USAF News and Discussion

Terran

Well-Known Member
To be honest the only suitable options for a 4.5 generation fighter is either a increased order of f-15ex's or perhaps Lockheed could offer a US version of the Korean kfx.
You forgot F16 block 70 or FA18.
F15EX has the downside of significant price climb. Twin engines means double the most expensive maintenance heavy parts this also plays into FA18. This was why the F16 was created to begin with. FA50 is interesting but the question is in that regard same for T7 or Textron Scorpion is this a multi role fighter or a fast light COIN? If fast light coin OKAY just about any jet trainer will do the job. Yet it really doesn’t seem like a job needed with the Big DOD refocused on great power. If you want to argue for a dedicated A10 replacement then realistically your better bet would be a smaller force of Air Land Scorpion type aircraft.
if a Multi role fighter more medium weight with top radar and payload.
What seems to be wanted isnt a substantial improvement in the mechanical side it’s in the IT side. The ability to plug new systems into the fighter or upload apps. To allegory think of a computer pre2010 vs a modern app based systems. If you back in the day wanted to add a printer there were disks or CDroms. This plug or that dedicated ports that might need to be installed and the like. Today plug in the printer connect by Bluetooth load an app. Done. As such assuming this even happens it might just be a F16 block 80. The same overall airframe but with new brains. Again assuming this doesn’t die on the vine.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
To be honest the only suitable options for a 4.5 generation fighter is either a increased order of f-15ex's or perhaps Lockheed could offer a US version of the Korean kfx.
No, a clean sheet design can quite easily do the job, as long as both the USAF and the defence primes are willing to do things far more efficiently.

Instead of the standard USAF approach of speccing the hell out of a new capability with new fangled unproven high risk, high cost technologies, they use MOTS / COTS technologies instead and then use incremental upgrades. Design the airframe and its systems in such a way, that the systems and subsystems are easily and quickly accessible for quick extraction and replacement. It doesn't take long to do an engine change, so you shouldn't have to strip down part of an airframe just to access electronics for upgrades or replacement. For example, these days AESA radar antenna can last for ages without replacement, however the transmitter / receiver hardware may have to be replaced at some stage. Same with the aircraft comms units. If that hardware is plug and play then it's a quick replacement and software upgrade via an app. Any other upgrades are just software via an app undate. It's simple, quick and easy.
 

the concerned

Active Member
The cost of developing another clean sheet aircraft would still run into the billions and take the best part of atleast 5yrs. How many extra f-15's could that have purchased quicker. Also the Korean kfx is not the FA-50 but a medium fighter designed to replace the F16 with a significant amount of US involvement. With regards more f16's you would probably be looking at the F21 offered to India more than the block70.
 

Julian 82

Active Member
No, a clean sheet design can quite easily do the job, as long as both the USAF and the defence primes are willing to do things far more efficiently.

Instead of the standard USAF approach of speccing the hell out of a new capability with new fangled unproven high risk, high cost technologies, they use MOTS / COTS technologies instead and then use incremental upgrades. Design the airframe and its systems in such a way, that the systems and subsystems are easily and quickly accessible for quick extraction and replacement. It doesn't take long to do an engine change, so you shouldn't have to strip down part of an airframe just to access electronics for upgrades or replacement. For example, these days AESA radar antenna can last for ages without replacement, however the transmitter / receiver hardware may have to be replaced at some stage. Same with the aircraft comms units. If that hardware is plug and play then it's a quick replacement and software upgrade via an app. Any other upgrades are just software via an app undate. It's simple, quick and easy.
The F-16XL cranked arrow design seemed very interesting at the time. It was a shame it lost out to the F-15E. If they could take that design and combine it with the Block 70 avionics, it would seem to offer considerable performance advantages over the current F-16 fleet while still enjoying the lower maintenance costs associated with a single engine.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The F-16XL cranked arrow design seemed very interesting at the time. It was a shame it lost out to the F-15E. If they could take that design and combine it with the Block 70 avionics, it would seem to offer considerable performance advantages over the current F-16 fleet while still enjoying the lower maintenance costs associated with a single engine.
Ah yes, a design that had great potential. It's a shame that it wasn't carried through. GD did a great a job on a break through design. This is a 1983 article in the USAF Magazine about a ride in one.


 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Perhaps a serious analysis of the F35 CPFH is needed to see how it could be reduced as this seems to be the biggest concern, not the capital cost of the jet itself (A version especially). Can’t see a clean sheet design coming in at much less than $80 million unless it is devoid of significant capability. Might as well buy new F-16s or Gripens, surely cheaper and almost as capable as any new clean sheet design with affordability in mind.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Looks like the USAF has found a new use for the AT-6 Wolverine. Meet the AT-6E, the Airborne Extensible Relay Over-Horizon Network, or AEROnet. The first one has just been delivered to the USAF. Whether Congress will fund this program is another story because they refused to fund the AT-6B/C program.


DARPA has come out with an interesting UAV project, the LongShot. It is intended to have the ability to employ multiple air-to-air weapons thereby extending the reach of fighters.

 

Terran

Well-Known Member
The cost of developing another clean sheet aircraft would still run into the billions and take the best part of atleast 5yrs. How many extra f-15's could that have purchased quicker. Also the Korean kfx is not the FA-50 but a medium fighter designed to replace the F16 with a significant amount of US involvement. With regards more f16's you would probably be looking at the F21 offered to India more than the block70.
F15EX is a separate issue. It’s need is primarily as the F15 fleet of the US is the oldest and has structural problems that prohibit extending its life beyond 2030 without becoming cost prohibitive enough that is becomes cheaper to buy F15EX.
FA50 is on potentially the table as Lockheed already has buy in.
KFX is a whole different ball game it looks like a best bet but only is you can clear the negotiations to license and get production. It’s probably as close to the perfect platform to match the wants yet I doubt that this will survive the month.
This is basically an analysis of alternatives looking into if the USAF has the right mix in mind. The other two lines being continued F35A to 1700+ or cap at over 1040+ F35 with about 650+ New F16.
F21 is a package, it’s a highly tailored block 70 F16 with features that the USAF doesn’t need or want. The biggest change from F16 to F21 is drogue refueling. The USAF standard is boom. India has primarily drogue based on the IL78. The USAF has used flying boom for decades. All the rest of the package is pretty much offered on block 70. Yet that still doesn’t address the want at the core of the study. Avionics interface upgrades.
The USAFs goal was a 50/50 force split in the next decade of 5th and 6th Gen to 4th Gen.
I am not against buying new F16 Block 70 if needed, but it’s a question of do we need that many? At ~650 units one can justify a clean sheet but reduce that number it’s a harder justification. Favoring off the shelf in production that is F16 block 70.
We have a substantial legacy Viper force with some less than 20 years old now. I get that not everyone is happy with F35 for all missions yet it’s far better than what the media likes to say. It’s a very capable platform that is mostly just having teething issues. The F22 issue comes to mind here when congress, two Presidents and a sec Def were short sighted and cancelled the Raptor because they didn’t see a need in the cards and were more focused on asymmetric threats than possible great power competition. Now with great power front and center why repeat that?
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
If I remember correctly the F117 was kept until 2016 in type 1000 storage. Meaning they could be reactivated in a short period.
Since then that requirement was dropped, yet clearly some of the fleet is retained for some degree of missions.
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
Allowing the Pegasus to conduct limited refueling over the Atlantic and Pacific will definitely free up other aircraft in the aging fleet. The KC46 has also been succesfully tested on the C17
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Makes a lot of sense..

Australia, UK, Korea, Turkey... Already integrated and flying and developed. In service for 10 years and sorted. Battlespace tested.

Commonality with the P8 fleet. Boeing has spare capacity. Purchasing it will likely get other interested European nations in to some orders. Commonality with existing commercial planes, trained techs can be found at every commercial airport on the planet. Cruise speed ~300kmph faster. Operating costs would probably a quarter of a E3. Availability would be miles better. While a bit smaller, they could probably go for more than 1 for 1. Comfort I imagine would be a big improvement as well if perhaps not as roomy.

The 707 has been out of production for 30 years (and not many were produced in its last years). They are going to have to do something. This should have been replaced 20 years ago onto another commercial platform (767 seemed like a no brainer).
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Makes a lot of sense..

Australia, UK, Korea, Turkey... Already integrated and flying and developed. In service for 10 years and sorted. Battlespace tested.

Commonality with the P8 fleet. Boeing has spare capacity. Purchasing it will likely get other interested European nations in to some orders. Commonality with existing commercial planes, trained techs can be found at every commercial airport on the planet. Cruise speed ~300kmph faster. Operating costs would probably a quarter of a E3. Availability would be miles better. While a bit smaller, they could probably go for more than 1 for 1. Comfort I imagine would be a big improvement as well if perhaps not as roomy.

The 707 has been out of production for 30 years (and not many were produced in its last years). They are going to have to do something. This should have been replaced 20 years ago onto another commercial platform (767 seemed like a no brainer).
Knowing the USAF, they will probably over complicate the entire project by deciding to fit the same systems that are currently on the E-7 to the 767 instead and end up not having Aircraft to about 2040.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Knowing the USAF, they will probably over complicate the entire project by deciding to fit the same systems that are currently on the E-7 to the 767 instead and end up not having Aircraft to about 2040.
I have heard elsewhere that the USAF have been hanging out for AESA technology to mature further before making the next leap (something about S-band T/R modules of a particular power density or some such). Hearsay at this point I confess but would explain the persistence with Sentry.
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
First absolutely agree with This would make a lot of Sense for the USAF.
Boeing is about to start production of E7 for our allies in the RAF.
That means a warm production line, with 737 NG available for conversion or new production. Degrees of commonality with existing in service aircraft (P8 is based on huge 737-800), C40 Clipper is based of 737-700C
As to tempting other European buyers... not quite sure about that. The UK and France pretty much placed identical orders for the E3 back in the day and both are aging. The UK has placed its order for 5 E7. France on the other hand I has developed a case of Not invented here syndrome. If they were to buy, I expect it to be an Airbus bird with a Erieye radar. Other European countries have now an expanding number of options as business jet builders have begun offering smaller more affordable AEW capabilities that in the past would have limited Airforces to E2, Hawkeye, E3 Sentry or Soviet models.
Italy for example uses the IAI Eitam a GV airframe with conformal Radar arrays also used in other specialized roles by the USN and Australia.
Greece uses the Embraer R99.
Sweden the Saab 340.
right now the bulk of European AEW power is the 15 E3 operated by NATO as joint. Soit could shift or not.
Knowing the USAF, they will probably over complicate the entire project by deciding to fit the same systems that are currently on the E-7 to the 767 instead and end up not having Aircraft to about 2040.
They tried that it was the E10. The main reason this might work is in light of F15EX we have a USAF who seems to be looking at the dynamics differently. Questioning if High refit and low availability is reasonable vs off the shelf systems that offer similar capacity at a short term high investment but long term longer lifespans.
707 based platforms are old today. KC135 dates to the days of Kennedy and Ike. It’s engines are the main issues for the airframe. The last new variants of the series were the E6 and the navy is already looking at options to replace those.

The USAF is already showing signs that it’s large legacy support aircraft based off now long retired commercial liners are sooner rather than later slated to retire.
E4B
KC135

The question seem to be based on what is more survivable to the role.
I have heard elsewhere that the USAF have been hanging out for AESA technology to mature further before making the next leap (something about S-band T/R modules of a particular power density or some such). Hearsay at this point I confess but would explain the persistence with Sentry.
When JSTARS recap was canceled the USAF said that they felt it just wasn’t survivable vs a near peer foe. This shouldn’t have been a real shocker. As far back as the beginning of development of the system we know as JSTARS the USAF worked on a stealth version, Tacit Blue under the Battlefield Surveillance Aircraft-Experimental. In the end they put the budget friendly 707 based E8 in to service yet were always working in the black as we know on things like the RQ170, Polecat, Darkstar meant to service the stealth JSTAR role.
If you think about it the same holds true for any commercial airliner or business jet or cargo plane based platform. We have already seen cases where P8 and EP8 have been harassed by fighters around Russia and China. Seen Iran shoot down a Global hawk and as far back as 1969 when a Navy EC 121 was shot down by the DPRK we have known AEW are not untouchable. So part of why in my mind probably has to do with the question of is it worth it?
If it worth the investment of billions of taxpayers dollars for a platform that at best will have limited effect in the front lines?
IMO E3 or E7 if a fight with even a less than peer comes in the future, will have to stand off and be relegated to serving as a flying traffic management system in safe air. Fourth generation fighters, tankers and the like would fall into the same position operating to maintain allied airspace. They can’t go to the front without being destroyed. Fifth generation fighters and VLO platforms would be operating in that contested zone between the enemy stronghold airspace and allied stronghold fighting to establish a foothold and push the other out. In this context AEW and JSTAR in contested air are stealthy drones with datalinks and LPOI radars networking between fighters and bombers.
So is the cost of a totally new AEW platform worth it? Probably not. But off the shelf maintaining of that capability is. So the USAF has to date worked to keep E3 as the Navy worked to Keep E2. Yet with issues of readiness due to age of the E3 airframe it’s getting harder to justify. Buying off the shelf could buy back that capability.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
When JSTARS recap was canceled the USAF said that they felt it just wasn’t survivable vs a near peer foe. This shouldn’t have been a real shocker. As far back as the beginning of development of the system we know as JSTARS the USAF worked on a stealth version, Tacit Blue under the Battlefield Surveillance Aircraft-Experimental. In the end they put the budget friendly 707 based E8 in to service yet were always working in the black as we know on things like the RQ170, Polecat, Darkstar meant to service the stealth JSTAR role.
If you think about it the same holds true for any commercial airliner or business jet or cargo plane based platform. We have already seen cases where P8 and EP8 have been harassed by fighters around Russia and China. Seen Iran shoot down a Global hawk and as far back as 1969 when a Navy EC 121 was shot down by the DPRK we have known AEW are not untouchable. So part of why in my mind probably has to do with the question of is it worth it?
If it worth the investment of billions of taxpayers dollars for a platform that at best will have limited effect in the front lines?
IMO E3 or E7 if a fight with even a less than peer comes in the future, will have to stand off and be relegated to serving as a flying traffic management system in safe air. Fourth generation fighters, tankers and the like would fall into the same position operating to maintain allied airspace. They can’t go to the front without being destroyed. Fifth generation fighters and VLO platforms would be operating in that contested zone between the enemy stronghold airspace and allied stronghold fighting to establish a foothold and push the other out. In this context AEW and JSTAR in contested air are stealthy drones with datalinks and LPOI radars networking between fighters and bombers.
So is the cost of a totally new AEW platform worth it? Probably not. But off the shelf maintaining of that capability is. So the USAF has to date worked to keep E3 as the Navy worked to Keep E2. Yet with issues of readiness due to age of the E3 airframe it’s getting harder to justify. Buying off the shelf could buy back that capability.
Yep, no question that traditional AEW designs would have to operate a considerable distance from the FEBA to stay alive against a peer threat. That said, their role as data nodes, battle managers and comms relays still strikes me as important. I can also see them proving useful in rear echelon areas for low altitude ISR coverage eg. cruise missile defence. Further forward it seems readily apparent that a distributed network of more survivable sensor nodes is the way ahead (ref ABMS).
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
They tried that it was the E10. The main reason this might work is in light of F15EX we have a USAF who seems to be looking at the dynamics differently. Questioning if High refit and low availability is reasonable vs off the shelf systems that offer similar capacity at a short term high investment but long term longer lifespans.
707 based platforms are old today. KC135 dates to the days of Kennedy and Ike. It’s engines are the main issues for the airframe. The last new variants of the series were the E6 and the navy is already looking at options to replace those.
The E-10 got far to ambitious, they tried to replace 4 Aircraft with one.
E-3
E-8
RC-135
E-4B
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
At first then it became one platform 4 variants. End game the same.
The reason this makes sense now is the UK buy, the British have an order for 3 new build E7 two conversions, if the USAF followed through with the push than Now is the time and the whole benefit is built on the 737-700 AEW. If they tried for packaging into 767 that justification that they can use the RAF to warm the seat as it were is lost. The price shoots up. This is the logic that was set for the F15EX. Off the shelf active line cheaper in the long run to replace aged birds with new ones than to have to rebuild or start from scratch.
 
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