design of the casing are extensively tested to have minimal water flow associated noise and coated to improve the absorption/reflection of active sonar transmissions.

You've lost me there - I can't see anywhere in my post where I claimed hydrodynamics aren't important ? I'd simply indicated that the reason the hull form is shaped that way is driven by reduction of signal return. I'm sure someone sat down and did all the usual tank tests etc, but I'd gathered from the person I was replying to that they thought the hull might have been shaped for some reason due to flow or passive quietening.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Presumably the same principle as the stealth shaping on the F-117?

How interesting.
Very similar idea I believe - push the reflected pulse away from the source and scatter the return. It's so far, completely novel as far as I understand.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I thought I'd share this article from ASPI titled -Remembering James Goldrick, an outstanding naval officer, historian and strategist.


I know nothing of the man but suggest he must of been well admired to warrant such an article.

Others may find this of interest.



Cheers S
I knew James well; we are near contemporaries, we served together, we have both been members of the Navy Records Society for many years and I was on the committee of the Australian Naval Institute with him. A very good and successful officer who became, arguably, Australia’s first real Naval historian and published strategic thinker on maritime affairs, as opposed to those who publish populist books designed for the general public. I, and many others not only here but overseas, will greatly miss him. A sad loss and much too young; he was only 65.

James was the second generation. His father, Peter, was my CO many years ago and was also an excellent officer.
 
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