Russia - General Discussion.

Ananda

The Bunker Group
That lot will give the Komodo dragons belly aches for ages and probably dysentery as well.
It won't work anyway. Watch some animals channel on Komodo, and some of the findings shown (National Geographics if not mistaken), actually Komodo quite choosy on their target. They actually attack the young and fibrant targets, as they seems know it is where the best meat lies.

However they are more or less avoiding the frail,old and sick, unless it is neccesary. So throwing out some old guys to them, probably won't work, as the Komodo will say; 'meehh bunch of old bones' I can find better meal.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I've never had need to listen to Putin on the subject of US Foreign Policy. There is plenty of material published independent of Russia on the subject. It's undeniable that while the Ukrainian Parliament did the impeaching of Yanukovych, the US was involved up to it's eyeballs with Diplomatic and Financial Support for the Colour revolutions and the Maidan revolution.



I think my research stands up just fine thanks very much. But perhaps you would like to show us why you don't think the US is involved in the Revolutions? That would be interesting.
On 22/2/2013 it was reported that:
"The Verkhovna Rada, Ukraine's parliament, has passed the statement on the implementation of Ukraine's aspirations for European integration and the signing of the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement.
A total of 315 of the 349 MPs registered in the sitting hall supported the document on Friday.
The draft document reads that the Verkhovna Rada “within its powers, will ensure that the recommendations concerning the signing of the Association Agreement between Ukraine and the EU, which are stipulated in the resolutions of the European Parliament and the conclusions of the Council of the EU approved on December 10, 2012, at a meeting of the EU foreign ministers, will be fulfilled.”
The draft document also reads that while expecting positive results from the EU-Ukraine Summit due on February 25 and the Eastern Partnership Summit due on November 28-29, 2013, the Ukrainian parliament will assist in completing the fulfillment of the tasks agreed upon with the EU, first of all, within the EU-Ukraine Association Agenda and the EU-Ukraine Visa Liberalization Action Plan (VLAP), and will ensure that amendments to the EU-Ukraine Visa Facilitation Agreement are ratified.
The Ukrainian parliament also promised to intensify its work on the adoption of laws aimed at streamlining Ukrainian legislation with the EU’s laws, particularly those envisaged by the relevant national program for the harmonization of the Ukrainian legislation with the EU legislation, as well as those related to reforms of justice, criminal justice, and elections legislation.
“As soon as the Ukrainian side takes decisive steps and shows noticeable progress in the three arrears mentioned in the conclusions of the Council of the European Union, and implements the necessary internal procedures, the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement should be signed without delay and there should be foreseen an opportunity to use some of its parts, particularly those connected with the creation of a deep and comprehensive free trade area, before the completion of the process of its ratification by all EU Member States,” reads the document.
The Ukrainian parliament also called on the EU to ensure that the EU-Ukraine Visa Facilitation Agreement is implemented strictly and in full and that the right of Ukrainian citizens to travel in the EU is respected without the humiliation of their honor and dignity.
The Verkhovna Rada also called on the EU to approve the passing to the final implementation phase of the VLAP, as well as permitting visa free travel to Ukrainian citizens as soon as all necessary conditions are fulfilled."

Then:
"Ukrainian MPs have voted to oust President Viktor Yanukovych and hold early presidential elections on 25 May.
The vote came after police stopped guarding presidential buildings, allowing protesters in, and parliament made new high-level appointments.
Mr Yanukovych said it was a "coup" and vowed not to stand down.
The vote to "remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine" was passed by 328 MPs.
Such ballots, passed by what is called constitutional majority, are binding and enter into force with immediate effect, the BBC's Ukraine analyst Olexiy Solohubenko reports.
In an address televised before the vote to impeach him, Mr Yanukovych described events in Kiev as a "coup".
He insisted he was the "lawfully elected president" and compared the actions of the opposition to the rise to power of the Nazis in 1930s Germany.
In his address Mr Yanukovych also called a raft of votes in Ukraine's parliament on Friday "illegitimate", claiming that MPs had been "beaten, pelted with stones and intimidated".
However, he did admit that that some had left his Party of the Regions, calling them "traitors".
Before the vote to oust Mr Yanukovych, Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski - one of three EU ministers who mediated between the two sides this week - tweeted that there had been "no coup in Kiev".
Mr Sikorski, along with the German and French foreign ministers, presided over talks that led to a pact on Friday between Mr Yanukovych and opposition leaders which now seems to have been overtaken by events.
The deal followed several days of violence in which dozens of people died in a police crackdown on months of protest. It called for the restoration of the 2004 constitution and the formation of a national unity government.
The agreement failed to end the protests overnight with huge crowds remaining in the Maidan calling for Mr Yanukovych's resignation.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the deal had been "sharply degraded by opposition forces' inability or lack of desire" to respect it and accused "illegal extremist groups" of taking control of Kiev, Reuters reports.
The protests first erupted in late November when President Yanukovych rejected a landmark association and trade deal with the EU in favour of closer ties with Russia."
There is a book been cited as well: Dinan, Desmond; Nugent, Neil (eds.). The European Union in Crisis. Palgrave Macmillan. which has a bit in it. I haven't read it. We are very aware of Putin's interference in Ukrainian domestic affairs and Lavrov's statement above more or less confirms the Russian petulance.
 
On 22/2/2013 it was reported that:
"The Verkhovna Rada, Ukraine's parliament, has passed the statement on the implementation of Ukraine's aspirations for European integration and the signing of the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement.
A total of 315 of the 349 MPs registered in the sitting hall supported the document on Friday.
The draft document reads that the Verkhovna Rada “within its powers, will ensure that the recommendations concerning the signing of the Association Agreement between Ukraine and the EU, which are stipulated in the resolutions of the European Parliament and the conclusions of the Council of the EU approved on December 10, 2012, at a meeting of the EU foreign ministers, will be fulfilled.”
The draft document also reads that while expecting positive results from the EU-Ukraine Summit due on February 25 and the Eastern Partnership Summit due on November 28-29, 2013, the Ukrainian parliament will assist in completing the fulfillment of the tasks agreed upon with the EU, first of all, within the EU-Ukraine Association Agenda and the EU-Ukraine Visa Liberalization Action Plan (VLAP), and will ensure that amendments to the EU-Ukraine Visa Facilitation Agreement are ratified.
The Ukrainian parliament also promised to intensify its work on the adoption of laws aimed at streamlining Ukrainian legislation with the EU’s laws, particularly those envisaged by the relevant national program for the harmonization of the Ukrainian legislation with the EU legislation, as well as those related to reforms of justice, criminal justice, and elections legislation.
“As soon as the Ukrainian side takes decisive steps and shows noticeable progress in the three arrears mentioned in the conclusions of the Council of the European Union, and implements the necessary internal procedures, the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement should be signed without delay and there should be foreseen an opportunity to use some of its parts, particularly those connected with the creation of a deep and comprehensive free trade area, before the completion of the process of its ratification by all EU Member States,” reads the document.
The Ukrainian parliament also called on the EU to ensure that the EU-Ukraine Visa Facilitation Agreement is implemented strictly and in full and that the right of Ukrainian citizens to travel in the EU is respected without the humiliation of their honor and dignity.
The Verkhovna Rada also called on the EU to approve the passing to the final implementation phase of the VLAP, as well as permitting visa free travel to Ukrainian citizens as soon as all necessary conditions are fulfilled."

Then:
"Ukrainian MPs have voted to oust President Viktor Yanukovych and hold early presidential elections on 25 May.
The vote came after police stopped guarding presidential buildings, allowing protesters in, and parliament made new high-level appointments.
Mr Yanukovych said it was a "coup" and vowed not to stand down.
The vote to "remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine" was passed by 328 MPs.
Such ballots, passed by what is called constitutional majority, are binding and enter into force with immediate effect, the BBC's Ukraine analyst Olexiy Solohubenko reports.
In an address televised before the vote to impeach him, Mr Yanukovych described events in Kiev as a "coup".
He insisted he was the "lawfully elected president" and compared the actions of the opposition to the rise to power of the Nazis in 1930s Germany.
In his address Mr Yanukovych also called a raft of votes in Ukraine's parliament on Friday "illegitimate", claiming that MPs had been "beaten, pelted with stones and intimidated".
However, he did admit that that some had left his Party of the Regions, calling them "traitors".
Before the vote to oust Mr Yanukovych, Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski - one of three EU ministers who mediated between the two sides this week - tweeted that there had been "no coup in Kiev".
Mr Sikorski, along with the German and French foreign ministers, presided over talks that led to a pact on Friday between Mr Yanukovych and opposition leaders which now seems to have been overtaken by events.
The deal followed several days of violence in which dozens of people died in a police crackdown on months of protest. It called for the restoration of the 2004 constitution and the formation of a national unity government.
The agreement failed to end the protests overnight with huge crowds remaining in the Maidan calling for Mr Yanukovych's resignation.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the deal had been "sharply degraded by opposition forces' inability or lack of desire" to respect it and accused "illegal extremist groups" of taking control of Kiev, Reuters reports.
The protests first erupted in late November when President Yanukovych rejected a landmark association and trade deal with the EU in favour of closer ties with Russia."
There is a book been cited as well: Dinan, Desmond; Nugent, Neil (eds.). The European Union in Crisis. Palgrave Macmillan. which has a bit in it. I haven't read it. We are very aware of Putin's interference in Ukrainian domestic affairs and Lavrov's statement above more or less confirms the Russian petulance.
Yes there is absolutely no doubt that Russia meddled in Ukrainian Affairs throughout Putin's Presidency. I was not trying to argue otherwise.

The point is Ukraine is located somewhat closer to Russia than America. World Powers don't really appreciate others messing in their back yards and when they do the likelihood of conflict is high. American leadership is well aware of this but they didn't care any more than the Russian's did.

The thing that annoys me is that the respective President's houses are never in danger, if they got bombed I couldn't really give a stuff. But it doesn't work like that, the Proxy Wars are always fought in the neighbourhoods' of innocent civilians in mostly innocent Countries.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Yes there is absolutely no doubt that Russia meddled in Ukrainian Affairs throughout Putin's Presidency. I was not trying to argue otherwise.

The point is Ukraine is located somewhat closer to Russia than America. World Powers don't really appreciate others messing in their back yards and when they do the likelihood of conflict is high. American leadership is well aware of this but they didn't care any more than the Russian's did.

The thing that annoys me is that the respective President's houses are never in danger, if they got bombed I couldn't really give a stuff. But it doesn't work like that, the Proxy Wars are always fought in the neighbourhoods' of innocent civilians in mostly innocent Countries.
That I fully understand and agree with. It's not just the Heads of State but the Prime Ministers and all the other politicians. That's the main reason why I have a very strong dislike of politicians.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

I put this on video on the thread, cause this's something that more or less will effected Russian and Western Political confrontation. This's also (call it coincide or not) in the eve of India told British delegation not to come.


India and China was very close toward arms clash in Ladakh. India is one of US corner Stone country that's part of Quads, for China containment. This 'surprised' trip come after Chinese FM visit Taliban Government in Kabul and visit to Pakistan.

India because all of this will not become buddy to China. They have many things to settle. However I can see this as India trying to tell everyone that they can't be push, and will work on their own Agenda. This come from Modi's administration that many in India think perhaps one of the most Pro Western (on India standard) Indian administration so far.

This should at least for US and UK become a warning for their diplomatic push on getting everyone else outside US and Allies circle, for following their efforts to isolate Russia.

India is one country that US can not afford to lose the good relationship, in their strategy on Asia Pacific. India will not become anti West for sure, but India by this tell everyone that nobody can push them.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
What the western market worries is this kind of situation on using SWIFT as political tools against Russia, will "Internationalise" CIPS. That's when CIPS can be competitors to SWIFT. It will increase the volume in CIPS, and with that potential deepening on financing options. If that happen, Western politicians really bring market alternatives that challange Western dominance in Global Financial market.
On early of this War, when Biden push Euro Zone to use SWIFT as part of sanctions to Russia, I already wrote many in Western Market worries this action will push other countries to begin find alternatives. This will push Chinese CIPS and Yuan increasingly become alternatives sooner than expected.


Now, IMF already shown that worries is not something that groundless. Other countries outside China (especially non US and Allies), are increasingly diversified their reserve holdings portion on USD. IMF put one of the reason is to avoid US Politics using their USD reserve as Political pressure.

Yuan and CIPS already for some time being campaign by China to their trade partner as alternative to USD and SWIFT. China campaign much on direct bilateral currency transaction. So far it shown only modest growth, but using SWIFT and US plus Western financial market as political tools, really begin reducing trust on other market to USD and US lead financial system.

Western Financial market will still be used by most other non western ones, no doubt about it. However the emergence of alternative market will be hasten by this sanctions. Western market practisioner worries not only loosing Russian trust, is not that big market to begin with. However the ripple effect to other non western market trust.

Sometime ago, in Iranian thread, some member ask me whether the USD and US lead market dominance will be challange soon. I said, it will not be soon, but if US regulators do something that erode the trust, and their dominance challange can be coming sooner then expected.

Sometimes US and Western politicians I felt forgot, that their biggest assests is actually their currency (thus USD and Euro) and their financial market. Which is actually bigger in influences then their Tech. That dominance based mostly on the trust.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
According to this article, the Russian commander of NBC-warfare tells that the US Navy did biological research in Indonesia, without sharing the results to the Indonesian government. There were so many violations, that the Indonesian government stopped the program in 2010.

It can be true what he says, after all there has to be a reason why the US Navy does such research in Indonesia. The official Indonesian report from 1995 is quite positive about this program.

The Naval Medical Research Unit Two (NAMRU-2) is a biomedical research laboratory of the US Navy established with the purpose to study infectious diseases of potential military significance in Asia. It is headquartered in Phnom Phen, Camboja.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group


This is the example on fluctuative condition on hydrocarbon market. Saudi's and Gulf take advantage on potential shortage of supply, especially with western market problem with Russian supply.

On the other hand Russian still come to market, and offer bargain to those who wants to get bargain price.


Previously China and Indian market that find discount from Russian. Now countries like Indonesia begin to look on that options too. In the end is back to supply and demand. When one supply getting over demand, other supply will find other demand that looking to compensate.


"I’m really sorry that cheap Russian oil is more important for Hungarian politicians than Ukrainian blood,” she wrote.

That's what Czech defense minister wrote against Hunggary decision to keep buying Russian hydrocarbon. That maybe emotional outburst, but the problem is Politicians will want to maintain their own domestic constituence problem first in the end. They will follow what's more important to their perception on their domestic constituence. For less prosperous nations, mean fighthing inflations. Perhaps the more prosperous constituences willing to bite that inflations.

That's why from begining I wrote, no matter how hard US and Allies try to sanctions Russian Goods from International market, Russian resources too important for Global demand balance. Shifting market balance will happen, because market will always try to rebalance it self.
 
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Vivendi

Well-Known Member


This is the example on fluctuative condition on hydrocarbon market. Saudi's and Gulf take advantage on potential shortage of supply, especially with western market problem with Russian supply.

On the other hand Russian still come to market, and offer bargain to those who wants to get bargain price.


Previously China and Indian market that find discount from Russian. Now countries like Indonesia begin to look on that options too. In the end is back to supply and demand. When one supply getting over demand, other supply will find other demand that looking to compensate.





That's what Czech defense minister wrote against Hunggary decision to keep buying Russian hydrocarbon. That maybe emotional outburst, but the problem is Politicians will want to maintain their own domestic constituence problem first in the end. They will follow what's more important to their perception on their domestic constituence. For less prosperous nations, mean fighthing inflations. Perhaps the more prosperous constituences willing to bite that inflations.

That's why from begining I wrote, no matter how hard US and Allies try to sanctions Russian Goods from International market, Russian resources too important for Global demand balance. Shifting market balance will happen, because market will always try to rebalance it self.
One may call the Western sanctions against Russia part of an "economic war" against Russia. The current government of Hungary, a NATO and EU country, has not been very supportive. This is of course a problem since both NATO and EU are involved. On the bright side, of the 35-40 or so countries (NATO + other allies) participating in this "sanctions war" against Russia, Hungary is one of the very few that is resisting so much.

Even if one is based in a country not participating in the sanctions against Russia one should still be careful and pay attention. When China imposed "sanctions" on Norwegian salmon after a Chinese dissident got the Nobel Peace Price, suddenly there was an increased export of salmon to Vietnam. Some of the biggest Norwegian salmon producers however decided not do this, since it was clear what was going on, and they did not want to get into trouble. Some Norwegian salmon producers were more than happy to export massive amounts of salmon to Vietnam, pretending that they did not know what was going on.

Years after this export took place, Vietnamese and Chinese citizens were arrested (and one Norwegian citizen, original Chinese but married to a Norwegian), charged for illegal import of Norwegian salmon from Vietnam to China. They are now in jail. The Norwegian police have said that this should be investigated also in Norway however due to lack of resources I don't know if the Norwegian police has started investigations into this. This particular example is not directly relevant for the text I quote above, nevertheless it demonstrates that one needs to be very careful, make sure to understand not just the local laws, but also laws in the countries one is having business with. Many global companies also have their own internal guidelines, often stricter than the local law. I recommend anybody doing business with Russian entities to be very careful.
Slik ble norsk laks smuglet inn i Kina – Dokumentar (nrk.no)
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Even if one is based in a country not participating in the sanctions against Russia one should still be careful and pay attention. When China imposed "sanctions" on Norwegian salmon after a Chinese dissident got the Nobel Peace Price, suddenly there was an increased export of salmon to Vietnam. Some of the biggest Norwegian salmon producers however decided not do this, since it was clear what was going on, and they did not want to get into trouble. Some Norwegian salmon producers were more than happy to export massive amounts of salmon to Vietnam, pretending that they did not know what was going on.
That's apple and orange situation. The problem right now is the imbalance in Hydrocarbon market due to disruption of sanction. Any Imbalance in market due to disruption in the market especially cause by Political action, will result on shifting rebalancing on Supply and Demand sources.

This is simple market mechanism.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
That's apple and orange situation.
Yes and that's why I said my example is not directly relevant. The point I was trying to make is that it's important to keep in mind that the extensive sanctions against various Russian companies and entities can have far-reaching consequences, and therefore it pays to be careful and think through what one is doing, with whom, and if one is affected, not just directly but also indirectly. Those (few) Norwegian companies that suddenly increased their salmon export to Vietnam (on the face of it, a perfectly legitimate business, according to all laws and regulations) without checking what happened with the salmon after it was exported, opened themselves up to all kinds of trouble, including potentially also legal prosecution.

As of now there are (to my knowledge) few sanctions directly related to Russian oil and gas, however the situation is fluid and may change. Also, when making a transaction, a lot is involved (as you know better than me) -- how is it going to be paid? Can one use a method of payment and banks that are not impacted by sanctions? Is the shipping company somehow affected by sanctions, either directly or indirectly? How is it with insurance? (see e.g. this post: Russia and the West for some examples on how insurance can impact trade with Russia). That's what I meant. It's very complicated, and even if an company decides that they can do this in a legal manner in all relevant jurisdictions, one must, as I pointed out above, also adhere to the company regulations that are often stricter than local laws. Finally, there is the potential risk of loss of goodwill in some parts of the world. Like it or not, Russia is rapidly becoming a pariah in many parts of the world. Just look at the long list of companies that have pulled out of Russia or at least put all investments on hold, a lot of this is fear of loss of goodwill, and bad publicity, which can lead to loss of contracts elsewhere.

It's much more complicated than just looking at pricing and basic market mechanisms.
 
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phreeky

Active Member
That's why from begining I wrote, no matter how hard US and Allies try to sanctions Russian Goods from International market, Russian resources too important for Global demand balance. Shifting market balance will happen, because market will always try to rebalance it self.
Russian energy (and probably some grain) resources will, at least to a fair extent, probably find a market. That doesn't help all of the other sectors that rely on imports/exports - imports for which they might rely on for materials or parts, exports often for economies of scale to make them viable. So there'll be all kinds of Russian businesses collapsing, and the internal customers that rely on those products being forced to go without.

The other thing to consider is that resources like oil, gas and wheat are of strategic importance and governments get involved when it comes to sourcing them, so yes there'll be alternative governments removing barriers and getting that trade happening, but that won't happen for most goods.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
much more complicated than just looking at pricing and basic market mechanisms.
No it's not. It is become complicated when the buyers and sellers mix too much politics and market needs. However if the buyers and sellers want to stay more on business side, then it is not going to be complicated.

Like it or not, Russia is rapidly becoming a pariah in many parts of the world.
Let's see on how far the many in here. If the thinkin more on US and Allies, yes it will be many. If talking on overall Global market, it is too soon to say it will be many or not.

Still that's where my point above. If you come out from economies that put political restriction mix with market business dealing with Russia, then it will become complicated. However if you don't come from that economies/market, then it is going to be less complicated.

That's where market shifting will be. Those who still want to do business with Russia, will shift their demand, to get better pricing. As Russia as supplier also need to rebalance their market. Whether the "close" market will also choose to go afther those market who still want do business with Russia, yes it can happen. Also it might not not happen, depends whether there's enough will to enlarge the trade war.


now there are (to my knowledge) few sanctions directly related to Russian oil and gas, however the situation is fluid and may change.
For time being, but too much bad blood allready on this trade war. That's why the market shifting most likely to happen in long run. In short run, well let's see who blink first.

there'll be all kinds of Russian businesses collapsing, and the internal customers that rely on those products being forced to go without.
For those in domestic consumption, it is too soon to say how much business in Russia that collapsing. So far seems mostly those related to Western consumers goods imports. Have to be seen how far the Russian effort so far since 2014 on building Import substitution industry will fare. This is only a month, it is too soon to judge how far Russian domestic economy resiliences will be. They can fail, or they can adjust. Even Iran can adjust, and they are in much longer sanctions then Russian. Still their domestic consumption still running, even with much lower quality domestic substitution goods.

It is been discussed before also on semiconductors, as I see that as Russia main weaknesses. We still don't know how far they can increase their own semiconductors industry or even get other replacement source (China come in mind).

As for their export, their export mostly asside in hydrocarbon, also in commodities (including processed metal like alluminiums and titanium) and Agricultute especially wheat. Those are materials that will be needed by global Industry. Just like in Hydrocarbon it is going to see shifting market in long run.

The big items in their export that going to be more in complicated possitions is in their defense items, including aerospace. Disruption on this will effect to their heavy industry supply chain domestically. Still they are already facing sanctions through CAATSA. So far their market position in defense reducing, but still there.

All of this is just to shown, trade sanctions/trade war asside work both ways. Also sanctions is basically market disruptions. Market disruption will force market to make adjustment, and market shifting is one of that. What happen with Russian Hydrocarbon export market shown sign that market shifting begining to happen. This is part of market adjustment.
 
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Vivendi

Well-Known Member
No it's not. It is become complicated when the buyers and sellers mix too much politics and market needs. However if the buyers and sellers want to stay more on business side, then it is not going to be complicated.
Let's agree to disagree then.

Another example on how tricky this can be, is the H&M debacle triggered by several reports on slave labor in Xinjiang, China. H&M raised a concern regarding the use of slave labor in their products (since slave labor is not acceptable in many countries, and customers may decide to not buy clothes created by slave labor). This led to boycott of H&M in China: H&M: Fashion giant sees China sales slump after Xinjiang boycott - BBC News

Personally I would never buy clothes if I knew that it had been made by slave labor. In general I go for "fair trade" type of products, whenever available: What is Fairtrade? - . Another personal example is that when China stopped buying Australian wine after Australia asked for an independent investigation on the source of the COVID pandemic (China slaps 200% tax on Australia wine amid tensions | AP News ), I decided to start buying Australian wine (and I continue doing that, damned good wine!)

Of course many people don't care about these things, but still, perhaps some economists would be surprised how many actually care about these things.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Lavrov is visiting China:
"We, together with you, and with our sympathizers will move towards a multipolar, just, democratic world order," Lavrov said in a video released by the Russian Foreign Ministry ahead of a meeting with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi.

The two ministers were shown on Chinese state TV in face masks bumping elbows in front of their national flags.

There has been no readout of their meeting from the Chinese side.

But foreign ministry spokesman Wang Wenbin later told reporters that Moscow and Beijing will continue efforts in "advancing global multipolarity and the democratisation of international relations."

Wang added that "China-Russia cooperation has no limits," repeating a line used by President Vladimir Putin and his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping to characterise ties.

"Our striving for peace has no limits, our upholding of security has no limits, our opposition towards hegemony has no limits," Wang said.
Russian FM Hails China as Part of Emerging 'Just World Order' - The Moscow Times

So the still stick to the line "China-Russia cooperation has no limits." And they are going to strive for peace and "democratisation" together. Chilling when it comes from the Russian and Chinese leadership. On a positive note it seems that China (so far) has not sent any military aid to Russia, hopefully that will not change.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Lavrov is visiting China:

Russian FM Hails China as Part of Emerging 'Just World Order' - The Moscow Times

So the still stick to the line "China-Russia cooperation has no limits." And they are going to strive for peace and "democratisation" together. Chilling when it comes from the Russian and Chinese leadership. On a positive note it seems that China (so far) has not sent any military aid to Russia, hopefully that will not change.
Probably still working on the bartering terms before any military aid might start flowing. Besides, Ukraine and China aren’t enemies. Unless there is a toilet paper shortage in China, the CCP won’t be accepting Russian currency in any significant amounts.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
To me all this speculation about a Russia/China is over played and exaggerated. Sure, both have similar concerns and views but it's unlikely that China will supply Russia with arms or provide it with other forms of assistance. China,has too much to lose and nothing to gain at this point. As pointed out in one of the talks on the Ukraine war; Russian and China still have lingering superstitions and its telling that despite years of trying to attract Chinese investment in the Russian Far East; Russia,has not been successful.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
China and Russia cooperation can only be accelareted if West (and this means especially US), push China toward that. China and Russia cooperation so far has still some lingering suspicions and reservation from Both sides.

However if US push China on some delutional thinking that threatening sanctions and increase scope of current trade friction to trade war, will make China pull back from their current stage relations with Russia. Then Washington really don't understand China especially Xi and CCP thinking.

The more you push China, the more they push back. Seems many in Wahington still thinking current China still China in 90's or early 2000. China where in period that still bidding their time for growing their power.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
As a plus, it will also be a Russian breach of contract (upstream) and the Europeans can claim damages, while switching away from Russia as a gas supply source by end 2022 — well at least by 2/3s. Germany was engineering a soft landing for Putin in these long term gas contracts, instead the idiot Putin speeded up the process of making Russia less relevant.
Recalling our last conversation on this topic.

I already talk with some traders, and we agree this is less likely Putin motives for effort to prop up Ruble exchange rate…

Russia also taking big gamble on this move, as they are also not yet getting new customers to replace Euro Zone.

In a way this is like 'Chicken' game, whoever blink first will follow others term. Or they can crash each other and both paying the prices.
Given the above news, did Russia blink first?
 
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