The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

Feanor

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Staff member
I am some what skeptical of the video's that have a single tank on tank engagement. Are they for real or are they simply acted out scenario's for propaganda purposes. I find it unlikely that a couple of separate tanks would be wandering around a battlefield all alone without some form of support. The simple question is 'why would you' what would you hope to achieve.
I mean... yeah. But also, we've seen a lot of strange engagements in this war. We've seen a lone Russian T-80BVM rolling around while Ukrainian infantry tried to hit it with NLAWs. The scenario is questionable, but without additional information, it's not outside the realm of what goes on in this war. It's possible there are other elements in play, but out of shot.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
But in the scope of things these singular engagements don't bring the perspective to the overall large amount of equipment losses estimated in the thousands for both sides ,that many of the soldiers will be using weapons and vehicles that their grandfathers could easily have been using shows how desperate the situation is ,that's not including the loss of life to the possible effect on demographics for both countries
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
I am some what skeptical of the video's that have a single tank on tank engagement. Are they for real or are they simply acted out scenario's for propaganda purposes. I find it unlikely that a couple of separate tanks would be wandering around a battlefield all alone without some form of support. The simple question is 'why would you' what would you hope to achieve.

It does look real, because I have seen so many Russian tanks alone with absolutely no support, getting picked off by the UA guys.

I guess when lines are this fluid, when comms get jammed so much and when there is a pretty decent mix of poorly trained soldiers on both sides running around, this is possible.
 

ngatimozart

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Verified Defense Pro
I mean... yeah. But also, we've seen a lot of strange engagements in this war. We've seen a lone Russian T-80BVM rolling around while Ukrainian infantry tried to hit it with NLAWs. The scenario is questionable, but without additional information, it's not outside the realm of what goes on in this war. It's possible there are other elements in play, but out of shot.
I have seen videos of strange encounters as well and not just in this war. The fog of war is quite real, people get lost due to confusion in combat, or more accurately geographically misplaced, because in the military you never admit to being lost. However in today's world it can be difficult to determine if such videos are genuine or dis/misinformation.
 

ngatimozart

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This might be the biggest loss of the war for Russia.
Maybe but losing 50 in one action is not that uncommon. However if it's a HQ as has been suggested then the loss is somewhat magnified. The level of magnification depends upon the level of seniority of the HQ. A battalion HQ no so much, a regimental HQ a bit more, a divisional HQ it's getting quite serious, a Corp HQ it's very serious and an Army HQ it's extremely serious.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member

This might be the biggest loss of the war for Russia.
"There is evidence"... what's the evidence? He links to telegram post which links to another telegram post which links to another telegram post, which merely makes the claim. The kicker? The first telegram link doesn't mention anything about 50 dead. :rolleyes:

First link doesn't mention hitting a Russia HQ either... it doesn't even mention Ukrainian strikes, merely explosions. The second telegram post linking to the first claims a strike (logical enough in principle) and 3 burning tanks, but nothing about 50 dead. The third adds the detail about 50 KIA, and now gets quoted.
 

ngatimozart

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It appears that the VMF have pulled its Black Sea Fleet into port. HI Sutton has written an update in the USNI News. This appears to be in response to the Ukrainian USV & UAV attack on Sevastopol Naval Base on 29/10/22. Even if the attack failed to sink any ships it has achieved a strategic victory because it has caused the Russians to withdraw their surface assets from the Black Sea waters near Ukraine. Whether this withdrawal is temporary or permanent remains to be seen, but the Ukrainians are definitely forcing the VMF to respond to it. Not bad for a country that has virtually no navy in the theatre.


Iran finally admits sending UCAVs to Russia but swears that they weren't many and delivered before the Russians invaded Ukraine. I have very strong doubts about the delivery period.


UK Forces News on future danger of Russian air power in Ukraine War.

Ukraine welcomes Western AD systems arrival in Ukraine.

Zelenskiy ready for peace talks with Russia but not whilst Putin is still Russian leader.
 

ngatimozart

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Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
ISW Updates. 1/2
These are deliberately posted without comment in order for members to reach their own conclusions.

Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment
November 9, 9:15 pm ET

Full article:
Institute for the Study of War

The pdf can be downloaded here.

Main Points.
Click
here to see ISW’s interactive map of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. This map is updated daily alongside the static maps present in this report.

The Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) ordered Russian forces on the west (right) bank of the Dnipro River to begin withdrawing to the east (left) bank on November 9.
Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu ordered the withdrawal of Russian troops across the Dnipro River during a highly staged televised meeting with Commander of the Russian Armed Forces in Ukraine Army General Sergey Surovikin on November 9. During the televised meeting, Surovikin recommended the withdrawal and Shoigu accepted his decision, giving Surovikin the task of ensuring the “safe transfer of personnel, weapons, and equipment” to the east (left) bank.[1] Shoigu and Surovikin’s statements mark the beginning of a steady, fighting withdrawal by Russian troops across the Dnipro to prepared positions on the east (left) bank to preserve the combat power of Russian units, including elements of the 76th and 106th Airborne Assault Divisions and 22nd Army Corps.[2] Surovikin notably stated that half of the troops withdrawn from the west bank of the Dnipro will be redeployed to other areas of Ukraine. The entire Russian contingent will take some time to withdraw across the Dnipro River and it is still unclear if Russian forces will be able to conduct the withdrawal in relatively good order under Ukrainian pressure. The battle of Kherson is not over, but Russian forces have entered a new phase—prioritizing withdrawing their forces across the river in good order and delaying Ukrainian forces, rather than seeking to halt the Ukrainian counteroffensive entirely.

The Ukrainian counteroffensive in the Kherson direction since August—a coordinated interdiction campaign to force Russian forces to withdraw across the Dnipro without necessitating major Ukrainian ground offensives—has likely succeeded.
As ISW has observed over the previous months, Ukrainian forces engaged in a purposeful and well-executed campaign to target Russian concentration areas, military assets, and logistics nodes throughout Kherson Oblast to make continued Russian positions on the west bank untenable without having to conduct large-scale and costly ground maneuvers to liberate territory.[3] Ukrainian troops launched constant attacks on bridges across the Dnipro River and targeted supply centers and ammunition depots on the east bank of the Dnipro that degraded the ability of Russian forces to supply the grouping on the west bank; Ukrainian forces combined these strikes with prudent and successful ground attacks on key locations such as Davydiv Brid. This campaign has come to fruition. Surovikin directly acknowledged that Russian forces cannot supply their grouping in Kherson City and the surrounding areas due to Ukrainian strikes on critical Russian supply lines to the west bank.[4] Russian sources noted that the withdrawal is a natural consequence of targeted and systematic Ukrainian strikes that cost the Russian grouping on the west bank its major supply arteries, which gradually attritted their overall strength and capabilities.[5]

The Russian withdrawal from the west bank of the Dnipro is unlikely to be a trap meant to lure Ukrainian troops into costly combat near Kherson City, as some Ukrainian and Western sources have suggested.[6] ISW has previously observed many indicators that Russian forces, military and economic assets, and occupation elements have steadily withdrawn from the west bank across the Dnipro River, and Russian officials have been anticipating and preparing for withdrawal in a way that is incompatible with a campaign to deceive and trap Ukrainian troops.[7] Russian commanders will certainly attempt to slow Ukrainian advances to maintain an orderly withdrawal, and some forces may remain to delay Ukrainian troops in Kherson City itself—but this fighting will be a means to the end of withdrawing as many Russian units as possible in good order.

The Russian information space predictably reacted to the announcement of the withdrawal with varying degrees of ire and concern. Several Russian milbloggers emphasized that the withdrawal is the natural consequence of systematic failures within Russian military and command structures and framed the withdrawal as an inevitable result of political nuances beyond the realm of military control.[8] Russian sources also emphasized that this is a major defeat for Russian forces because they are losing territory that Russia annexed and claims as its own.[9]

However, many prominent voices in the milblogger space sided with Surovikin and lauded the decision as a necessary one, indicating that Russian leadership has learned from the information effects of the disastrous Russian withdrawal from Kharkiv Oblast in mid-September.[10] A prominent Russian milblogger that has previously stridently criticized the conduct of Russian operations stated that Surovikin “got the inheritance he got” managing operations in Kherson Oblast, and implied that Surovikin did the best he could under the circumstances, so he ultimately cannot be blamed.[11] Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin voiced his support for the withdrawal and called it the “greatest achievement” made by Surovikin due to Surovikin’s stated desire to preserve the safety of Russian troops.[12] Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov agreed with Prigozhin’s assessment and claimed Surovikin saved thousands of lives and is seeking more advantageous positions.[13] These responses, particularly from Kadyrov and Prigozhin, are markedly different from scathing critiques previously leveled at Commander of the Grouping of Russian forces “Center” in Ukraine Colonel General Alexander Lapin following massive Russian losses in eastern Kharkiv and northern Donetsk oblasts.[14] Surovikin has steadily established an informational cover for his decision-making and the eventual Russian withdrawal from positions in Kherson Oblast since the announcement of his appointment as theatre commander of Russian Forces in Ukraine. Surovikin stated that Russian leadership will need to make “difficult decisions” regarding Kherson Oblast as early as October 19.[15] The Kremlin and senior Russian commanders appear to have learned informational and military lessons from previous failures and will likely apply these to the presentation and conduct of this withdrawal. Russian President Vladimir Putin has not commented on the withdrawal as of this publication, suggesting that the Kremlin is framing the withdrawal as a purely military decision.

Russian National Security Council Secretary Nikolai Patrushev met with senior Iranian officials in Tehran on November 9, likely to discuss the sale of Iranian ballistic missiles to Russia and other forms of cooperation. Patrushev met with Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi and Iranian Supreme National Security Council (SNSC) Secretary Ali Shamkhani.[16] The SNSC is Iran’s highest defense and security policy body and reports directly to the supreme leader. Iranian readouts of Patrushev’s meetings largely focused on economic and political cooperation, while Russian readouts emphasized that the discussion focused on security affairs.[17] Patrushev and Shamkhani discussed “measures to counter interference by Western secret services in the two countries’ internal affairs,” according to Russia’s TASS. Iranian officials have repeatedly accused the United States and its allies of stoking the ongoing protests throughout Iran.[18] Patrushev’s visit to Tehran notably comes amid reports that Iran is seeking Russian help with protest suppression, although it is unclear whether Patrushev discussed such cooperation.[19] Patrushev likely sought to secure additional Iranian precision munitions to replenish Russia’s dwindling stocks.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
ISW Updates. 2/2
These are deliberately posted without comment in order for members to reach their own conclusions.

Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment
November 9, 9:15 pm ET

Full article:
Institute for the Study of War

The pdf can be downloaded here.

Key Takeaways
  • The Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) ordered Russian forces on the west (right) bank of the Dnipro River to begin withdrawing to the east (left) bank on November 9.
  • The battle of Kherson is not inherently over, but Russian forces have entered a new phase— prioritizing withdrawing their forces across the river in good order and delaying Ukrainian forces, rather than seeking to halt the Ukrainian counteroffensive entirely.
  • Many prominent voices in the Russian milblogger space sided with Surovikin and lauded the decision as a necessary one, indicating that Russian leadership has learned from the information effects of the disastrous Russian withdrawal from Kharkiv Oblast in mid-September.
  • Russian National Security Council Secretary Nikolai Patrushev met with senior Iranian officials in Tehran on November 9, likely to discuss the sale of Iranian ballistic missiles to Russia and other forms of cooperation
  • Russian and Ukrainian sources reported continued fighting along the Svatove-Kremmina highway and Bilohorivka, Luhansk Oblast.
  • Ukrainian forces made territorial gains northeast of Kherson City and continued their successful interdiction campaign.
  • Russian forces continued offensive operations around Bakhmut, Avdiivka, and in western Donetsk Oblast.
  • Russian federal subjects are struggling to pay mobilized personnel, and the Russian military is struggling to provision them.
  • Relatives of mobilized personnel continue to protest lack of payment and poor conditions.
  • Russian occupation deputy head of Kherson Oblast Kirill Stremousov was killed in a claimed car accident in rear Kherson Oblast the day Russian forces announced their withdrawal from the west bank of Kherson Oblast.
  • Occupation authorities in rear areas are likely increasing law enforcement crackdowns and filtration measures amid fears of Ukrainian counteroffensives after the November 9 withdrawal announcement
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
They aren't necessarily. If you have 4 types of a certain weapon, you don't spread them randomly. You divide them by sectors. Very possible Krabs and M109 were sent to sectors where Russia had dedicated more advanced capabilities.
The last place the PzH-2000s were spotted was Bakhmut which raises interesting questions. On the one hand it's one of the few areas Russia is advancing (well in fact Russia has re-taken Belogorovka, and has launched the attack at Pavlovka, but these are recent). On the other hand the area is firmly being handled by Wagner, who might not have the same access to more advanced kit. On the flip side, not a single Caesar or PzH-2000 were confirmed destroyed. Literally 0. This contrasts with multiple M-109s and Krabs getting hit.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
The last place the PzH-2000s were spotted was Bakhmut which raises interesting questions. On the one hand it's one of the few areas Russia is advancing (well in fact Russia has re-taken Belogorovka, and has launched the attack at Pavlovka, but these are recent). On the other hand the area is firmly being handled by Wagner, who might not have the same access to more advanced kit. On the flip side, not a single Caesar or PzH-2000 were confirmed destroyed. Literally 0. This contrasts with multiple M-109s and Krabs getting hit.
Most of the those confirmed hits were because of videos from lancets feed or from some other drone. If any PZHs and Ceasers are knocked out inside UKr territory and there is no drone to video it, we wont be likely to see it, unless Russia pushes Ukraine back severely(which looks unlikely at the moment). Ukr civillians have remarkable great Opsec built into them over the months of the war, they wont take pics of destroyed Ukr gear and upload them.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Most of the those confirmed hits were because of videos from lancets feed or from some other drone. If any PZHs and Ceasers are knocked out inside UKr territory and there is no drone to video it, we wont be likely to see it, unless Russia pushes Ukraine back severely(which looks unlikely at the moment). Ukr civillians have remarkable great Opsec built into them over the months of the war, they wont take pics of destroyed Ukr gear and upload them.
Good point. Counter point, is there any reason to think fewer PzHs and Caesars would be hit by lancets vs M-109s and Krabs?
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
Are more of these artillery systems at risk soon without tree cover due to winter and being able to shelter from overhead drones ?
 

Exonian

Member
Regarding the Russian position in Kherson. As long as the Russian forces were advancing their position on the west bank of the Dneiper made sense. But here as elsewhere the under-estimation of the ability of the Ukrainian forces to resist has put them in a difficult position. Once Russian forces were put on the defensive with the river bridges at their backs damaged or destroyed they were in a classic military trap situation. I am surprised that Ukraine has managed to keep up the pressure long enough, but it seems to be paying off.

What forces will Russia be using as a rear-guard? A few well motivated Russian units can cause a lot of trouble for Ukraine in the Kherson urban area. On the other hand units composed largely of newly mobilised and partly trained troops may see surrender at the first opportunity as their best option.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
Is it fair to suggest that the war in the Ukraine has reduced Russia's war inventory to unprecedented low levels?
Global defence news suggested that Russia had three thousand tanks at the start of this conflict and higher numbers were misinformation by the Kremlin ,
Russian Army has fewer than 3000 tanks – Global Defense Corp
Is Russia Running Out of Tanks? | The National Interest
Russia Stops Exporting T-90 Tanks As It Lost Astounding 65% Of Land Platforms In Ukraine War – Global Defense Corp
Russian Tank Losses in Ukraine Hit 1,000 – Open Source Analysis - The Moscow Times
This article suggests that Russia has ceased production of modern tanks
Russia doesn't produce tanks, UralVagonZavod with half production (bulgarianmilitary.com)
For those with longer memories of when the Warsaw pact boasted of having thirty thousand tanks these present numbers seem astonishing and may easily be of a number not seen prior 1930
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Is it fair to suggest that the war in the Ukraine has reduced Russia's war inventory to unprecedented low levels?
Of that we can be sure; no doubts at all. Ultimately however; Russia is still in the fight and looks set to be in the fight for quite a while more; irrespective of its heavy losses.

I suppose we'll only get a better picture in the next few months.

I take with a very large dose of salt various reports on Russia; I have no idea if some are accurate; half accurate or just plain disinformation. If we look back at various reports since February on issues the Russians have faced [many no doubt true but some greatly exaggerated] the impression I get is that the Ukrainians should have pushed them back to the Urals by now.
 

Dex

Member
Of that we can be sure; no doubts at all. Ultimately however; Russia is still in the fight and looks set to be in the fight for quite a while more; irrespective of its heavy losses.

I suppose we'll only get a better picture in the next few months.

I take with a very large dose of salt various reports on Russia; I have no idea if some are accurate; half accurate or just plain disinformation. If we look back at various reports since February on issues the Russians have faced [many no doubt true but some greatly exaggerated] the impression I get is that the Ukrainians should have pushed them back to the Urals by now.
The question for Russia is what happens after this war. Let's say they get a peace deal done in Spring. Russia is going to lose an unprecedented amount of their army in a year. We are talking 100,000+ highly trained men that Russia invested millions in. Thousands of Tanks, Armored vehicles, and other equipment. How will Russia be able to project their military in the future when their military has been reduced signficantly for a generation. It will take decades to recover from these losses. Russia was the "2nd Best" military in the world pre-war. After the war, I can't imagine them being listed higher than Poland let alone the other nations in NATO.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
The question for Russia is what happens after this war.
Unless it implodes or is ruled by a new government eager to ingratiate itself with the West; it will still be seen as a major threat; albeit one which has been significantly weakened.

Russia was the "2nd Best" military in the world pre-war.
Was it really? It was seen as capable because of a number of reforms which had been done and because it is a nuclear power but it was never seen as "2nd Best'' per see.

After the war, I can't imagine them being listed higher than Poland let alone the other nations in NATO.
Maybe so but Poland doesn't have the sub and strategic bomber fleet Russia has and it doesn't have nukes.
 
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