Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Tasman]

With out having any experience but looking at it from a logical point of view if restored quickly then it could have been something as simple as a fuse/breaker or a crew member mucking something up. If it was something serious I doubt they could have got it restored quickly. In essence no different then a fuse blowing in your car, It happens, change it, all good.

I was pleased to see the Department of Defence release an official response:

HMAS Adelaide statement | Defence News

Defence can confirm that HMAS Adelaide has experienced a power outage. Back-up power has been activated to restore essential systems. The situation is being closely monitored and the safety of the ship and the embarked personnel remains our highest priority.Following a number of incorrect...

news.defence.gov.au

Disappointing that this happened during a deployment but nowhere near as bad as first reported via social media!

Tas

 

[icelord]

With out having any experience but looking at it from a logical point of view if restored quickly then it could have been something as simple as a fuse/breaker or a crew member mucking something up. If it was something serious I doubt they could have got it restored quickly. In essence no different then a fuse blowing in your car, It happens, change it, all good.

Lets not forget, HMAS Choules was out of action for 9 months because a member of Sea Training Group knew better then a member of ships company.

STG wanted to black out the ship for power failure training, the member informed them that it doesnt work like that and needs to be shut down step by step. STG gave the old "I know what im doing" and shut down power immediately causing major damage of ships generators...requiring dry dock and cuts into the ships hull to remove and replace...all because someone knew what they were doing.

Dont ever underestimate the ability of a fool.

 

[alexsa]

Lets not forget, HMAS Choules was out of action for 9 months because a member of Sea Training Group knew better then a member of ships company.

STG wanted to black out the ship for power failure training, the member informed them that it doesnt work like that and needs to be shut down step by step. STG gave the old "I know what im doing" and shut down power immediately causing major damage of ships generators...requiring dry dock and cuts into the ships hull to remove and replace...all because someone knew what they were doing.

Dont ever underestimate the ability of a fool.

My understanding was that it was the transformers they managed to fry. You can shut those things off sometimes without frying them but it is not a ‘usual’ practice and inevitably…. as you noted ….. it fried them at great cost.

Even on merchant ships hiccups in integrated power management system can shut the ship down. The emergency power supplies should come on line in less than a minute. It appears to be another case of never let the truth get in the way of a good headline.

I see the Australian appears to be doing this to the Hunter class frigate. I think I will wait for a formal announcement from defence before I get too interested in that report.

 

[Boagrius]

I see the Australian appears to be doing this to the Hunter class frigate. I think I will wait for a formal announcement from defence before I get too interested in that report.

I spotted that too.

The classified “Engineering Team Assessment” of the $45bn Hunter-class frigate program, revealed by The Australian, should be a wake-up call to the government – without urgent political intervention, the frigates risk becoming expensive duds...

...Staggeringly, the report reveals Defence has left itself with little contractual leverage to force the company to shoulder these risks and fix the problems at its own expense.

Taxpayers now face a drawn-out design and construction process, with escalating costs and delays, and no guarantees that the ships will do what they’re supposed to.

Unfortunately, the new AUKUS partnership between Australia, Britain and the US makes it all but impossible for the Morrison government to cancel the contract as it did with the French Attack-class subs.

An Albanese government might feel freer to revisit the decision to go with the British design.

Either way, Peter Dutton or his Labor successor will have to personally take charge of efforts to get the frigate program back on track.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

(Behind paywall)

You'd have to think that if worst comes to worst we'd be well served by just piggybacking onto the USN Constellation Class program. I've heard it suggested that reviving the Hobart line might suffice, but realistically you wouldn't actually be looking at the current spec DDG - it would surely have to be an evolved version with SPY-6 and all the other bells and whistles required to keep a new build MFU relevant going forward. That said here's hoping it's all a storm in a teacup and the Hunters become the potent vessels they were promised to be.

 

[icelord]

T

I spotted that too.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

(Behind paywall)

You'd have to think that if worst comes to worst we'd be well served by just piggybacking onto the USN Constellation Class program. I've heard it suggested that reviving the Hobart line might suffice, but realistically you wouldn't actually be looking at the current spec DDG - it would surely have to be an evolved version with SPY-6 and all the other bells and whistles required to keep a new build MFU relevant going forward. That said here's hoping it's all a storm in a teacup and the Hunters become the potent vessels they were promised to be.

To far down the rabbit hole to stop production. Reduce numbers, sure but that will drive expenses up even if you offer them a different vessel which is "cheaper". Following USN on a smaller overloaded frigate which is cheaper to build in US would not be suitable politically or otherwise. The FREMM was evaluated and unsuccessful in the Tender process.

The Phase 1 Hunter class will be built and brought online. At worst the first batch are GP frigates much like the UK are doing, with Batch 2 being ASW orientated and Batch 1 return in 2040 for upgrade.

I'd rather have the GP batch 1 as you can evaluate the issues early without wasting a ton of time and money fixing every problem that will come out of the ASW Batch. But they want to go all in on first one and wonder why its a headache and media frenzy when problems arise. The AWD had issues that needed fixing and have sorted most of their class specific problems and now just have the issue of being Navantina design to worry about

As for reviving Hobart...No, been discussed at length why its a no on here already

 

[Observer27]

Quality ABC reporting right there, worth every cent of the billions they get every year Navy has put out an on the record statement to clear up the rubbish reporting around this matter

I sense from the tone of your post that you are frustrated with the ABC in general.

This sounds like a newsworthy incident that should be reported on by journalists - certainly non-ABC news outlets have covered this too (news.com.au, smh.com.au, skynews.com.au). Do you think this should not have been reported on?

As far as I can see, nothing in the ABC article is contradicted by the Department of Defence statement unlike reporting from some of the other media outlets (looking at you SMH). The Defence statement has unsurprisingly downplayed the incident as nothing-to-see here. Perhaps the ABC (like every news organisation on the planet) has sensationalized it to a degree, but the facts as reported in the ABC article seem solid and mostly sourced from the commander of the vessel. Am I missing something? What specifically do you regard as "rubbish reporting"?

When I saw this news article, I immediately came to defencetalk forums to hopefully read some insightful defense professional takes on the incident. (What might have gone wrong? How serious could the issue be given it has taken days to get the ship operational again? etc.) Sadly, the immediate response from a "verified defense pro" appears to just be unwarranted ABC bashing. I'm a bit disappointed.

So... that said. What might have gone wrong? How serious could the issue be given it has taken days to get the ship operational again? If external communications are affected, could a power spike have cause secondary damage to comms equipment?

 

[alexsa]

I spotted that too.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

(Behind paywall)

You'd have to think that if worst comes to worst we'd be well served by just piggybacking onto the USN Constellation Class program. I've heard it suggested that reviving the Hobart line might suffice, but realistically you wouldn't actually be looking at the current spec DDG - it would surely have to be an evolved version with SPY-6 and all the other bells and whistles required to keep a new build MFU relevant going forward. That said here's hoping it's all a storm in a teacup and the Hunters become the potent vessels they were promised to be.

I think the T26 will be the best option in the end noting the FREMM is smaller than the Hunter and would have more issues carrying the systems and power supplies desired. Part of the issue is that defence accepted more risk and are trying to incorporate more systems at the get go with the batch I build. I understand the original intent was the first batch was intended to be minimal changes.

There is a lot of work going into this and if they get it right it will be a very good capability. Time may be the issue.

However, my faith in the Australian to report objectively is below zero. Let see what comes out of Senate Estimates or DOD directly.

 

[Boagrius]

I think the T26 will be the best option in the end noting the FREMM is smaller than the Hunter and would have more issues carrying the systems and power supplies desired. Part of the issue is that defence accepted more risk and are trying to incorporate more systems at the get go with the batch I build. I understand the original intent was the first batch was intended to be minimal changes.

There is a lot of work going into this and if they get it right it will be a very good capability. Time may be the issue.

However, my faith in the Australian to report objectively is below zero. Let see what comes out of Senate Estimates or DOD directly.

No argument here. On paper at least, the Hunter ought to be an extraordinarily capable ASW (and, apparently, AAW) vessel. The kicker to my mind is time - it is not on our side on this one and I am sure we would all like to see these ships in the water yesterday given the current and emerging strategic environment. We can ill afford significant delays and so on, but time shall tell if they come to pass.

 

[StingrayOZ]

So... that said. What might have gone wrong? How serious could the issue be given it has taken days to get the ship operational again? If external communications are affected, could a power spike have cause secondary damage to comms equipment?

Its all speculation at this point.

It recently came out of refit, a significant refit, which included changes to propulsion and systems. The ship was able to make it to Tonga, it was on leaving it lost power. The timing of the disaster was not chosen, so its not clear how ready/sorted the ship was. Presumably, good enough, but perhaps not proven through shakedowns and trials.

The fact that primary and secondary generation went off line, seems to indicate an issue with electric distribution, not with the mechanical engines.
Now that some power has been restored, it they can probably have an idea of the problem and how to fix it.

Don't think comms equipment was damaged is there a report of that, rather the entire electrical system was offline. Sudden power failures can damage equipment (brownout, improper shutdown etc). The ship will need a complete check anyway. The investigation will take time, even if they have a pretty good idea of what caused it.

For all we know it could have been user error. Or component failure. Or a known potential issue, wear and tear or something still being chased down from refit.

Certainly the ships have been used heavily and racking up the miles and hours at sea. These are heavily used platforms. With only two ships of this type there isn't a lot of down time or hulls to spread the load.

 

[Observer27]

It recently came out of refit, a significant refit, which included changes to propulsion and systems. The ship was able to make it to Tonga, it was on leaving it lost power. The timing of the disaster was not chosen, so its not clear how ready/sorted the ship was. Presumably, good enough, but perhaps not proven through shakedowns and trials.
...
Don't think comms equipment was damaged is there a report of that, rather the entire electrical system was offline. Sudden power failures can damage equipment (brownout, improper shutdown etc). The ship will need a complete check anyway. The investigation will take time, even if they have a pretty good idea of what caused it.

Thanks. I wasn't aware of the refit and the possibility the ship departed before full shakedown.

The issue regarding communications was in the article as a reported email written by the commander after several days of repair stating: "We are still experiencing issues with external communications".

 

[ADMk2]

I was pleased to see the Department of Defence release an official response:

HMAS Adelaide statement | Defence News

Defence can confirm that HMAS Adelaide has experienced a power outage. Back-up power has been activated to restore essential systems. The situation is being closely monitored and the safety of the ship and the embarked personnel remains our highest priority.Following a number of incorrect...

news.defence.gov.au

Disappointing that this happened during a deployment but nowhere near as bad as first reported via social media!

Tas

Not as bad if you choose to believe the official line…

Unofficially however, here is the new ablutions facilities on HMAS Adelaide…

 

[oldsig127]

Not as bad if you choose to believe the official line…

Unofficially however, here is the new ablutions facilities on HMAS Adelaide…

Amusing page with a worthy purpose, not including factual memes

oldsig

 

[DDG38]

Not as bad if you choose to believe the official line…

Unofficially however, here is the new ablutions facilities on HMAS Adelaide…

Not like you can dig a hole in the dirt and take a dump. Given the time delay in information this has probably been fixed by now. More "laughs" from a social media page that could be using their audience reach better for more worthy causes.

 

[Rock the kasbah]

Claims sailors are enduring scorching conditions to repair 'stranded' Australian warship

Exhausted naval technicians claim they are battling temperatures of up to 50deg Celsius while trying to repair a crippled warship which also has a Covid-19 outbreak on board.

www.rnz.co.nz

As a rag and stick man I am a bit confused. Obviously on a yacht it's easy to have more than 1 mode of propulsion.
It sounds like she's dead in the water. Shouldn't a warship have back up propulsion and steering capabilities?

 

[DDG38]

Claims sailors are enduring scorching conditions to repair 'stranded' Australian warship

Exhausted naval technicians claim they are battling temperatures of up to 50deg Celsius while trying to repair a crippled warship which also has a Covid-19 outbreak on board.

www.rnz.co.nz

As a rag and stick man I am a bit confused. Obviously on a yacht it's easy to have more than 1 mode of propulsion.
It sounds like she's dead in the water. Shouldn't a warship have back up propulsion and steering capabilities?

"Some of the marine technicians are experiencing heat exhaustion, as they pull 12- to 14-hour days in 50-degree engine rooms," a person familiar with the situation says.
"The ship isn't fixed; it cannot move and there is more for them to fix!" the defence source told the ABC, speaking on condition of anonymity."
In other words, no members of Command staff who have all the information and the full picture are making these comments. Warship power systems are inherently complex and take time to fix. And working in enclosed engineering spaces with no ventilation is like working in Hades. In other news, water is wet and the sky is blue.

 

[John Newman]

"Some of the marine technicians are experiencing heat exhaustion, as they pull 12- to 14-hour days in 50-degree engine rooms," a person familiar with the situation says.
"The ship isn't fixed; it cannot move and there is more for them to fix!" the defence source told the ABC, speaking on condition of anonymity."
In other words, no members of Command staff who have all the information and the full picture are making these comments. Warship power systems are inherently complex and take time to fix. And working in enclosed engineering spaces with no ventilation is like working in Hades. In other news, water is wet and the sky is blue.

No air con? We’ve all become a bit soft these days.

I remember being a kid in the back seat of Dads old 1960 FB Holden on stinking hot days, sitting on burning hot vinyl seats (no seat belts of course too), sweating away.

And Dad telling is it was time for the “4 x 40 air con” approach, that was “4 windows down and go at 40 Mph!”

 

[Observer27]

"Some of the marine technicians are experiencing heat exhaustion, as they pull 12- to 14-hour days in 50-degree engine rooms," a person familiar with the situation says.
"The ship isn't fixed; it cannot move and there is more for them to fix!" the defence source told the ABC, speaking on condition of anonymity."
In other words, no members of Command staff who have all the information and the full picture are making these comments. Warship power systems are inherently complex and take time to fix. And working in enclosed engineering spaces with no ventilation is like working in Hades. In other news, water is wet and the sky is blue.

Totally agree that water is wet, the sky is blue, and working on a warship can have it's down days.

And despite heat exhaustion potentially being a serious safety issue, I assume leadership would be managing the risks appropriately.

Yes, anonymity is cause to take the reporting with a level of skepticism, but would the ABC have published without vetting their source or obtaining some other corroborating data? I personally doubt it.

Just because Command staff aren't putting out press statements that their warship is dead in the water (I'd be surprised if they did) doesn't mean it's not true. Defence statements do not contradict in any way the possibility that the ship cannot steam under it's own power. On the balance of probabilities, isn't it likely that, exactly as reported, "the ship isn't fixed" and "it cannot move" with no confirmation or denial from command staff or Defence officials?

 

[John Newman]

Yes, anonymity is cause to take the reporting with a level of skepticism, but would the ABC have published without vetting their source or obtaining some other corroborating data? I personally doubt it.

The ABC vetting sources? Fact checking? There would be a first time for everything....

Certain media outlets (inc the ABC), and certain journalists (and I use the word journalist very lightly), often do very negative Defence reporting.

Selective reporting of facts, fragments of the truth, but not the whole truth, selective editing of quotes, etc, etc.

To believe otherwise is rather naive.


And by the way, the ABC actually has a page on its website for “corrections & clarifications”.

Corrections & Clarifications

ABC corrections & clarifications.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Rock the kasbah]

"Some of the marine technicians are experiencing heat exhaustion, as they pull 12- to 14-hour days in 50-degree engine rooms," a person familiar with the situation says.
"The ship isn't fixed; it cannot move and there is more for them to fix!" the defence source told the ABC, speaking on condition of anonymity."
In other words, no members of Command staff who have all the information and the full picture are making these comments. Warship power systems are inherently complex and take time to fix. And working in enclosed engineering spaces with no ventilation is like working in Hades. In other news, water is wet and the sky is blue.

You forgot the last bit
Water is wet, the sky is blue and power gives way to sail.

 

[Milne Bay]

Aren't the LHD's powered by electrically driven podded outboards which also act as the rudders?
If there is no power generation, then the ship cannot move or even maneuver.
For back-up power to also be out means something very substantial has failed.
Basic ventilation on the lower decks without power would also be difficult.
Doesn't look good
MB